First Japan layout Q's - also, switching from HO to N

[spacecadet]

Hi all,

 

First post here - I've been reading a lot and think I have a basic plan, but still wondering about a few things.

 

I've got a 4x8 table in my basement that right now just has an HO scale oval on it.  I've always modeled HO but I've never had the space for a decent layout so it's really given me nothing but frustration over the years.  I figure I can put 4x8 to pretty good use on an N scale layout, though, and I've been interested in Japanese trains ever since my first visit there in 2000.

 

I'd like to model both shinkansen and commuter trains/freight, so I'm planning to have two separate lines with a shared yard, with the shinkansen running completely on a viaduct.  I'm hoping to fit in a somewhat convincing city on one side of the table and a suburban/rural area on the other, with maybe some freight ops going on between the rural and urban area as well (I haven't decided what yet).  I'm not a total stickler for absolute realism so while there are certain things I want to get right (like having the shinkansen on a dedicated line), I'll probably be mixing up whatever kinds of trains I like (and have personally ridden) within each line.  And I'm not sure if I'd be building permanent scenery or going the temporary layout route (one of the things that appealed to me about modeling Japan in the first place).

 

I don't have a track plan yet but I'll probably be buying the Kato track plan book for ideas.  I'm thinking of basically having two separate double track loops (the local tracks might be a figure eight) with a yard or terminal, and maybe a couple trunks running off for freight.

 

I guess my questions are:

 

a) Am I trying to do too much on a 4x8 layout?  I'm used to HO where people would tell me it's basically impossible to include two separate double-track passenger lines, a yard, plus freight, and two separate scenes on a 4x8 table.

 

b) What sort of freight ops might be realistic and doable in this sort of layout?  Especially keeping in mind passenger service would be the primary goal of the layout.  Freight service is one thing I know almost nothing about in Japan, except that all the freight trains I've seen have been short and totally mixed.  Not sure how I'd model this.

 

c) Any other considerations moving from HO to N?  Everything basically the same, just smaller?  DCC and all work the same, with the same equipment?  I know Japanese trains aren't always very DCC friendly, but I'm going to try to stick with stuff that is; I'm starting cold so it'll take me a while just to get all the stuff on Kato's DCC-friendly list that I want.

 

Thanks for any help or advice.

[David]

a) Am I trying to do too much on a 4x8 layout?  I'm used to HO where people would tell me it's basically impossible to include two separate double-track passenger lines, a yard, plus freight, and two separate scenes on a 4x8 table.

 

No, I think 4x8 is quite a good space. One aspect that really helps is that Japan (especially in urban areas) has really dense track work, and with a lack of zoning you get all kinds of buildings right up beside the tracks. Combined with many narrow streets you get something that actually looks prototypically even when squeezed into a small space.

 

Putting the Shinkansen on a raised level will let you run the other lines under it. I suggest using the broadest viaduct curves you can for this to ensure good looks and running. One element you'll want to consider is what length of train you want to run (Shinkansen and regular are seperate so you can decide them independently). Since a lot of your running will be centered around passenger service, you'll need your stations and yard big enough to fit the train (this isn't Canada where VIA just stops the train with half the cars hanging off the end of the platform). I use 135mm per car as a rule of thumb - full 10 car commuter trains are thus quite long, at about 4 1/2 feet (16 car Shinkansen stations are far worse though). Do you want just 2 stations on your layout, or more then that?

 

b) What sort of freight ops might be realistic and doable in this sort of layout?  Especially keeping in mind passenger service would be the primary goal of the layout.  Freight service is one thing I know almost nothing about in Japan, except that all the freight trains I've seen have been short and totally mixed.  Not sure how I'd model this.

