Starting japanese N gauge!

[Tecchan]

Hello trains addicts!

 

I'll start by a brief "story of my life", if you're not interested, skip the next 3 paragraphs… ^^,

 

I'm currently in Japan for my 2nd trip, this time is a long trip: 6 months. (you can visit my blog if you are interested, but it's in french).

During my first trip in 2006, I fell in love with japanese trains. There was a train addict hidden inside of me since my childhood, my grandfather was a railwayman and I grew up near the trains, literally speaking, his house is on the back side of a train station. But this trip in japan woke this addict up!

 

At the moment, I spent lots of time watching trains in shops but I never bought any. Coming back home I started Lego Trains which I love: any piece of couch or loc' I don't like anymore, I just rebuild a new one. I'll keep "playing" Lego train, especially this year because they will release new models this summer.

 

Lego trains give me lots of fun, but they have two majors problems for me: it's hard to be 100% like a train we like (eg: I tried to build a Shinkansen in Lego, it's god dam hard, I stopped) and It takes a lot, a lot of space…

 

Anyway… this is the story of my life… ;-)

 

I'm in Japan since more than one month now and I finally decided to start a N scale model train! First of all because it's the only way to find lots of stuffs on japanese trains and because it's a lot cheaper than HO (I had a Märklin train when I was a kid, for the price of one loc, I could build a complete layout with two trains in japanese N).

 

Now the big question, is always the same for a beginner like me: Tomix or Kato.

 

I know, I've read lots of articles on the web and on this forum: it's a matter of personal taste. Having tasted neither of them, I can't say witch one i prefer…

 

I'll tell you my pros and cons, don't hesitate to comment or correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm planning to start a Shinkansen layout (probably not fixed at the beginning) but as I travelled a lot with local trains last month, I wanted also to make a 2nd layout with japans local trains. I'm also open to the idea to add Swiss trains to the layout later. And for the moment, I'm not really interessed in DCC, but this is something to consider for later. Let's say we forget it for this choice.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Tomix train would perfectly work on Kato tracks. So it's really a matter of "how to start".

The only train I want to have no matter what is Shinkansen 300 Series. I'm just in love with it's bold design. But, again, if the Kato 300 is better than the Tomix one, the brand of the tracks doesn't matter anyway. Right?!

So really a starting problem and a questioning about: when I leave Japan.

 

Tomix

I watched lots of pictures and they seem perfectly done. I fell in love with two starter sets: The Yamanote line E231 (I think) with a 3 cars set and the gorgeous Shinkansen 0 6 cars starter set.

If I lived in Japan, I thing I would totally go with Tomix, it's the leader, a large range of tracks, beautiful models, etc. But I don't live in Japan…

 

Kato

… I live in Switzerland. And Tomix is only sold in Japan while Kato is more worldwide. I discover yesterday the even have swiss trains…

So Kato would be a better choice because I would be more able to order new stuffs and even find new parts without ordering every time in Japan. Plus: if I want something complicated (eg: DCC) I would fine documentation in english more easily. Plus: they have lots of buildings, stations and stuffs to add around the track (where the track height does matter).

But the starters sets don't looks as sexy as the Tomix ones. And I think I have a good feeling with Tomix, but I'm afraid I will be stuck for enhancing my layout once I get back home.

 

What do you think?

Should I follow my heart and go for the Shinkansen 0 because either Kato or Tomix will be as hard to find back home or should I think more about back home and start with Unitrack because they are easier to find back home. And, in the end, the two brands are not far from each other...

I must add I'm not afraid to order online from Japan, I'm doing it each month for the 5 past years for figures.

 

Please help me and thank you for reading all of this!!!

 

Kumo

 

PS: I hope my english is OK, I'm more into japanese for the moment... ;)

[Martijn Meerts]

With regards to the 300 series, if you're in Japan, you might want to pick up the Tomix 300 series. That ones just got re-released and is an entirely new design. It has power pick-up on ALL the wheels of the entire train.

 

As for the track, I have both Unitrack (Kato) and Finetrack (Tomix). I only have an oval of Unitrack, which came with a Santa Fe F3 starter set, but I have lots of Finetrack. The reason I went Finetrack is that is was easier to get for me at the time, and once I had a few pieces, I just preferred how it looks. In my opinion, the Unitrack roadbed looks a bit too big and too plastic. Finetrack also has more options with regards to curves, and there's the "tram track" with the mini curves and turnouts. All trains will run on either Unitrack or Finetrack, so there's no problem there.

