Kairyu Co JKS0011 Kawasaki DB3 4-4-4

[domino]

Does anybody know anything about this train, model or real ??

 

Thanks

 

domino

Brian

[David]

You've probably already come across this:

 

http://www.chinesemodeltrains.com/encyclopedia_db3.html

 

While I can find other sources for the model and photos of the other (model) liveries, I can't find any official mention or photo of it. The model itself (in 3 different liveries) is a product of Bachmann China - no one else has ever modeled this "prototype".

 

The supposed history is that this is a Japanese built (Kawasaki) occupation era locomotive used in Northern China (Manchuria), and while Japan did bring a lot of locomotives in to aid in the modernization effort, some things that don't jibe for me:

 

The Japanese designs of that era where usually based around a 2-6-2 or larger arrangement. Even their tenderless designs like the C11 and C12 still used 6 driving wheels. When you look at the underside of the model you get the impression that it's a diesel engine with 4 steam engine type wheels added in the middle. That could just be poor modeling, or it could be a sign that this "prototype" was created by tossing some existing pieces together on a diesel power unit. There is also the fact that Japanese stream lined designs still left a lot of the wheels exposed - this model just has a perfectly straight edge running right down the model, again making it look like a diesel with parts thrown on.

 

The livery really hurts the believability – actual Japanese practice at the time was to paint steam locomotives all black, and even later when captured locomotives where put into use by the Republic of China, the blue livery was not nearly as deep (more like a pale sky blue) – this gets into the worst part, the supposed occupation era livery of purple and yellow. Apart from the fact that no Imperial Japanese planner would ever approve such a color scheme, I doubt that it was even possible with the pigment technology of the time. While very expensive and thus reserved for royalty, purple did exist at the time (the Chinese invented Han purple pigment and used in decorations for the emperor over 2000 years ago), but the extremely light purple seen on the model just should not have been possible to produce in the quantities or qualities needed to paint an operating steam locomotives in the 30s and 40s (Han purple should have peeled off before they even left the station).

[domino]

You've probably already come across this:

 

http://www.chinesemodeltrains.com/encyclopedia_db3.html

 

While I can find other sources for the model and photos of the other (model) liveries, I can't find any official mention or photo of it. The model itself (in 3 different liveries) is a product of Bachmann China - no one else has ever modeled this "prototype".

 

The supposed history is that this is a Japanese built (Kawasaki) occupation era locomotive used in Northern China (Manchuria), and while Japan did bring a lot of locomotives in to aid in the modernization effort, some things that don't jibe for me:

 

The Japanese designs of that era where usually based around a 2-6-2 or larger arrangement. Even their tenderless designs like the C11 and C12 still used 6 driving wheels. When you look at the underside of the model you get the impression that it's a diesel engine with 4 steam engine type wheels added in the middle. That could just be poor modeling, or it could be a sign that this "prototype" was created by tossing some existing pieces together on a diesel power unit. There is also the fact that Japanese stream lined designs still left a lot of the wheels exposed - this model just has a perfectly straight edge running right down the model, again making it look like a diesel with parts thrown on.

 

The livery really hurts the believability – actual Japanese practice at the time was to paint steam locomotives all black, and even later when captured locomotives where put into use by the Republic of China, the blue livery was not nearly as deep (more like a pale sky blue) – this gets into the worst part, the supposed occupation era livery of purple and yellow. Apart from the fact that no Imperial Japanese planner would ever approve such a color scheme, I doubt that it was even possible with the pigment technology of the time. While very expensive and thus reserved for royalty, purple did exist at the time (the Chinese invented Han purple pigment and used in decorations for the emperor over 2000 years ago), but the extremely light purple seen on the model just should not have been possible to produce in the quantities or qualities needed to paint an operating steam locomotives in the 30s and 40s (Han purple should have peeled off before they even left the station).

 

 

Thanks for info

 

domino

 

 

 

 

[David]

I'm taking a wild guess and saying it's another Bachmann fantasy locomotive. They did the same thing with the MDT Plymouth (my favorite little American switcher). Plymouth did make many small industrial switchers, just not the one that Bachmann produced (the MDT looks like it's Bachmann's 0-6-0 steam mechanism with a diesel shell). The benefit to Bachmann is they don't have to do any research, and they can tailor the "prototype" to whatever is easiest to produce. This DB3 looks the same - it's clearly inspired by the streamlined passenger locomotives used in Manchuria, Bachmann just hasn't bothered to research and model a specific prototype (instead its a diesel mechanism with an odd shell and some extra wheels).

[marknewton]

All this theorising is fine and well, but for one thing - the DB3's certainly did exist. Apart from photographs and descriptions in the trade press at the time, and others showing the engines in service, there was the substantial remains of one surviving in the late 1970s at a Chinese engine shed. I'd have to find my notes from that trip to name the place, but I was in a group of touring Australian railfans that saw it. I may even have a photo of my own somewhere.

 

As for the design of these locos, they were heavily influenced by the contemporary Henschel Baureihe 61 class engines of the Deutsche Reichsbahn, including the colour scheme. I suspect that Kawasaki were also aware of the Hungarian MAV class 242 4-4-4T engines built around the same time.

 

I'm about to head off to work, but I will scan and post a photo I have of a DB3 in service when I have some time tomorrow. I'd also like to discuss the colour schemes, as I believe David's comments on those need to be corrected.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[David]

If there are photos of this please post if possible - if this prototype existed do you know off hand if it was created by China prior to the occupation, or was this really a Japanese design?

[bikkuri bahn]

Preliminary search shows little information in Japanese, though one site (listing the contents of a Chinese published picture book of steam locos) describes this loco as a "Reading Type" no. 500, built by KHI in 1936.  Interestingly, the DB3 moniker is used for a Baldwin 2-6-4 built in 1906.

