Anyone for Brazilian Model trains?

[bill937ca]

Model trains from Brazil and even with an English web site.  I'm not sure which gauge this is.

 

http://www.frateschi.com.br/index_eng.php

 

Very much world wide with dealer in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, South Africa, Australia, Spain, Switzerland and the USA.

[bikkuri bahn]

Looks like HO scale, based on the father and son pictures.  Check out the GE built EP-4 electric locomotives:

 

http://www.frateschi.com.br/produtos/v8_eng.php

[marknewton]

The Frateschi models run on 16.5mm gauge HO track, but the scale of the actual models varies, apparently. I recall reading somewhere that the models of metre-gauge prototypes, such as the various EMD export model diesels, were slightly larger than HO, much like HOj in Japan. But I can't remember where I saw this.

 

I have one of their models, the Baldwin 2-8-0, that I intend to kitbash into a JNR 9200 class engine, and it's a nice little model. It too is a little bigger than HO, but not so much as to bother me.

 

http://www.frateschi.com.br/produtos/consolidation_eng.php

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bill937ca]

That sounds like Rivarossi when it hadn't evolved from a toy train into a scale model.  Early locomotives were 1/80, freight cars near 1/87 and longer passenger cars were truncated down to 1/100.  Its probably an evolving market, with only so much investment capital available for product development, where only one or two radius of track are offered and models have to fit the existing track.  Not what we are used too!

 

I find it interesting that Frateschi offers a complete line of trains, track, power control, and accessories. Tariffs may still be barrier to outside suppliers in BRIC countries.

[Nick_Burman]

The Frateschi models run on 16.5mm gauge HO track, but the scale of the actual models varies, apparently. I recall reading somewhere that the models of metre-gauge prototypes, such as the various EMD export model diesels, were slightly larger than HO, much like HOj in Japan. But I can't remember where I saw this.

 

I have one of their models, the Baldwin 2-8-0, that I intend to kitbash into a JNR 9200 class engine, and it's a nice little model. It too is a little bigger than HO, but not so much as to bother me.

 

http://www.frateschi.com.br/produtos/consolidation_eng.php

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

 

 

Mark, the Frateschi 2-8-0 is based on a 1900 BLW (with Henschel and Hanomag knock-off versions) broad gauge prototype built for the Central Railway of Brazil. As far as scale goes the loco is spot-on for HO, with a few imprecisions. The prototype is a typical 1900 BLW product and at 90 tons in working order, quite large for its time.

 

The export locos have a nominal scale of 1:78; having said that I wish to warn that at least one loco has three different scales, one to each axis (X, Y and Z)! The U5B is useful as a starting point for a model of Taiheyo Tanko's GE/NS U10B - one company in NZ makes a U10B cab for the Frateschi U5, so it is a fairly straightforwrd task.

 

Cheers NB

(250 miles down the road from Frateschi)

[Nick_Burman]

That sounds like Rivarossi when it hadn't evolved from a toy train into a scale model.  Early locomotives were 1/80, freight cars near 1/87 and longer passenger cars were truncated down to 1/100.  Its probably an evolving market, with only so much investment capital available for product development, where only one or two radius of track are offered and models have to fit the existing track.  Not what we are used too!

 

I find it interesting that Frateschi offers a complete line of trains, track, power control, and accessories. Tariffs may still be barrier to outside suppliers in BRIC countries.

 

 

     Bill, you analysis is almost spot-on... in the face of what is being churned out of China today, Frateschi these days resembles more and more like 1970’s Lima...

 

The company is a father and son affair, with some 20 employees or so to go along. It was started almost 40 years ago by the present owner´s father, who began making accessories for Märklin trains, then turned its hand into making some freight cars of Brazilian prototype. Since the meter-gauge main line of the former Mogiana Railway goes through Ribeirao Preto (where the factory is located), it was natural that they first turned to meter-gauge prototypes to model. And since the owner was a Märklin collector, he decided to “bloat” the  equipment to look OK behind Märklin trains. When time came to release the  first locomotive (the EMD G-12), the bloating continued, this time so as to be able to fit a motor (a slot car one, the only kind of small electric motor available in those times) into the loco. Since then quality has improved a lot, but the bloating still continues in certain models - all the export diesels are theoretically to 1:78 scale. Some locos like the 2-8-0, the FA-1 and the EP-4 lookalike are HO or close enough. Freight cars are a mixed bunch – the meter gauge cars are bloated while the broad gauge cars are mostly HO. Same for the passenger equipment, except that some cars have a 1:100 scale length.

 

Other than the capital issue (true), there are cultural issues too. Railroads have just about dropped out of sight and out of mind of the Brazilian public - ordinary people are just barely aware that the country has a rail system. The closest the average Brazilian (mainly those who live in selected metropolitan areas) is exposed to trains today are the various rapid-transit systems, and their perennial overcrowding  and lousy service does not endear them to the public. These days there are only two regular passenger trains in the whole of the country, plus a smattering of tourist operations. In face of this, model trains are just not popular (Brazilians have a love affair with automobiles, though) and saying that you like trains (model or real) will earn you some weird looks from people - in fact, just saying that you have a pastime (be it model railroading, target shooting, reading, writing, whatever...) will earn you funny looks over here. If you say that you have a pastime people will think you’re “rich”, that you "have time to waste", no matter how poor you might be... The average Brazilian has no pastime whatsoever...sleeping and watching soap operas, perhaps....