 

While Kato does indeed make a lot of US and European models as well, it's not easy getting their Japanese models outside of Japan. Or at least, it's not as easy as getting their US and European models. Also, ordering from Japan is almost always cheaper then buying outside of Japan. There are some very good (online) stores outside of Japan that specialize in Japanese trains however, so those are worth a look as well.

 

You can't go wrong no matter what you pick though. Trains run equally well on either track systems, and both of them are really sturdy. If push comes to shove, you can always combine the 2 track systems, there are conversion pieces for Unitrack <-> Finetrack.

 

 

As for the LEGO stuff, it's great =) I don't have any of it anymore, but I used to have some of the original battery powered sets with the blue track. Wish I never got rid of it, but that's life ;)

 

Aren't they coming out with an entirely new system (again) soon? I seem to have read something about that.

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

 

I think you are asking a question that many of us face here on the boards.

 

Tomix track has much more variety!  Kato track is more readily available!

 

Only you can answer your question..

 

Will you be satisfied with the limited variety of Kato track?  Most people are more than happy and are able to be quite creative with the limited amount of variation in Kato track.

 

Do you want your layout to be something more complex?  Using 3-way switches, double-slip switches, very small radius curves for tram operations?  If so, Tomix is your winner.

 

Jon

[Bernard]

Kumo - Welcome to the forum and your English is fine. You have a major advantage over most of the members in that you will be in Japan for a few months therefore getting any brand you want won't be a problem.

As for which track, that's up to you and what you will feel comfortable working with, but while you're in Japan go to the Hobby shops and ask questions also see what track they are using on their store layouts (assuming they have a layout set up)

As far as the Shinkansen, get the one you want and since you'll be running DC either Kato or Tomix is fine.

[KenS]

I would say: don't overthink the problem.  Whether you start with Tomix or Kato, you can add track or trains from the other later.  Trains are easy, since they all run on 12 volt DC (okay, some Tomix systems add their "constant lighting" trick circuits, but the trains would still work on DC).  Track is a little harder, but Kato's snap-track adapter was supposedly originally developed for use with Tomix track. Buy something that appeals to you, regardless of who makes it.

 

Tomix does have the problem of all the documentation being in Japanese. But most things are pretty obvious, and you can always ask questions when they aren't.  And ordering stuff internationally isn't necessarily cheap, but it is possible, so you can get more once you're back in Switzerland (I presume; I've only ever had stuff shipped to the U.S.).

 

I think Tomix has nicer-looking track, but Kato's seems like it would stand up to repeated assembly/disassembly better.  However, I have very limited experience with Tomix as I've mainly used Kato for the past two years. In trains, Tomix has a reputation for problems with DCC, and that's something to keep in mind for your future plans.  And don't rule out the other manufacturers, particularly since you're in Japan. MicroAce in particular makes very nice trains.

 

My first Japanese train was a Kato Yamanote E231, and I'm very happy with it. The current version looks very good, and I've been thinking of getting one. To my eye, the Tomix version doesn't look quite as good (look closely at the front of the cab in the photos of both models). But from any reasonable viewing distance, it's unlikely you could tell.

 

And welcome to the forum; your English is fine, and interesting conversations are what we're here for.

[Mudkip Orange]

I'm in complete agreement with Ken; if you want a Yamanote Line E231, get the Kato version. Note that you'll have to buy at least one expansion set to get it to look right (7 or 8 cars, respectively).

 

As far as track, well, I go with Kato because I can buy it in any LHS. But I will be the first to admit that Tomix's turnout geometry is a lot more intuitive than Kato's is, and if I were going to invest a lot of money in a layout with complex trackwork up front I'd probably go with Tomix. Alas, complex trackwork is outside of my price range, and in that situation Kato works the best for me.

[CaptOblivious]

FWIW, Kato does not, nor to my knowledge has ever, produced a 300 series. So your hands are tied there!

 

I say: Go get the recently released Tomix 300, and see what you think. Were I you, I'd just buy whichever was least expensive, because, frankly, you can't go wrong!

 

Also, note that Kato's Japanese models are hard to acquire outside of Japan, so don't worry about which one is easier to acquire once you leave Japan: All will be pretty much equally hard. Or rather, equally easy :D

[Tecchan]

Thanks all of you for your answers!

I really enjoyed it!!