 

To the best of my knowledge a lot of it is actually unit trains, the Japanese having mostly decided that sorting freight cars in a yard is not efficient (and have been moving to reduce them). Instead you get stuff like oil, limestone, cement, coal, jet fuel and other resources going straight from producer to consumer. The other big one, and the one you would probably model for a lot of urban areas, is container trains. Pulled by something like an EF210, Japanese container trains can carry a variety of container sizes (but mostly carry 12 foot containers, 5 to a car). These are increasingly loaded and unloaded not by dropping them in a yard and sorting them, but by pulling into a siding, letting small forklifts go at it without any uncoupling being done, and then driving off when they're done. This can result in empty cars being pulled along (as well as 2 cars that combined only have 1 cars worth of load), but the time saved allows the train to be competitive (if time doesn't matter, you can just send it cheaply by ship since much of Japan is coastal).

 

While there are some dedicated freight lines, a lot of stuff gets moved during the off hours through passenger rail. A container train running through a passenger station (not stopping of course) is a common thing to see. A lot of switching/operations are centered around stations in Japan (instead of sidings out in the middle of nowhere). A common feature is having center tracks (either before or splitting at the station) through which express and freight trains can pass even if another train is stopped at the station.

 

c) Any other considerations moving from HO to N?  Everything basically the same, just smaller?  DCC and all work the same, with the same equipment?  I know Japanese trains aren't always very DCC friendly, but I'm going to try to stick with stuff that is; I'm starting cold so it'll take me a while just to get all the stuff on Kato's DCC-friendly list that I want.

 

I'm not sure on this one. You'll want to be careful with any power packs you have - HO uses higher voltage, and while American N scale trains are often ok taking 16V or more, Japanese N scale is really designed for 12V and some equipment won't react kindly to "more is better" American voltage. DCC wise the Kato DCC friendly list is certainly a good entry point. Overall I've found that Kato equipment is fairly close to what they sell in America, so the transition easier. Keep in mind that the DCC friendly locomotives (which use drop in boards intended for Kato's American locomotives) do require some modification; sometimes some plastic needs to be cut down to make space, and sometimes LEDs need to be extended/retracted. The EMUs are straight forward and use a set of Digitrax decoders designed specifically for Kato (EM13, FL11, FR12). As far as converting non-DCC friendly, a lot of Kato stock seems to be fairly straight forward, however some people report mysterious issues trying to get Tomix items working with DCC.

 

Also, do you have any plans for a specific area or type of equipment? Maybe it won't happen with you, but with the prototypically accurate nature of Japanese trains (sets are exact copies of the actual formations, and are even repackage and resold when real world changes occur) there is a tendancy to eventually want trains that actually appear on the same tracks/location. Kato's DCC tends to Shinkansen (makes life easy for you), JR East Tokyo commuter trains, some JR West and JR Central (especially the Tōkaidō line, which runs into JR East), and not much in the way of private railways or the island JR groups.

[spacecadet]

I use 135mm per car as a rule of thumb - full 10 car commuter trains are thus quite long, at about 4 1/2 feet (16 car Shinkansen stations are far worse though). Do you want just 2 stations on your layout, or more then that?

 

Ideally I want more, but my sense of scale with N isn't quite up to par yet so I'm not sure if that's going to be possible.  What I'd really like is a shared terminal that could double in most senses as a yard for storage, a shared station for shinkansen and commuter lines, and then another station in the rural zone for commuter lines.  So that's really two stations plus the terminal, which I'm just picturing as six or so parallel tracks with platforms and shelters.

 

The other big one, and the one you would probably model for a lot of urban areas, is container trains. Pulled by something like an EF210, Japanese container trains can carry a variety of container sizes (but mostly carry 12 foot containers, 5 to a car). These are increasingly loaded and unloaded not by dropping them in a yard and sorting them, but by pulling into a siding, letting small forklifts go at it without any uncoupling being done, and then driving off when they're done.

 

Sounds pretty easy!

 

Also, do you have any plans for a specific area or type of equipment?

 

I think my general idea is just playing off what I know, which is the Tokaido shinkansen line and then the area between Tokyo and Ibaraki prefecture (combined together into parallel tracks for at least some of the route).  Something like the Joban line, but obviously heavily compressed.  And I am trying to intentionally *not* call it the Joban line in my own head, so I can hopefully avoid wanting it to be too prototypical or limited in what I can run.  I just want it to remind me of trips I've taken myself, and things I've seen, and I like the variety of having both the urban and rural areas but without too much terrain to make things difficult to build.

