B train shorty: Which one to buy?

[Jes]

Hi there,

I have been modelling in N scale for quite a few years and am currently working on a micro tram layout, loosely set in Europe, but there are some Japanese trams around  . See my tram blog for more on this.

I'd like to try a B train shorty, and motorize it using Kato parts. If I like it (and there's quite a big chance that I will  ), I'll get some more and build a nice little Japanse themed layout around it.

OK and now my problem: there are just so much B train shorties to choose from! I must confess I don't know that much about Japanese railways, so I could use some help. I'd like to make a layout set in a hilly countryside, probably a single track electrified line. Which train would run on such a line? Perhaps there's a railway company of which several different trainsets are available?

Any help would be really appreciated!

[CaptOblivious]

Welcome, Jes!

 

You couldn't go wrong with a Blue Train (an overnight, cross-country passenger train), like this one:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10065980

 

The 485-series was (and still is!) a pretty common sight on main lines around Japan:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10087991

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10087993

 

neither of these were common on rural lines, although they ran through the countryside. Finding genuinely rural B-Trains looks a little tough! They seem to focus mostly on urban commuter and inter-urban express lines. Perhaps someone else could correct me?

[David]

My only complaint about the blue trains is that when you motorize the locomotive you need the pocket line power drive (2 axel), which while cheaper, is a poor performer in my opinion (pickup is terrible). EMU/DMUs that can use the 4 axel shorty power units perform much better in my opinion.

[David]

One other suggestion, while using the Kato shorty motor unit and wheels is obvious, if you want to add a realistic looking pantograph, I suggest checking for the Kato part - I've found the shorty models have the correct holes in the roof to directly accept the pegs of the Kato pantographs, while for Tomix/Microace/Greenmax you'll end up needing to snip some of pegs and glue it by hand.

[stevenh]

My only complaint about the blue trains is that when you motorize the locomotive you need the pocket line power drive (2 axel), which while cheaper, is a poor performer in my opinion (pickup is terrible). EMU/DMUs that can use the 4 axel shorty power units perform much better in my opinion.

 

The 2 axle drive is quite poor, but don't forget you can go 'slightly' un-prototypical and put engines in the carriages.

[keiman]

All of mine I have motorised the carriages, even my 8 car unit works fine with just one motor unit in the first carriage.

[Jes]

Thanks for your suggestions. I really like the blue train.

 

The 2 axle drive is quite poor, but don't forget you can go 'slightly' un-prototypical and put engines in the carriages.

 

Yes, I have had similar experiences with the 2-axle motorized chassis. They are the same as used under the Kato tram. Is there a dummy chassis for the locomotive or do I need to use the 2-axle chassis for the locomotive and a powered chassis for one of the carriages as well?

 

One other suggestion, while using the Kato shorty motor unit and wheels is obvious, if you want to add a realistic looking pantograph, I suggest checking for the Kato part - I've found the shorty models have the correct holes in the roof to directly accept the pegs of the Kato pantographs, while for Tomix/Microace/Greenmax you'll end up needing to snip some of pegs and glue it by hand.

 

I noticed that there a number of different Kato patographs available, and they do not seem to have the pegs in the same place. Do you have good experiences with a specific type?

 

Am I right that the most B-train shorty EMU's come as 2-car trains, so you will need at least two packages to get a train with two end cars?

[David]

Yes, most of the EMUs (and even some blue trains) come in 2 car packs - a cab car and a mid car. The package contains the parts to build the mid car (and occasionally the cab car depending on prototype) as either a regular mid car, or a mid car with pantograph (usually by providing 2 different roof pieces and different door pieces).

 

However you can also find 4, 6 and a few 8 car sets (there are also a few A + B packages).

 

As for choosing pantographs, it comes down to picking the correct one for the train. Each Kato pantograph is modeled after a specific Japanese prototype (i.e. PS16 is an actual type of pantograph used on several types of Japanese trains). You can usually use Wikipedia or just search by the train type (i.e. E233) to find the correct pantograph.

[David]

Here are some blue train photos.

 

This is of the Silver Line set: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10065980

With PS22 Pantograph: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003611

As well as Kato power unit, wheels, and alternate couplers (I've used knuckle couplers on the ends, and shafenberg couplers mid car)

 

The last photo is large. I've cropped it down from the original 1.6MB, but it's still big enough to show macro detail (this was a quick point and shoot with a new $99 Canon camera, let me know what you think of its auto mode and quote "super macro" capability [1cm macro range]).

 

 

(Ok, having trouble getting this to post...trying without the 400KB image)

[David]

Is there a limit on image dimensions? I can't seem to post the large image (400KB, 2590x2233). It uploads fine, but the forum just takes me to a white page after, and my post doesn't appear. Trying to post the image in a zip file.

Upload04.zip

[CaptOblivious]

There is a size (file size and pixel size) limit, but the whole system seems to work by voodoo more than anything. That is to say, there are multiple limits imposed by multiple layers of software, and just now I'm not sure what the relevant limits are.

[Jes]

Thanks for posting those pics, they explain a lot. I really like the blue train. Where did you get the couplings? Do they simply fit into the Kato trucks? And does the Kato 2 axle chassis have enough power to pull the train (besides for the electrical pickup problems...) or dit you power one of the cars?

[David]

Thanks for posting those pics, they explain a lot. I really like the blue train. Where did you get the couplings? Do they simply fit into the Kato trucks? And does the Kato 2 axle chassis have enough power to pull the train (besides for the electrical pickup problems...) or dit you power one of the cars?

