Kiha 58 question

[Lawrence]

I bought a Kiha 58 Kato 2 car unit, 1 motorised, 1 dummy, both have cabs but I was curious to know if I can extend this train to maybe 3 or 4 cars. Is there a non cab variant of this train that would fit in the middle of the two, I saw a Kiro unit http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10028746 on HS which I thought might do the job, not sure what the green line is about though.

 

As usual, grateful for any help you can give.

[David]

The green line (and little clover design near the end) mean it's a "green" car - a Japanese first class car.

 

While you can add a dedicated middle car, the Kiha58 is designed with a variable length consist in mind - there can be cabs in the middle of the formation (there should be a switch on the bottom of the model that lets you switch off the headlights for a cab that is not going to be at one of the two ends). This allows trains to be combined and split to meet demand. The entire train is controlled from one of the end cabs.

[Lawrence]

Many thanks David, looks like I have a bit of flexibility then.  Do you think it would be okay to stick a 'green line' coach in such a consist or should I stick with 58's ?

[David]

Yes, a Kiro28 would be an excellent addition as a midcar, especially if you are making a longer train. Note that you would probably not see a train with only 2 Kiha58 end cars but half a dozen Kiro28 green cars in the middle, just like you wouldn't see a plane with mostly first class seats. I'm not sure of the size limit for the Kiha58 (how many cars it was designed to safely operate in a single consist), from photos it looks like it's at least 8.

[ToniBabelony]

KIHA 58's are safe to operate in any consist possible and mixed with other types, such as KIHA 35, 20s, 40s, 60s, etc. (except modern types with scharfenberg couplings and typical express types as the KIHA 181). AFAIK length is not an issue, but 8 cars as a maximum seems to be the most realistic option.

[Lawrence]

David & Toni - many thanks 

[bikkuri bahn]

I'd like to add that prototypically, a two car consist will be made up of a kiha 58 and a kiha 28, as the kiha 28 has an auxiliary generator that powers the aircon on both units.  A two car kiha 58 consist will have no aircon for the passengers-they'll have to open the windows.  Another possible combination is kiha 58/kiha 65, as the kiha 65 has a powerful 500 hp engine that also runs a generator.

[Lawrence]

I'd like to add that prototypically, a two car consist will be made up of a kiha 58 and a kiha 28, as the kiha 28 has an auxiliary generator that powers the aircon on both units.  A two car kiha 58 consist will have no aircon for the passengers-they'll have to open the windows.  Another possible combination is kiha 58/kiha 65, as the kiha 65 has a powerful 500 hp engine that also runs a generator.

 

I have never been a huge fan of prototypical modelling tbh. but I am very grateful to you for this information, thank you.

[Lawrence]

Well both the 65 and 28's are sold out on HW just now, and I see no point just ordering the Kiro Green line coach on its own, so I have yet another question for you 

 

Would it be acceptable to mix stock on a Japanese train as they sometimes do in the USA, where they used to use stock from other railroads or even older stock if necessary.  The reason I ask is that my 58 is the normal cream\red\cream colour scheme, so (despite not being a fan of prototypical modelling as such!) could I add something like http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10096082 to my consist, or is that a big no no out there.

 

Probably yet another really daft question but hey ho, I know you guys are understanding 

[ToniBabelony]

Sure. Like I said before it's possible to mix consists with other types. I think mostly in the late 70s and 80s this was more common:

 

and more:

 

 

http://anntomo.web.infoseek.co.jp/dc30dc40dc58kei.jpg

http://www.jnr-photo.com/DC58/kiha58/kiha585a.JPG

http://www.ec583.org/~taicho/TOKAI/N850908_06s.JPG

 

I find these combinations really cool and very interesting to see, so I'm all for it ;)

[bikkuri bahn]

Like I said before it's possible to mix consists with other types. I think mostly in the late 70s and 80s this was more common

 

Yes, that era saw a lot of these mixed "dog's breakfast" consists, mainly a result of elimination of express/semi-express services on main lines, and cascading of express stock to local services, thus as in the picture above, a mix of kiha 35 (a commuter/suburban type w/longitudinal seating) and kiha 58/28 (express type w/ box seats).  I think that middle kiha 58/28 would be the most popular among passengers in the warmer months, as it has air conditioning. In addition, as JNR was also still handling mail and express, you would also see combo mail/express diesel railcars such as the kihayuni 26 type on the head end of consists on some trains.

 

http://www.jnrsite.net/DC/20k/htm/kihayuni2658.htm

[Lawrence]

damn you guys are good, thanks 

[Fenway Park]

I thought the differences between the Kiha 58 and the Kiha 28 was that the 58 had 2 engines while the 28 had one. The first class cars were among the first to be withdrawn and I thought they were converted into other cars.

[bikkuri bahn]

I thought the differences between the Kiha 58 and the Kiha 28 was that the 58 had 2 engines while the 28 had one. The first class cars were among the first to be withdrawn and I thought they were converted into other cars.

 

 

 

Yes, correct.  The kiha 58 had two dmh17 engines, while the kiha 28 had only one, plus an auxiliary diesel generator to power air conditioning.  Those first class Kiro cars would indeed be withdrawn with the elimination of express services, lacking cabs, they would either be scrapped or as you say, converted.