 

I'm sure I won't be running 16 car trains.  I think 6-8 cars is probably more reasonable for a 4x8 layout.  It seems like most of the sets these days come with 4 cars, and then you buy the 4 car add-on set.  (I do remember a few years ago it seemed like most of the manufacturers gave you more cars in the initial set, but now it seems pretty common that it's just 4.)  So that's probably what I'll do, just get one basic set and one add-on per train.  If I can ever manage to double the length of the layout, then maybe I'll move to 16 cars, but I've already been waiting to do that for about 20 years with my HO stuff and it just never happens :)

 

Anyway, thanks for your detailed answers.

[David]

Keep in mind that 16 cars is mostly the Shinkansen trains (and even then there are shorter configurations, especially for the "mini-shinkansen", 20m high speed trains that are designed to operate both on the regular high speed rail network, and on some regular lines that have been changed to standard gauge - they're basically Shinkansen with a smaller loading gauge and usually run in 8 car sets so they could reuse the existing stations).

 

On the regular commuter lines 10 car and below formations are about the norm - it should be noted that unlike locomotive pulled passenger trains, where the actual arrangement is subject to (potentially frequent) change, the EMU formations, especially the larger ones, have been carefully planned from the factory. If you look carefully at the sets you'll notice the cars often have specific subtypes (this is reflected in the roof and undercarrage details) - each car is different, and some trains don't have a single exact duplicate. Functions like power pickup, inversion and motor drive can be split among different cars. When railroads decide to take an older EMU and reduce the length for use on a secondary line they need to carefully decide (and sometimes make modifications or upgrades) so that it will work. These changes can sometimes result in the new cars even being given an entirely new classification.

 

From a modeling perspective you shouldn't let this stop you from running smaller trains, especially when you don't own all the pieces and are just running what you have (Tomix likes to make crazy small starter sets, while Kato likes to make 4 car sets that feature a middle car that would only be practical on something with 8 or more cars). However it does mean that prototypically speaking you don't often see really big trains outside of the Shinkansen - land to build stations is expensive in Japan. Once you get past country trains (usually 1-3 cars, often designed to be easily coupled up to make larger sets, even of different types) you usually see 6-8 cars or 10 cars per train.

 

If you really want longer the Yamanote line runs 11 car trains (very busy), while the longest are probably the coupled formations on a few of the lines that run from the middle of Tokyo all the way out to the far reaches - like the E531 or E231-1000 trains in 10+5 formation (a 10 car train that couples to a 5 car train for part of its journey). Kato makes these in DCC...(and the E233-3000, another 10+5 is coming out from Kato very soon too).

 

And one last thing...as long as the money is ok, you may want to grab the entire set (basic plus the 1 or 2 addons) when they are available for any specific train you want. Due to smaller production runs you might not have another chance to buy the addons for several years (or never if it's something like Microace, who do a lot of one time runs).

[The_Ghan]

Hi SpaceCadet,

 

Advice here from David seems to be pretty sound.  Like you, I'm moving from HO to N gauge right now.  I used to live in Japan and have fond memories of series 0/100/200 shinkansen, Tokyo subway and private railways at Nagoya and Hakone.  I'm a pretty ambitious fellow so my program is staged to ultimately consume a double garage.  I plan to start a thread on my layout soon.  Starting out though, here's a few things to consider that I've worked through over the last few months:

 

1. Track: I've gone with Tomix here in combination with Peco.  They appear to have a better range with a greater number of curve radii.  I made the decision after buying both track plan books and product catalogues for Kato and Tomix.  Wherever I want to see track with ballast I'm using Tomix.  I won't be brushing any ballast in between sleepers in this layout (got tired of that on the HO layout).  Track that is not seen is generally Peco Settrack Code 80 and the Streamline Code 80 Universal Flex with concrete or timber sleepers.  Stage 1 of my layout is a 4 platform subway station, which will be located directly under a suburban station, like Shinjuku.  The subway will only be visible through a 1' x 5' slot at the front of the layout.  Stage 1 is done in Peco with no ballast. 