 

http://cart02.lolipop.jp/LA04090580/?mode=ITEM2&p_id=PR00101083759

[bikkuri bahn]

A bit more search turned up the South Manchurian Rlwy. designation for this loco type: "Dabusa", dabu being short for double ender (i.e. tank configuration).  Gotta go now, but will try to find more info later.

[marknewton]

Preliminary search shows little information in Japanese, though one site (listing the contents of a Chinese published picture book of steam locos) describes this loco as a "Reading Type" no. 500, built by KHI in 1936.

 

Interesting. This is presumably a reference to the Reading Railroad C1a 4-4-4s built in their company shops in 1915, since many published versions of Whyte give this as the name for the 4-4-4 wheel arrangement.

 

 

Interestingly, the DB3 moniker is used for a Baldwin 2-6-4 built in 1906.

 

Clark's "Locomotives In China" illustrates SMR classes DB1, a 2-6-4T built by Alco-Richmond in 1907, and DB2, a 2-6-4T built by KSK, Hitachi and Kawasaki between 1934-36. The plot thickens! 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

A bit more search turned up the South Manchurian Rlwy. designation for this loco type: "Dabusa", dabu being short for double ender (i.e. tank configuration).

 

There is detailed explanation of the classification of Chinese steam locos in Clark's book. The system was based on that used by the Japanese during the occupation, and is effectively and extension of the SMR classification system. I have to head off soon, too, but I will be posting a photo, hopefully today!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bikkuri bahn]

Additional information from the Japanese S. Manchurian Rlwy wiki page:

 

1. two units built dabusa #500 and #501, later #1 and #2

2. 2000mm diameter drivers

3. cylinder bore x stroke (mm): 470 x 660

4. boiler pressure: 15.5kg/square cm

5. grate area: 2.28 square meters

6. total weight(?): 99.89t

7. weight on drivers: 40.44t

 

Developed as a substitute engine for the diesel train "jite" when that broke down or was in shop.  Intended for high speed light passenger service. Design inspired by Imperial German Rlwy 61 type 2C2 tank (1934) and Lubeck Buchen(?) 1B1 tank design of 1936.

Design originally intended to be of 2B3 configuration.  Streamlined body developed with the assistance of the Kawanishi Aircraft Corp. (later to achieve fame as builders of flying boats as well as the outstanding Shiden fighter).  Equipped with SKF roller bearings and Schmidt type E superheater, along with oil firing.  Adding poppet valves was considered (or perhaps installed at one time?), but in the end was not used.  When burning oil extracted from shale sourced from the Bujun coal mine, firebox overheat and breakdown was experienced. Apparently this type was not widely used, use being restricted to light passenger trains (perhaps as per the original design intentions).

After the end of the war, transfered to Chinese State Railways, which designated it the [LD1] type.

 

 

Digital rendering (photos seem sparse prob. due to copyright and fact that there were few railfans in Manchuria w/ cameras at that time):

 

http://www.candymountain.jp/Home/machine/sl/dabsa500.jpg

[marknewton]

Developed as a substitute engine for the diesel train "jite" when that broke down or was in shop.  Intended for high speed light passenger service. Design inspired by Imperial German Rlwy 61 type 2C2 tank (1934) and Lubeck Buchen(?) 1B1 tank design of 1936.

 

That would be the Lübeck-Büchener Eisenbahn. I'd forgotten about their three Henschel streamlined tank engines!

 

 

These engines later became Reichsbahn BR60s. Also, here's a view of the Henschel BR61 61001.

 

 

Equipped with SKF roller bearings and Schmidt type E superheater, along with oil firing.  Adding poppet valves was considered (or perhaps installed at one time?), but in the end was not used.

 

Having had a close look at the remains, I can confirm the roller bearing axleboxes and oil firing. (I wish I could remember where we saw the thing. Changchun?)

 

I doubt that poppet valves were ever fitted, the valve chests on the engine we saw were for conventional piston valves.

 

And thanks for posting that information, BB!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

If there are photos of this please post if possible - if this prototype existed do you know off hand if it was created by China prior to the occupation, or was this really a Japanese design?

 

Definitely a Japanese design, but with a strong German influence. Based on my admittedly imperfect translation of an article I was shown in an old Henschel publication, there was some relationship between Henschel and Kawasaki. The DB3 had numerous boiler and mechanical design features taken directly from contemporary German practice - pressed and welded firebox foundation bar, Trofimoff piston valves, separate dome for the feedwater clack valves, etc.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

Finally had a chance to find the book and scan the photo...

 

 

I've included the caption, so that someone better qualified than me can provide a translation. 

 

(Still looking for my own transparency and field notes.)

 

On the subject of the livery colours, I think it's incorrect to say that the pigment technology of the day couldn't have produced a durable light purple, when there were many examples of trains and trams painted that shade that predate the DB3s. The BR61s and the matching Wegmann stock had a band of a similiar purple, while the 1928 Rheingold cars carried a somewhat lighter purple shade. Numerous tramways also used lightish purples in their liveries, including an Australian tramway before WW1. Looking beyond railway and tramway applications, similar purples were used in camouflage paint schemes during WW1.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bikkuri bahn]

My rough translation:

Dabusa on test run.  All wheels and crankpins roller-bearing equipped.  Oil burning with high temperatures in the firebox.  Often resulted in damage to boiler tubes.  Showa 11. Test location somewhere in the Dairen (Dalian) area.

[marknewton]

Now that's very interesting, two separate mentions of the firebox/boiler being damaged by oil burning. Also the mention of shale oil. Based on my own experience of engines fired on oil, I'll hazard a guess and say the main problem was the sulphur content of the oil, and the formation of excess soot. Fascinating stuff, bb!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.