Which rivets are you counting?

[David]

I know that Japanese modeling is a bit of a break from the world of most rivet counting train modeling (we still use rapido couplers on freight because they work), but even so are there specific prototypical or model details that you find yourself noticing or factoring into buying decisions?

 

For me:

 

Code 80 rail has started to feel unrealistically tall. With Unitrack I think I'm still fine, but with FineTrack the rail height has become really noticable.

 

Despite the fact that I have no experience with which to judge the accuracy, I've found I've really started to notice the size or absence undercarrage detail. The shorty trains have none really, and the traditional method of putting a big grey box with some basic outlines to hide the motor has become a bit annoying to me. Kato has done a somewhat ok job in their up to date models by minimizing the size of the box, and shaping it so that it isn't a big rectangle but rather a more rounded bulge (compare Greenmax's giant rectanglar box that extends both up and down). Modemo makes a lot of interesting prototypes, but I just can't get past how they make no attempt to hide the motor. The newest Microace models have a really nice Kabuki approach where the rectangular box is kept, but it's painted matte black and slightly more raised details representing the undercarrage details are painted a more realistic color (compared to the plastic grey Kato and Tomix still use). What I'd ultimately like to someone applying some of that micro motor thinking used in the Kato Portram (the motors are inside the trucks) to create a completely unobtrusive mechanism, so that the exterior visible detail can be freely modeled (such a train would lack the power to pull 10 cars though, unless multiple expensive power cars where used - perhaps a limited edition Kiha 2 or 3 car set of some make).

[westfalen]

If McHenry, or Bachmann with their new working knuckle couplers, ever come out with a T-shank version of their couplers to make fitting easier I'll be swapping the Rapido couplers on all my Japanese freight cars.

[KenS]

The Rapido couplers bug me, and I plan to replace them on the Micro Ace EMUs I have that came with them.  I'm less certain that I'll do the same on my freight cars, as my focus is the passenger trains, but I probably will eventually. I'm more worried about adding car lighting and pasengers than the couplers though. And I wouldn't really consider that "rivet-counting" (although you could call it that), but more about wanting to make a more complete appearance, rather than an obsessively true-to-prototype one.

 

I guess you could say I obsess about the trains being correct.  I want to run trains that "belong" in Tokyo, and ones that have operated there in the past decade or so (i.e., "modern" designs). It's partly a way to give myself focus, but it's also about replicating an aspect of the prototype, so that is "rivet-counting" in that sense. But I'm not going to let that rule me absolutely.  I'll run both my Series 500 and E4 Shinkansen on the same double-track line, and I'll run the 1:160 Shinkansen though the same station as the 1:150 E231. And I do have a Rapit on reserve, despite it never running anywhere near Tokyo; it's a cool train, the heck with reality.

 

Beyond that, I try not to obsess over minor details.  I'm modeling a railroad (JR East) with next-to-nothing published about it in English, compared to North American or British lines, so obsessing over those few details I do know doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

And I'm going for a simple layout to start, with limited scenery and pre-built buildings, as a way to get something "fully" sceniced in relatively short order, after spending 15 years with a mostly-plywood HO layout where I didn't do anything until I was ready to "do it right", and as a result did very little.  I certainly plan to make it more detailed as time goes on, as I do find model-building and painting/detailing fun, but I want to run trains through scenery now, not a couple of decades from now.

 

For that reason, my river is green paint on plywood, and my grass is a different green paint on insulation foam. Both are methodst that would probably horrify most "serious" modelers. So obsessing over that kind of scenic "rivet-counting" (or should it be "leaf-counting"  ) is definitely not in my plans.

 

Which is not to say I don't obsess over details.  I obsess over knowing them, as anyone who's followed my posts here could probably guess. When I simplify, I want to do it intentionally, not because I didn't know of some detail I could have known. But I will simplify, in the interest of time, and keeping my focus on the stuff that is most important to me (running good-looking trains through scenery).

 

The point is to have fun, after all.

[westfalen]

My plan is to build some modules with generic looking scenery on them that could be anywhere in Japan at any time so that it doesn't matter what train comes along. I try more to keep what I'm running believable and the era of what I'm running consistent, like not pulling a modern container train with a C11, but if my original paint scheme Super View Odiriko pulls into the platform opposite my EF510-500 hauled Hokutosei who's going to know that's not right? The same thing happens with my US modelling, I'm trying to model the Santa Fe in Texas in the 50/60's but I've got a cab forward on order among other things that would never be prototypical, at the moment there's a DE10 and 1970's era JNR freight train parked at the depot. It's all fun.

 

My favourite piece of rollingstock for counting rivets is the Aso Boy's tender.