 

2. DCC:  I'm biting the bullet and going for it.  There are many good systems available but I've gone for Digitrax (it's in the post right now from Hiawatha Hobbies).  I've bought a Super Chief with 20A power, stationary decoders, occupancy detection ... around $1000 worth.  This will be powering my subway and later the rest of the system.  I chose Digitrax for the following reasons: there product line looks sensible and is well though out, they make the Kato decoders so there is a compatibility , their website is fantastic with a good knowledge base and support centre.  At this point in time I can only hope I've made the right decision.

 

3. Rolling Stock: I'm starting out with Kato DCC friendly stock.  I've picked up a couple of trains on Ebay which I'll need to convert but that will happen later.  Also, other manufacturers,such as Tomix and MicroAce make a range of interesting  products not in the Kato lineup, so I'm hoping to be able to convert some of these to DCC in the future.

 

4. Staging: I strongly suggest you stage your work.  8' x 4' is as big as you'd want to go with a single stage.  You fint a whole lot more scenery, track, wiring, etc. into an N gauge layout. My plan is to have bases, track, wiring and DCC working on my subway before Christmas and spend my Christmas break working on the station platforms, lighting, etc.  I'm hoping to have Stage 1 complete by Easter 2011.

 

5. Wiring: I've come up with a system using the Molex plugs from inside your PC to connect various segments of wiring under the layout.  The concept seems to be working well.  Suggest you consider how bits of wire, etc, connect.  Eg: Peco point motors come without wires.  I cut an IDE power cable in half and use it to wire up my point motor.  Having a few spare means if a motor fails I can clip in a new one without needing to re-solder.

 

6. Shopping: I'm consistently checking prices but have found these are the cheapest for me (including the freight to Australia):

a. Japanese products (Kato, Tomix, MicroAce, Greenmax, etc): Hobby Search

b. British products (Peco): eHattons

c: American products (Digitrax): HiawathaHobbies or JohnsHobbies - prices are about the same but shipping is sometimes different.

 

Hope this is all helpful.

 

Cheers

[KenS]

Japanese freight trains do tend to be short by North American standards, and much of it is now unit container trains, although there are others (Unit petroleum trains, for example).  But there is still some mixed freight, mostly seeming to be box cars and container flats.  Japanese container trains are mostly the smaller domestic containers (Tomix and others sell these), but they also have ISO 20' (and sometimes 40' I think) containers, and there are domestic 20' and 30' containers (oddly, they're described in feet, not meters). Do a Youtube search for "JR Freight" and you'll turn up lots of videos.

 

For DCC, as David noted the motors are designed for 12V Kato Power Packs.  Better DCC systems have an "N scale" switch, which puts about 12 volts DCC on the rails (about 11 volts to the motor).  Kato, however, sells the Digitrax Zephyr (which puts 14 V DCC on the rails) so there's some tolerance there.  You'd probably be safe with even a typical HO system (nominally 16 V DCC to the rails, although I've seen some documents claiming that 14 is the correct value for HO DCC). I've read that some entry-level DCC systems put substantially more voltage to the rails, probably because they assume dirty sectional track with poor connectors, so it is a good idea to exercise some care when buying a system. I have a Digitrax system myself (originally a Zephyr, but I just replaced it with a DCS100).

 

DCC for N isn't really different from HO, other than the voltage being a bit lower, and the power needed being less due to the size of the trains. I've been doing some measurements lately, and even a Zephyr has plenty of power to run several trains.  You'd probably hit its 10-train limit before you maxed out the power.  Trains with bulb lighting (rather than LEDs) or sound (not really an option today for Japanese commuter trains) would use more.

 

One thing to be aware of: Because the motor car is typically in the middle of a commuter train, Kato makes three DCC decoders for them: the EM13 (motor decoder, one in the motor car), FL12 (cab car head/tail lights, one at each end of the train) and FR11 (interior light board, one per car).  But you can omit the FR11 as the LED light kits work fine on DCC with their DC board, which saves quite a bit of cash (you'll still need to buy and install the light kits, unless the model is described as having lighting, which isn't common). The FL12 is a bit of a pain to get to work; very finicky about positioning in the slot, and the EM13 isn't a whole lot better. But they do work.

