Kato EH500 3037-1 DCC Install

[inobu]

Well I thought I would do a quick install on one of my EH500. I had a spare N163K0A/B and though I would use it. As usual there is problems. The Digitrax N163K0A/B can be used but K0A has the perfect LED power output that will save you time and effort.

This unit is difficult to disassemble. I will show you in reverse order so you can see what you have to contend with. There is a drive shaft between the two units with a bracket. Although the bracket supports the connection it does not seem sturdy enough to handle any heavy movements.

So try to handle the two units as one.

 

Turn the unit on its side and use your thumbnail to lift one side of the shell up, with the other hand slide the chassis out.  

Decoder Overall Fit


The fit into the chassis is good but it does not make good contact on the brass pickup.  

The dowel that retains the brass pickup lifts the decoder board and prevents the cab from securing flush.  Everything aligns except for the retaining pin/dowel depicted by the blue arrows.

The decoder covers the gray pin/dowel as you can see in the comparison picture.  

You can see the red cab in the back ground that the cutout on the roof fits the boards perfectly but I not sure on why the gray dowel pins don't match up but we will address that.  


Decoder install
Step 1.  remove motor car light board by removing gray center clip.



Step 2.   Dowel modification. Dowel prevent decoder from making contact with brass pickups.

I shaved the tip of the dowel off just enough to hold the pickup in place.



Step 3. DC motor tab isolation. The motor no longer gets its DC power from the track. The DC power comes from the decoder now. We must isolate the tabs coming from the motor brushed.

There are two Methods.

Methods A

Isolate the pickups with kapton tape. I modified/bent the pickup like this to insure good contact with the decoder.

You can see how the DC motor tabs are isolated from the brass pickups. The kapton tape creates the insulation.

Method B is much harder

The motor is completed disassembled and the tabs are router through the inner ports isolating the DC tabs from the brass pickups. Only advance installers should try this. Although it is hard to see. Notice the vertical pick up are routed on the outside (pic above)  as normal. In method B the vertical pick ups are routed through the inner holes (pic below).

The tabs are folded onto the decoder DC powers section and the gray clips hold them in place.

CAUTION :Sometime you can solder the tabs but it takes skill to complete the solder without melting the surrounding plastic.  

Step 4 . Install the decoder.

Fold the DC motor tabs over the decoder and replace the plastic clip. Be careful the clip only goes in one way.

This completed the Decoder install.

Next installing the rear lights.

Edited February 19, 2022 by inobu

[CaptOblivious]

That's an interesting discrepancy! Thanks for pointing that out! I doubt that the other DN163K0x decoders will have a different shape at all: I believe they only differ in the number and length of LEDs attached. Cutting the pins is certainly not an option, as they hold the brass pickups in place. But I wonder if you could cut them flush with the top of the brass rail, and use a tiny drop of PVA (white or Elmer's) glue to compensate?

 

A question, since I'm thinking of getting the Kato EH500: How do you do the lights in the other cab? Would you just remove the rear LED, and run wires to the other cab? Or is it possible to install a second ($$$!!!) DN163K0 in the unmotorized cab as a function-only decoder?

[inobu]

I found what looks like a easy fix for the lights.

Flip the board so the runs are on top, bend the LEDs downward and wire it to the decoder LED leads

You can run the LED wire from cab to cab

The original board is in the foreground and the flipped board in the background. Remove the diode and tap the wire there.

Edited February 19, 2022 by inobu

[inobu]

The out put power from the KOA and KOB differs. The K0A has 3 volts where the K0B has 13 volts. That required a resistive circuit to step down the voltage. It is easier to use the 3 volts and wire straight to the original light board.

[stevenh]

I can't see the pictures in this thread... They're hosted in the internal gallery here?

Are they private?

[CaptOblivious]

weird: I can see them just fine…

[alpineaustralia]

Sorry, can you just clarify...did you retain the original light board in the second car and wire across the gap between the two cars?

[inobu]

 

 

Quote

Sorry, can you just clarify...did you retain the original light board in the second car and wire across the gap between the two cars?

 

This is what you can do but I have not done it yet. The board that I used (DN163K0B) has -13v on the rear LED leads and requires a resistor, so use the DN163K0A it has -3v both sides. Removing the LED on the rear of the decoder is easier than trying to install another resistor to bring down the -13v.  