 

The couplers used are Kato couplers, both types fit into the pocket provided on the wheel set and both types of powered unit. It can be a bit of a challenge getting them on the powered cars since access to the pocket is partially blocked by the car body. In general I align the coupler sideways (after removing the old coupler), slide it in, and then turn it back the right way to lock it. The pocket 2 axel power unit is enough to pull the whole train, however it can't run as slow or smooth as a train using the 4 axel shorty power unit (I have 2 Hankyu units).

 

The couplers are

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003622

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003621

 

There are also grey versions

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10027345

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10027346

 

Each package has parts for 20 individual couplers (you'll need to cut them off the plastic frame, but they're very easy to assemble unlike the microtrains couplers).

[Jes]

Great, thanks for your help David! 

[David]

Keep in mind that shorties don't come with a case of any kind apart from the cardboard box and plastic bagies that the plastic pieces came in.

 

You can buy a foam insert to be used with the Kato A or B case (they say E too, but I have both and the E is not the exact same size, making a less then perfect fit)

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10039510

 

Since the description almost doesn't mention it, there are actually 2 foam inserts in the package - so you could have space for 40 cars if you have 2 kato cases (or Casco spare cases which probably work too)

 

Picture is of the foam insert in a Kato B case.

[David]

And to go with the above video, as slow as I could make it go. I had to scrub the track clean and it still stalled just before the starting point.

[upbnsfrrfan]

Hi folks, newbie here. Anyway, been bitten by the B Train shorty bug also and like some you guys here, got a major fever and had to buy $200 worth of B train sets and upgrades a few weeks ago just to cure it  I don't have a specific region in mind when it comes to buying the B trains, I just bought what attracts my eye, but usually i prefer the older or earlier models. The sets that i have right now are:

 

Shirasagi 485 Series Add-On B Set (4 Cars Set)

Series 223-2000 West Japan Railway (4-Car Set)

Izukyu 100 Series B set (4 Cars Set)

Series 415-1500 Joban Line (4-Car Set)

Series 165 JNR Color (2-Car Set) X 2

 

These where all purchase from Hobby Search, plus i still have the Series 169 4 car set from HLJ and the Series 457 4 car set which is the first one i finished and completed, with Kato Express motor and trucks(Bogies) and working PS16 pantographs. Hopefully i could take pics soon and post it for you guys to see Currently building the 485 Shirasagi, still missing main motor unit though.

 

Larry

[Jes]

And to go with the above video, as slow as I could make it go. I had to scrub the track clean and it still stalled just before the starting point.

 

I must say that doesn't look too bad! And I like the picture of the case with your little collection, I'll definately need one of those 

[David]

I should also note that I add weight to some of my shorty cars (haven't yet experimented with adding weight to power cars). The weights I use are little 7 gram square weights (you can buy them in a strip of something like 10 with an adhesive backing at your LHS for $2.50) which fit almost exactly into the little square indent in the middle of the shorty floor piece. The weights reduce the amount of wobbling the cars do and also smooth out the overall speed of the train - while the train goes slower, it has less starts and stops that with lighter cars results in a kind of slinky effect. The only downside is that the extra load puts a noticable strain on the power unit - if you make a prototypical length train (ex. 8 or 10 cars) you'd need to either forgo the weights, or add a second power car in the mix.

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

 

A little off the original topic.. but still related to "which one to buy"..

 

David & Stevenh - I don't (yet) own any B-train locomotives.. but if the 2 axle motor is as poor as you say.. what is to stop you from installing one of the pocket motors?  I really don't see the pocket motors as being any more or less prototypical than the little 2 axle..

 

Are the locomotives built different or a different size than the other B-Train Shorty cars that a regular pocket motor will not fit?

 

Thanks!

Jon

[David]

hey hey,

 

A little off the original topic.. but still related to "which one to buy"..

 

David & Stevenh - I don't (yet) own any B-train locomotives.. but if the 2 axle motor is as poor as you say.. what is to stop you from installing one of the pocket motors?  I really don't see the pocket motors as being any more or less prototypical than the little 2 axle..

 

Are the locomotives built different or a different size than the other B-Train Shorty cars that a regular pocket motor will not fit?

 

Thanks!

Jon

 

It's a problem of size. The "shorty" (4 axel good) chassis is about 5mm longer with a slightly different shape. The "pocket" chassis and matching shorty locomotives are shorter and have some notches that match up (what are not on the shorty chassis).

[David]

I found something I was looking for. There are a few exceptions to the rule that shorty locos are designed for the Kato Pocket chassis. I've seen photos of the EF210 model (which is scheduled to reappear in the upcoming best repeat blind pack set) that clearly used the shorty chassis. I can't find the nice clear photo, but one of the shorty videos contains a very brief appearance by one pulling some shorty Koki cars.

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item&id=499

 

Edit: Nevermind, here is the EF210

 

 

I should also note something this picture reminds me of, when you add the pocket chassis to shorty locos like the EF64 you have to remove the shirt/plow to make room for the mechanism. Personally I found that this really took some detail away from the loco. As you can see in the photo the EF210 retains the skirt.

[CaptOblivious]

Keep in mind that shorties don't come with a case of any kind apart from the cardboard box and plastic bagies that the plastic pieces came in.

 

You can buy a foam insert to be used with the Kato A or B case (they say E too, but I have both and the E is not the exact same size, making a less then perfect fit)

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10039510

 

Since the description almost doesn't mention it, there are actually 2 foam inserts in the package - so you could have space for 40 cars if you have 2 kato cases (or Casco spare cases which probably work too)

 

Picture is of the foam insert in a Kato B case.

 

Reviving an ancient thread. Does anyone know if those foam inserts will fit in Kato Case "D" part no. 10-213?