 

There's a bunch of useful info on the DCC & Electrical forum about DCC decoders and various Japanese trains.

 

For commuter trains, there are some lines with trains as short as three cars, and many express trains are 6-7 cars, which is about all you'd probably be able to fit in a station on an 8-foot table with curves and a couple of switches.  The typical "full" size of commuter trains is 10 cars (the Yamanote line is an exception with 11-car sets), but some lines use 10+5 sets in the city, that separate (I think) further out.  There are other sizes.  Wikipedia is a good reference source; check out their entries for the Joban, Yamanote, and Chuo-Sobu lines.  Or for something different, check out the Tsurumi line, which serves Tokyo's industrial waterfront.

 

And welcome to the forum.

[David]

Two other bits of DCC I thought of:

 

When it comes to boosters, keep in mind that N needs fewer amps then HO, and it's probably in your best interest to keep the number of amps available to short circuit to a reasonable level to avoid damaging equipment (i.e. I would not connect an 8+ amp booster to an N scale layout. It would be great to see a smaller, cheaper booster in the 3 amp range for N scale).

 

With regard to interior lights, keep in mind that Kato sells two kits. An older, cheaper bulb kit, and a new LED kit. Only the LED kit is compatible with DCC (regardless of if you are using the FR11 decoder to turn the lights on and off - without the decoder the LED interior lights just stay on all the time).

[Bernard]

Hi spacecadet - I'm just going to welcome you to the forum. You're getting some really good advice from members here, I have nothing to add except, glad to have you here.

[spacecadet]

Thanks for all the replies so far, I've enjoyed reading them and there is some good info in all of them.  I'm in the process of selling some stuff right now in order to try to finance the beginnings of this, but hopefully I will have some progress to show within the next couple of months.  Somebody had mentioned something about "if money isn't an issue" - unfortunately it is, so it's going to take me some time to really get a full layout going, but I've gotta start somewhere.  For that reason too, I probably won't be doing DCC immediately, but I know from my experience in HO that DCC is not something that's all that easy to shoehorn into a system that wasn't planned for it from the start, so I just wanted to make sure that if I bought DCC-friendly stuff and didn't make the track plan too complicated, that it'd generally work the same way as adding it to an HO layout.  But I honestly wasn't aware of the different voltages, so that's definitely good to know.  I was probably just going to try using my HO DC power pack in the beginning, so I'm glad I asked.

 

It's too bad that the Japanese makers aren't doing much with sound; that's one thing I had just started to really enjoy in my HO stuff.  (I only actually have one locomotive with sound - the BLI GG1 - but I run it more than anything else since it's so versatile.)  Well, I'm still hoping to keep up with HO and just set up temporary tracks on the floor to run around on once in a while, so I guess I can live without sound on my upcoming Japanese layout.

 

One maybe tangential question - is there much of a difference in the shipping costs between the Japanese retailers?  I've actually been following Hobby Search basically since they opened but have yet to actually buy anything from them or set up an account, and I don't know anything about the other retailers mentioned here.  Are they all about the same for shipping, and is it generally just air mail or EMS?

[David]

All the big players (Hobby Search, Hobby World, Plaza Japan) will ship either SAL or EMS. At Plaza Japan (ebay) you are shown the shipping cost for one type, but can request to have it changed or do combined shipping before payment.

 

SAL is untracked economy air, and can be anywhere from days to weeks. There is a size limit on SAL packages, so larger items/orders are only possible with EMS. EMS is typical tracked express shipping, but more expensive.

 

In either case you will pay more then domestic. Browse around Plaza Japan to get an idea of shipping costs because there may be a sticker shock. Also, unlike ground mail, air mail doesn't have much in the way of 'economy of scale', so buying a lot at once doesn't bring nearly as big a savings in combined shipping.