 

My LHS owner guesstimates that in a population of some 150 million there are about 5000 to 8000 model train purchasers in the whole of the country- he knows his figures as he has one of the very few full-line LHSs (he is even the Brazilian representative for several big American brands) over here and he ships all over Brazil. Most of them just play trains - in fact, Frateschi still tries to (unsuccessfully - see above why) target the toy market (“Pa” Frateschi still dreams of selling to department stores...). Real modellers are few and far between; real experienced modellers can be counted on one’s fingertips. A good number of modellers do foreign prototypes (mainly North American); many (me included) do so because they perceive the fact that Frateschi is stuck in time and unresponsive to modeller’s demands. Also with the recent rise of the Real against the US dollar, imported model trains have become much more affordable (even with import duties - more on this later). Even though it is still (marginally) cheaper than imports, people have began seeing how unfavourably the Frateschi stuff compares with the foreign stuff in value for money terms. Frateschi’s sales have actually been declining of lately, partly because of imports, partly because of (very) poor commercial practices. Some people here believe that when “Pa” finally passes away (this is a very long time away, bless 'im), “Son” will simply stop making trains.

 

Yes, we do have to cope with import duties - 63% on goods over US$50.00, in theory. However Brazilian modellers have become adept at dodging customs, in many cases with the open collaboration from foreign stores - even in Japan!

 

 

Cheers NB

[marknewton]

Mark, the Frateschi 2-8-0 is based on a 1900 BLW (with Henschel and Hanomag knock-off versions) broad gauge prototype built for the Central Railway of Brazil. As far as scale goes the loco is spot-on for HO, with a few imprecisions. The prototype is a typical 1900 BLW product and at 90 tons in working order, quite large for its time.

 

G'day Nick, thanks for this information. I was under the mistaken impression that the 2-8-0 was based on a Sorocabana Railway meter gauge engine, which is why I thought it was slightly overscale. Now I know better! 

 

It's interesting to learn that it's based on a broad gauge loco, as the model I have is painted and lettered as a Victoria Railways 5'3" gauge loco, their V class from BLW in 1899. They were built as Vauclain compounds and were later simpled.

 

The export locos have a nominal scale of 1:78; having said that I wish to warn that at least one loco has three different scales, one to each axis (X, Y and Z)! The U5B is useful as a starting point for a model of Taiheyo Tanko's GE/NS U10B - one company in NZ makes a U10B cab for the Frateschi U5, so it is a fairly straightforwrd task.

 

Tempting! Who makes the cabs?

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Nick_Burman]

Mark,

 

Regarding the GE cab the answer is... sorry, I don't remember! I saw it ages ago in a (borrowed) NZ modelling magazine. Maybe if you get in touch with Frateschi's NZ representative he'll be able to point you in the right direction. Failing that, use the model grapevine, you are closer to NZ than I am... 

 

With Tramway releasing an undecorated DD13 I should say that you have more than a bit of incentive to try and tackle the Taiheiyo fleet...

 

 

Cheers NB

[quinntopia]

Wow, Nick, that's a fascinating bit of information that I find incredibly interesting.  Thanks for taking the time to share that with us.  I often think about where my 'hobby' would be without the rise of the internet...the answer is that it wouldn't exist.  Not only would I have virtually no access to the products from Japan and Germany (I do Japanese and European models), but I daresay one would never hear of a company like Frateschi nor the (struggling?) model railroad market in Brazil! 

 

I think its also interesting the way you relayed reactions of people if you tell them you have a 'hobby' of some sort.  While I think most of us would expect some of that (indeed, if not, I think I'm being patronized!  ) it certainly wouldn't be cast in the manner you explained.  Again, good read.  Thanks for posting.

[Nick_Burman]

Quinn, you're welcome...

 

I wouldn't say struggling...rather its more like something which never really took off. For model railroading to catch on you need a solid railroad culture - something that even a country as "auto-centric" as the USA has in great quantity. Brazil turned its back on railroads in the 1960's and with it went whatever little railroad culture we had.

 

And mind you, the situation is infinitely much better than, say, 25-30 years ago. There was a time when we actually had to smuggle imported model trains into Brazil...

 

Internet has also made a huge impact on me. It expanded my train horizons almost indefinitively. Otherwise no way the Mitsui Miike Railway (for instance) would have gained a railfan located halfway across the planet... 

 

 

Cheers NB

[Nozomi4ever]

Have a look lol. The pantographs of the subruban trains are really out of shape!!

http://www.frateschi.com.br/produtos/metro_eng.php

[marknewton]

No, they're just single-arm or Faively-style pans.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[harukablue]

Not too sure about the passenger stock but they also make the locomotive models in HO for the Guy in Taiwan,