The easiest way to complete the lighting is to reuse the original light board. The 2 boards are not the same. One has a blocking diode that is used in operating directional LEDs on the DC setup. You can see the diode in the image below on the LED in the back ground (the little block soldered on the LED).

So use the board without the blocking diode.

Flip the board and bend the LED in the opposite direction. This will isolate the LED from the pickup and allow you to drop the board onto the unit.



The flipped board (closest) has a diode that needs to be removed. This is the wiring point from the decoder.

I have to wait for another DN163K0A to complete the install. Some times the LED leads run hot for me. I got the feeling that it has to do with the quality of the contact made between the decoders and brass pick up.

In any case this is how I see the best way for the LED install.

Inobu

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by inobu

[inobu]

I went over my install and performed heat test and found some hot levels. 120 to 130 degrees in some spots. Heat is generated by any form of resistance in the circuitry. A bad connections is a form of resistance which creates heat by bottle necking current flow. The bottle neck is where you will see the heat build up.

After looking over everything I found that the decoders traces do not have good contact with the brass pickups. I added a solder pads to the decoder runs to insure good surface contact.

The heat levels dropped and only appeared on the points from the truck leads to the brass runs.

It appears that the term "drop in" is figurative speaking. I think I will start soldering the brass pickups to the decoder so it will make a solid connections.

Inobu

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by inobu
c

[CaptOblivious]

What are you using to measure the temps?

[inobu]

What are you using to measure the temps?

 

 

It has a laser pointer and 8:1 Distance to spot. The specs show it reads at 8 to 1 on .5 inch diameter but I can pick up the temps of

the different resistors and chips that are less than 1/16" apart. The temps registers on the decoder board as soon as power is applied to the track. I sent a MRC decoder back because it was upwards to 140 degrees which is too hot. I found a trace run that lifted off the board. I suspect that was the problem.   

 

Inobu   

[alpineaustralia]

Sorry. I am really confused now.

You inatll a decoder in one unit and a flipped over light board in the other?

How do you get directional lighting?

Sorry to be a bit thick.

[inobu]

 

 

Quote

Sorry. I am really confused now.
You inatll a decoder in one unit and a flipped over light board in the other?
How do you get directional lighting?
Sorry to be a bit thick.

 

It's me,  I need to post a more descriptive image. I'll get on it...............

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by inobu

[ShinCanadaSen]

Hello,

 

I want to convert my Kato EH500 to DCC, Just wanted to confirm the steps below as this will be my first go at anythong other than drop in.

 

1. Remove Rear LED from the DN163K0A.

 

2. Replace DC board in front half of the EH500 with the DN163K0A.

 

3. Flip the DC Board in the back half of the EH500 and bend the LED (Carefully) so that it is in the right Location.

 

4. Wire the rear LED contacts from the DN163K0A to the Flipped Board in the back Half of the locomotive.

 

5. Profit ?!?!?!??!

 

Do I have to worry about any heat build up as you have mentioned? is it just nuisance or will it actually cause harm? Should I solder all connections or just add pads as you have?

 

Also would this method work with a Kato EH200? can you insert DN163KXX into an other Japanese kato EF Series Locomotives?

 

Thanks in advance :)

[inobu]

ShinCanadaSen,

 

I edited the process and adding a few things. Go through dry runs 3 or 4 times to understand what and why each step is necessary.  

 

The secret in installing is to understand the reasoning behind each step. Once you do that you will be able to modify the steps for any decoder installation.

 

It looks like the EH200 is the same chassis.

 

Inobu

 

I need to proof read my stuff  (but it takes so long) .... at least people can better understand it.  

[quinntopia]

Hmmm...what happened to Inobu's photos associated with this thread? I know I haven't been on this forum in some time, but it seems like all the threads on the forum have lost their image links?  Or is it my OS (I tried to see if there were issues with Firefox or Chrome, but neither allow the images posted here to render).  Hmmm...

[inobu]

Qinn I fixed the link. Most of my post have lost their image links because of the forum

Migration. I think it's because of the way I posted the image numbers. I try to fix the

Broken links as I run across comments concerning them.

Inobu

[katoftw]

Thank you for the info.  The decoder required is the same as the EF210 and DF200 decoders right?

[inobu]

Thank you for the info.  The decoder required is the same as the EF210 and DF200 decoders right?