 

Actual shipping cost can vary slightly but not a lot (usually it's the same) - you can't say for sure who, if anyone, will have cheaper shipping without actually checking them all. If anyone is higher, it's usually Hobby Search (again, not by very much) because they use premium post office packaging material (thick boxes, bubble wrap and heavy brown paper), where as Plaza or HW have a more one man shipping feel (regular boxes, bubble wrap and Japanese newspapers). All 3 pack well enough that you don't have to worry about damage because of poor packing.

[spacecadet]

In either case you will pay more then domestic. Browse around Plaza Japan to get an idea of shipping costs because there may be a sticker shock.

 

Oh don't worry, I actually own a store that sells Japanese clothing exclusively so I am unfortunately well aware of the actual costs :)

 

(Try shipping a box of 400 t-shirts from Japan to New York!  Yikes!)

 

But some stores will add on extra handling fees or will just over-estimate the shipping costs, so I figured there might be some variation and one store might be consistently a bit more or less than the others.

 

I'll check out Plaza Japan, that's one I've never seen before.

[David]

Some more thoughts on train length...

 

I know you want to run long trains (more then 10 cars!), but in 4'x8' I think you'd be right back in HO space limitations. To give you a sense of size, I did a 10 car station (or 8 car full Shinkansen) and a 5 car station on a 4x8 table. The 10 car station leaves just enough room for an 11"/12" set of curves immediately outside the station.

 

If you went to 5 cars there are plenty of prototypical 5 car DCC sets (the formations that join up with the 10 car ones for 10+5 operation on part of the line).

 

E531 Joban Line

E231 Joban Line

E231 Tokaido Line / Shonan-Shinjuku Line

E233 Tokaido Line (Coming October)

 

You can also make some non-prototypical sets by buying only the first 6 cars of the 10 car basic sets (DCC/Tokyo commuter theme) and run them with one less car (the double decker car if applicable). Later on with more money you could complete the set. In most of these cases you can create a second 5 car train of the same line but with a different set of numbers (which with the later addons can be used to finalize the 10+5 sets)

 

E531 Joban Line

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10074234 + http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10074232

 

E231 Joban Line

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10064329

 

E231 Tokaido Line / Shonan-Shinjuku Line

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10080326 + http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10080328

 

E233 Chuo Line

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10062437

 

E233-1000 Keihin-Tohoku Line

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10071408

[spacecadet]

I know you want to run long trains (more then 10 cars!),

 

No, it's actually not that big a deal.  Too much money anyway, and as you said I didn't figure I'd be able to run longer than around 8 cars on a 4x8.  Maybe I will even need to run shorter than that - I hadn't considered platform length before I started this thread.

 

Thanks for the links - I know I will be running the Joban line as it is a line I ride at least once a year.  (Probably doesn't sound very regular, but it's at least once every time I visit Japan.)  I understand the Kato Joban trains are DCC-friendly too, so that's a plus.

 

You can also make some non-prototypical sets by buying only the first 6 cars of the 10 car basic sets (DCC/Tokyo commuter theme) and run them with one less car (the double decker car if applicable).

 

Oh I'll definitely be running the Green Car as part of my non-prototypical consist!  I've actually never ridden a Joban line green car but my wife and I always talk about it, and would have ridden one last time if not for the weird ticketing arrangement (I forget what the deal was, but something like they don't guarantee seats even in the green car, which was the whole point of why we thought we'd try it).  Plus having the green cars in the middle of the consist just looks more interesting.

 

I think my approach to modeling has always been more to just invoke my own memories, rather than really run a simulation.  So not everything needs to be exact, just close enough that it keeps the memories alive.

[Kamiyacho]

I think my approach to modeling has always been more to just invoke my own memories, rather than really run a simulation.  So not everything needs to be exact, just close enough that it keeps the memories alive.

 

I agree 100% with that - I'm doing the same thing. If looking at the layout takes me back to Tokyo of 20 years ago, I've accomplished my goal.