[bigford]

i just painted 4 c44-9w's in NS black and posted a pic.

one reply was that the headlights were not in the right spot...

 

My reply was to this guy... Tell Mr. kato his models are wrong

if kato can sell a loco thats not right then who cares... not me!!!

 

I see no problem having my ef510 pull 5 bombordeir caltran cars

 

oh ya the ef510 had the middle truck replaced with a fuel tank

for non electric area's

[Sir Madog]

I would not call me a rivet counter, but there are a few issues, which bug me.

 

Rapido Couplers: They have been with us, since Arnold Rapido "invented" them in 1960. They are bulky and ugly looking, spoiling the overall appearance of an otherwise excellent model. I´d rather go for the a little more prototypical looking Kadee type couplers, if attaching them would be a little easier.

 

Catenary: Running electric trains without catenary looks awkward to me. Installing the wires certainly can be a hassle, but for me it is a worthwhile effort. I´d wish there were an easy to install system available. The Ginga system is quite nice, actually, but its availability is too limited.

 

DCC: DCC has been around for some 20 years now, yet no model is available with DCC factory installed.

 

Track: The toy-like appearance of Kato´s Unitrack or Tomix Finetrack is simply unacceptable to me. Code 80 rail with plastic ballast just does not look right. Atlas code 55 turnouts do not have the right tie layout and Peco is too expensive. I wish, there´d be an alternative.

 

Fantasy locos and rolling stock: In general, I am not so keen about locos and rolling stock, which is far off the prototype. Today´s technologies allow for highly detailed replicas in N scale, so there is no need for those "foobies".

[marknewton]

I know that Japanese modeling is a bit of a break from the world of most rivet counting train modeling...

 

LOL!

 

Sometimes I wish that was the case, but I've chosen to model a particular railway at a particular time without too many compromises. For me, doing research and getting things right is a big part of the fun, so I don't seeing it as rivet counting.

 

I certainly agree with Sir Madog's comment about catenary, and that's one aspect of my modelling I intend to improve.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

My favourite piece of rollingstock for counting rivets is the Aso Boy's tender.

 

LOL! Are they rivets, or bolts? 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

HA! I come from a background where rivet counting goes something like this (I have had several people make comments similar to the one below at me!)...

 

"Oh, you can't run that Merchant Navy like that! Don't you know that 35014 operated with a series two 5,100 gallon tender between 1950 and 1952 before it was upgraded to a 6,000 gallon series three? By running in this state, you cannot have it hauling Maunsell carriages in green livery as this livery did not appear until 1956 (they would, of course, be in red and cream livery); a full four years after the tender was changed. Also, the version of the BR roundel is completely wrong for the tender, having been introduced in 1955...."

 

Knowing this kind of stuff probably says as much about me as it does them (the science of knowing which type of tender fits which Bulleid Pacific is akin to nuclear physics in terms of complexity and variables)!

 

For my part, I try to keep the types of trains operating together plausable. They operate in more or less the same area/time period etc. Of course there are those exhibitions when you just want to run all your cool trains at the same time, and prototypical operations go out of the window.

 

It is a help that the vast majority of 'average punters' at shows don't know much about Japanese trains...then again it does mean one of my cardinal rules is often broken when I get the usual question "do you have a bullet?". I bet you didn't realise that the series 300 has made its way up the Chuo mainline...

[clem24]

Hahaha I used to be fairly anal until I realized a.) the only person that cared was me and b.) when the train is moving, who can tell what cars are in the right order and c.) who would even know b.) except possibly myself.

[westfalen]

HA! I come from a background where rivet counting goes something like this (I have had several people make comments similar to the one below at me!)...

 

"Oh, you can't run that Merchant Navy like that! Don't you know that 35014 operated with a series two 5,100 gallon tender between 1950 and 1952 before it was upgraded to a 6,000 gallon series three? By running in this state, you cannot have it hauling Maunsell carriages in green livery as this livery did not appear until 1956 (they would, of course, be in red and cream livery); a full four years after the tender was changed. Also, the version of the BR roundel is completely wrong for the tender, having been introduced in 1955...."

 

Knowing this kind of stuff probably says as much about me as it does them (the science of knowing which type of tender fits which Bulleid Pacific is akin to nuclear physics in terms of complexity and variables)!

 

For my part, I try to keep the types of trains operating together plausable. They operate in more or less the same area/time period etc. Of course there are those exhibitions when you just want to run all your cool trains at the same time, and prototypical operations go out of the window.

 

It is a help that the vast majority of 'average punters' at shows don't know much about Japanese trains...then again it does mean one of my cardinal rules is often broken when I get the usual question "do you have a bullet?". I bet you didn't realise that the series 300 has made its way up the Chuo mainline...