Yes, but remember that I had to shave the gray pin/dowel down. Do not cut the gray pin/dowel just shave it down lower so the decoder can fit flush.

That way there is enough of the pin left to hold the pickup in place.

 

Edited September 3, 2014 by inobu

[gavino200]

I just had my first go at this with an EH-200. I used a DN163KOA. It works but I can't get the casing on completely right. It's about a half a milimeter proud, which is pretty noticable. 

 

I spent a lot of time jiggling with it to no avail. It seems like the decoder isn't a great fit at the rear of the cab. I tried using capton tape to hold it down, as shown in the picture but to no avail. 

 

I'm assuming others haven't had this problem or have solved it. Any advise would be welcome. I'm going to take it apart and redo it anyway as I'd like to have pick up from both units anyway.

 

Are there other decoders that fit? Someone mentioned a TCS KOD8. Anyone have any luck with that?

 

 

Edit: It turns out that the shell wouldn't fit on right because I had damaged one of the tabs inside. Fits fine now. Unfortunately I didn't realize that was the reason until I switched the decoder with a KOD8. No bother, I have a spare DN163 now, which I'm sure I'll get use out of. Maybe in a EH-500

 

FYI the KOD8 is a better fit and a slightly easier install. Transponding aside, that would be my preference in future. 

 

Also, I passed wires to get pickup from both units. This wasn't hard and makes the loco run much more smoothly at low speeds. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by gavino200

[inobu]

it looks like its has the same chassis as the EH500 which makes me think about the dowel or the cut outs on the roof. .

 

There was an issue with the dowel that lifted the decoder up. I trimmed the dowel down just enough to hold the pickup but avoid lifting the decoder.

 

I would pop the gray paragraph base off to see whats going on. 

 

Inobu

[Melandir]

I just had my first go at this with an EH-200. I used a DN163KOA. It works but I can't get the casing on completely right. It's about a half a milimeter proud, which is pretty noticable. 

 

I spent a lot of time jiggling with it to no avail. It seems like the decoder isn't a great fit at the rear of the cab. I tried using capton tape to hold it down, as shown in the picture but to no avail. 

 

I'm assuming others haven't had this problem or have solved it. Any advise would be welcome. I'm going to take it apart and redo it anyway as I'd like to have pick up from both units anyway.

 

Are there other decoders that fit? Someone mentioned a TCS KOD8. Anyone have any luck with that?

 

 

Edit: It turns out that the shell wouldn't fit on right because I had damaged one of the tabs inside. Fits fine now. Unfortunately I didn't realize that was the reason until I switched the decoder with a KOD8. No bother, I have a spare DN163 now, which I'm sure I'll get use out of. Maybe in a EH-500

 

FYI the KOD8 is a better fit and a slightly easier install. Transponding aside, that would be my preference in future. 

 

Also, I passed wires to get pickup from both units. This wasn't hard and makes the loco run much more smoothly at low speeds. 

 

I used the TCS for my install and passed the wires for pickup so I have all axes that will be used to pick up current and this improve the situation

 

I used the original lightboard to light the second half of the loco as you did

[gavino200]

It appears that the term "drop in" is figurative speaking. I think I will start soldering the brass pickups to the decoder so it will make a solid connections.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

Did you ever end up doing this? I'm not happy with my DCC install. The contact just isn't great. It works most of the time, but from time to time it will just stop and needs a little tap to go again. 

[inobu]

Did you ever end up doing this? I'm not happy with my DCC install. The contact just isn't great. It works most of the time, but from time to time it will just stop and needs a little tap to go again. 

 

Yes, i used flux to create a puddle to stretch the bead of solder. 

 

 

 

You want a thin layer of solder to push down on the pick up. It you place too much it will not only push the pick up down 

but lift the board up and you will not be able to snap the gray board clip in place.

 

 

 

 

 

Ichi

[gavino200]

Yes, i used flux to create a puddle to stretch the bead of solder. 

 

 

 

You want a thin layer of solder to push down on the pick up. It you place too much it will not only push the pick up down 

but lift the board up and you will not be able to snap the gray board clip in place.

 

 

 

 

 

Ichi

 

Thanks Ichi. It's a fine balance between no contact and no closure. I'm tempted to try a tiny wired ESU decoder instead. I'm not impressed with this "Drop-in" installation.