[spacecadet]

Ok, so it looks like I'm gonna hopefully have about $400 to spend in the next few days to get started.  Not a lot, I know - probably enough to get some track, a power pack, maybe a station and one train.  I will have to build from there.  I'm thinking to just get a basic double track oval right now, which I can then chop up and rearrange later.  Not sure whether to go with Tomix or Kato track; also, does it make sense to get any of those track sets?  It almost seems like the individual pieces are cheaper.  For the train, I'll probably go with either a Joban line train or a 100 series shinkansen, which seem to be getting harder to find, and that was the first shinkansen I ever rode (see my avatar!).  I've got my eye on a particular Ebay auction going on right now that ends tomorrow...

 

For the station, I'm thinking this:  http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10064165

 

which looks a LOT like the station I always get off at on the Joban line, especially with the optional extension.  Eventually this will be my local line suburban station and I'll have the shinkansen on a viaduct, but I probably can't afford the viaduct line quite yet.

 

But with that station I need to get the platforms separately, correct?

 

This is probably a stupid question, but what do you guys do for roads?  I only see station area road plates (which I do want), but somehow I'm not finding just regular road plates at the Japanese sites.

[David]

Personally I lean in favor of Kato Unitrack for two reasons: It's available domestically (I can order it for cheap or just go down to the LHS and buy a piece I need) and it's never given me any trouble. For projects that require specialized track (complex switches, small radius track, etc) I use Tomix Finetrack - Kato for regular layouts, Tomix for dioramas.

 

Unless you want to buy Tomix track, I would highly advice buying your Kato Unitrack domestically (your profile says NY). MB Klein (ModelTrainStuff) is generally one of the best all around US online dealers (they also have a big store in Maryland) and are a Kato gold spike dealer. You will save a lot of money in shipping. KatoUSA generally supplies US shops with all the track available in Japan, and a choice selection of the buildings (including all the Kato platforms and overhead stations). Also the box sets are much cheaper then what you're seeing at HobbySearch: ex. V4 switching set is $66 instead of $89 (track pieces are about the same, sometimes a few cents cheaper in Japan. I assume it's because of the big difference in warehousing costs between the countries).

 

With Tomix I don't see much of a savings in buying the sets. With Kato the savings is small (about 5%), usually amounting to getting the core elements for the same price, and then a few throw ins for free (for example the yard and siding switch sets are about the same price as buying the switches and their controllers, and you get a few pieces of straight and curved track for free). As long as you actually want all the components in the set, go ahead and buy it (but not from Japan). If you don't need some of the components in the set (some people buy the Kato switches, but make their own switch controller) then you should probably buy individually. The Kato sets are also designed to go together (they all come with a little booklet showing how different set combinations can be put together).

 

Yes, you do need to buy the platforms seperately. That station goes with the new platforms (the ones with the yellow safety line). They come either in sets (2 middle sections and 2 end sections) or as seperate pieces. You have a choice between island/one sided and regular cap (200mm) or flag stop (71mm).

 

I'm not sure what to do for roads, but know that Kato's plate system is rather pricy. I think some members here can advise something that is more flexible and less likely to bankrupt you.

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

 

All said and done, the track packs are just a little cheaper than buying individually.  Depending on what packs you are looking at, you can possibly get the controller too.  Or in the case of Tomix, you can get a full starter set with track, controller, overhead station (w/ platform) and train.(http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10075530)  The last will completely blow your budget, but it'll have you running right from the box.

 

Something to consider - the Kato and Tomix track spacing are different.  So you can't just mix and match any station or platform.  Some stations might require some small modifications to fit the other brands track.. and island platforms might not perfectly line up if you are using a different brand of track.

 

The Kato station you are looking at (like most stations available) require you to buy the platforms separate.  

 

As for the Kato road plates.  The "Station Road" you are looking at is designed to go with Kato's Viaduct Station Set (http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003169).  Kato makes some other road plates, HobbySearch is sold out of most, but Plaza Japan has them (http://stores.ebay.com/Plaza-Japan/_i.html?_nkw=kato+road+plate&submit=Search&LH_TitleDesc=1&_sid=169030440).  The Kato road system is interesting and Kato's new(er) big thing is their Unitram line.. which is compatible with their road plates.  Allowing for easy expansion into building a tram system on your layout.