Do you get more gratification from the bloke who's devoted his life to the study of Bulleid Pacific tenders 1950-56, or the one who tells his grand kids, "That's just like the trains we caught on our holidays to the coast when I was a lad."?

 

I have a small 3'x2' layout depicting a village called Nekotani somewhere in rural Japan using Tomytec buildings, though the two palm trees in the park next to the station suggest Kyushu or somewhere in the sunny south. I haven't made any effort for it to represent a real place but I've had Japanese people at train shows studying it intensely because it reminds them of somewhere they've been but can't put a finger on it.

 

I think the overall effect can be just as important as the individual rivets.

[bill937ca]

 

I have a small 3'x2' layout depicting a village called Nekotani somewhere in rural Japan using Tomytec buildings, though the two palm trees in the park next to the station suggest Kyushu or somewhere in the sunny south. I haven't made any effort for it to represent a real place but I've had Japanese people at train shows studying it intensely because it reminds them of somewhere they've been but can't put a finger on it.

 

I think the overall effect can be just as important as the individual rivets.

 

I think you have achieved something very special there.  Good effort!!

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Indeed, you can go to such extremes with rivet counting, and you are right...it is far better to hear someone say 'that's just like the train took when I went on holiday when I was a kid...'

 

I also agree with the comment that the overall effect is important...I would probably go as far as to say it is more important. You either need a very big modelling room, or a really small prototype to portray a location with complete accuracy. We modellers always seem to conjure up a bridge, tunnel or curve to fit our given model into what space we have available. Scenery seems to shift about, and which should be a couple of miles between station and tunnel suddently become a few inches!

 

It is a good feeling when you have someone tell you your efforts look just like such and such place...

[ToniBabelony]

I'm not a rivet counter at all. With my modelling I'd like to create a nice atmosphere on my layout and that's it. Detailing should be close to reality, but not in the extremes. All that matters is that I see smiles on the people that see my stuff and start a talk about it, no matter if they are interested in trains or stuff like that. Next to that, I'm going to repaint my rolling stock in the future in favour of a fictive company. I just like to let my creativity and fantasy flow ;)

 

Other than that, I can respect people who like accuracy on their layouts, but to a certain extent as we all do

[cteno4]

David,

 

I dont think you will get what you want from the main stream manufactures in any large amount if at all. trying to hide motors and increase detail will really drive up costs and then probably lower sales. thats just the way things are. a few things may get miniaturized like the kato portram, but event hat took a very long and hard development cycle by kato and it isnt cheap. also its not that powerful as you noted for multi car trains and my real worry with them is that they are very complex and tiny mechanisms that if something goes wrong most folks wont be able to tear into it and repair it. not even sure if its worth it on katos end to attempt repair on them. the larger mechanisms have the advantage that most of us can rip into them if you have a bit of heart along with some mechanical skill and experience and fix them. i do this all the time, but dont think i would attempt it on the kato portram after looking at the disassembled pictures posted unless i were totally desperate.

 

you just cant expect the main stream manufacturing to be ultra detailed, economics just wont work out. you either have to do it yourself or find the small companies specializing in ultra detailed trains or addons, but these can be hard to find/source and usually pretty expensive. sorry just dont think you can have your cake and eat it too. they also just cant do a few here and there as there are large investment costs in modifying what they currently do to add dcc or miniaturizing mechanisms. they have to be able to sell a lot and not raise the price much in order to make that viable.

 

rapido couplers are still around because they are dirt cheap and ubiquitous and easy for the entry modeler to use and not break as well. for some things its the easiest and cheapest way for the manufacturer to put stuff out there to the whole market. lots will just use it but those that desire more detail can choose from a number of alternative more detailed couplers to retrofit pretty easily. that way only the part of the market that wants the extra detail pays for it and prices are kept down, sales up and more train diversity.

 

personally i can give up ultra detail for the diversity of things to buy to build my stuff. while tomytec items are not jaw dropping detail and finish, they are quite nice and looking at them from 2' or more they look spectacular and the thing that really make the difference is the range of items they have been able to come out with so you have so much more to work with in developing a scene. also has the big benefit that the variety helps keep all our scenes from looking the same!

 

really boils down to what you personally like to do and im happy everyone has a slightly different take on what they like on level of detail, accuracy, fantasy, etc. --  i love seeing the variety of how different folks approach their modeling. what just isnt practical is to want manufactures to do super detailed models with lots of variety and cheap. just isnt going to work out for them economically. its a compromise for the vast commercial market to make a buck.

 

cheers

 

jeff