 

There are not many other road options out there.  Some of the European manufacturers make a sticky back foam sorta material to use for roads or streets.  http://www.eurorailhobbies.com/erh_list.asp?CA=40  While a lot harder to install, this style allows for much more flexibility than the Kato system which only lets you build in squares.  

 

The final option would be to "build" the roads yourself.  Woodland Scenics has a road building kit with this foam tape to tape your outline and a superfine plaster to pour into your outlined area.  This method certainly requires the most work, but theoretically could produce the most realistic outcome.  It allows you to paint/stain the roads, create potholes and cracks.. all things you won't get from a Kato smooth solid color piece of plastic.. trade-off obviously being that Kato road can be operational in minutes vs. hand pouring your roads which can take at best days.. in not weeks or months..

 

From your posts - I can't tell exactly where you fall along that line of..

"build everything myself" <-------------> "Everything pre-built for me"

 

Do what you want - Enjoy it!

 

Jon

[spacecadet]

From your posts - I can't tell exactly where you fall along that line of..

"build everything myself" <-------------> "Everything pre-built for me"

 

I know, I kind of go back and forth myself... I always want to try building everything but usually it ends up turning out horribly and I feel like I've just wasted a bunch of time.  Part of it is that while I've been running trains basically for 30 years, I don't actually have a lot of experience building layouts.  I just lay down some track and drop in some scenery.  So when I do try to build things, I just don't have the skills.  So I am actually trying to resist that urge now and just go pre-built as much as possible.  But obviously, if I can save 90% of the cost by trying to build something myself, I will probably try to build it because the alternative may be to just go without completely.

 

Anyway, thanks for the answers... and that Tomix train set is *really* tempting me (I do feel kind of lame buying a totally boxed set to start with, but it's a good price and I do want a 0 series shinkansen too).  But I do want to be all double track and David's point about buying Kato locally is probably going to tip me into the Kato camp.  I actually have a train store (Trainland) one town over from me and I know they sell at least some Kato track.  Didn't realize the prices would be so much lower here.  So I'll probably end up with Kato for that reason.

 

I will post some pictures and stuff once I get going!

 

(Edit: argh!  just got sniped on a Tomix series 100 shinkansen that ended up going for $117... seemed like a nice deal and I was outbid with 2 seconds left.)

[Bernard]

spacecadet - Trainland once in a "blue moon" carries some Kato Japanese train sets, but it's rare. Compare their prices to MB Klein, you will have shipping but no tax. Also if you get Model RR magazine, Trainland advertises there with a price list of their items. Bring it with you sometimes the prices are less in the magazine.

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

 

Certainly no shame in pre-built layouts.  I mean, in the end I'd rather have a pre-built layout than stacks of boxes collecting dust on a shelf that I keep telling myself will *someday* be a layout.. there is indeed sometimes a huge cost savings.. but in the case of stations and platforms, I don't think the savings in very significant.  In the situation of the roads.. those Kato road plates are a lot more $$$ compared to the European counterparts.. but the Euro stuff does require a little more work to install.

 

As for your pre-built stuff not looking good.. it just comes down to some practice.  My first couple kits looked like junk!  They were pre-colored, but I did such a sloppy job with the glue, I had uneven joints, glossy glue stains.. just a mess.. I'm pretty good with the gluing/assembling now.. but I am still working on my ability to paint.  Again, my first few attempts with painting kits came out terrible.. but after picking up tips from magazines and online sources, I am better with the painting than I was before.  Still maybe not great.. but getting there.. Once I finally get a layout built, it will be a combination of kits (mostly Greenmax) and pre-built structures..

 

I think the biggest issue with the track is the cost of shipping.  A lot of the track is pretty comparable in price.. but when you are forced to tack on $30+ shipping for a track pack.. it suddenly becomes a lot cheaper to get it locally.  Most of my track is Kato for that very reason.  I wish I could do Tomix, I personally think Tomix track looks better and it has a lot more variety of track pieces.. but knowing anytime I need a piece of track I have to pay $10 shipping and wait 3 - 4 weeks for it.. that really holds me back.

 

Jon