 

 

@Martijn Meerts

For the 300 series: let's go for the brand new one from Tomix, no hesitations on that one!

I'll show you pictures of my lego trains when I come back home. I really love them! Yeas they are re-releasing the "power functions" trains in a new model. The released the gorgeous Emerald Night but to motorise it it would cost you a fortune and you have to add lots of ugly and huges pieces that destroys it's design. The new design seems better ad the motor would be on the boogie only.

What's frighten me is not having trouble finding trains, I know I will have to order them. I was just thinking that maybe Kato tracks are more available. But after some searches, it seems that Kato is popular in the US, but in Europe, Trix, Fleischmann and some others are more popular. I have to also say that N gauge doesn't seem to be popular in Europe...

So I think finding tracks will be as hard for either of them...

 

@Bernard

As I said, if I stayed in Japan, this wouldn't be a problem, but I will going bak home someday. At least my girlfriend hopes it lol.

"go to the Hobby shops and ask questions also see what track they are using on their store" the only one I was able to find here in Fukuoka is just a huge store (Yodobashi Camera) with a part with trains, not a layout here. But if you have addresses or a place wher I can find one, I'd be happy to hear! :-)

Thad makes me think that I saw in Osaka a store in witch there was a huge layout and you could rent a train for like half an hour and play with it on their layout. Now I regret I didn't do it, it was really cheap.

 

@KenS & Mudkip Orange

I know what you mean for the Yamanote. But I saw only the Tomix starter set in the shop I went. I'll think about if but I wanted to buy two starter sets to be able to make a double layout from the beginning. A regular track and a Shinkansen track! :-)

I'll think about it a bit before buying it! :-)

 

@many of you

"Only you can answer your question.."

"don't overthink the problem [...] Buy something that appeals to you, regardless of who makes it."

It might be stupid, but I think I needed to hear things like that! Thank you guys!!

 

 

So I'll think I will listen to my heart and go for fine tracks. As Kato and Tomix will be equaly hard to find in Europe, I'll start with this one:

 

 

Because it's f*****g awesome!! :-)

Plus I think a 3 car starter set for a Shinkansen is kinda ridiculous. That works for a train like the Yamanote, but a train like series 500 Shinkansen looks just stupid with 3 cars...

This on has also a second track with switches plus a small station I can extend later. I think it's a bit the king of the starters set.

For the rest, I'll see if I buy a Yamanote starter set or another train... I have also to keep some money for my beloved 300 and some tracks extensions.

 

I'll order the rest from home and I'll go for Kato swiss models later on (when I'll be full of japanese trains). It won't matter because they will work anyway.

 

Last question: a Kato DCC equiped train will work on a Tomix layout right?!

 

Thanks a lot for your help.

I live in a host family with only my host mother who doesn't speak english. I think she will be laughing when she'll see me coming home with my big box! :-D

But she already know that I love train.

 

And last but not least: tomorrow I take the first train in the morning to the Minami-Hakata Shinkansen depot. I'll make nice pictures and share them with you guys!

 

Thanks again and see you soon!

 

Kumo

[David]

Last question: a Kato DCC equiped train will work on a Tomix layout right?!

 

Yes and no.

 

If you are using the power supply you get with your Tomix set, no. That's a DC power supply.

 

If you use Tomix track, but plug it into a DCC controller/system instead of the Tomix controller, then you can. Keep in mind that you would then have a possible issue with the DC trains (DCC includes a way of running one DCC train, but it can be hard on the motor).

 

You really need to approach it from the point of a DC vs. DCC layout. Out of the box all of Kato's Japanese stuff is DC just like Tomix, for the models that are compatible you need to buy the drop in DCC decoders (for the majority of Kato models, and all Tomix models, you need to take apart the train and solder in your own decoder to turn it into a DCC train).

[bill937ca]

 

Because it's f*****g awesome!! :-)

Plus I think a 3 car starter set for a Shinkansen is kinda ridiculous. That works for a train like the Yamanote, but a train like series 500 Shinkansen looks just stupid with 3 cars...

 

 

The Tomix starter sets are known to be targeted at young children getting their first train set often as a birthday present. That's why its 3 cars.  Typical age is 8-12 years and its a market where parents are being cautious financially with the first purchase.

[Martijn Meerts]

@Martijn Meerts

For the 300 series: let's go for the brand new one from Tomix, no hesitations on that one!

I'll show you pictures of my lego trains when I come back home. I really love them! Yeas they are re-releasing the "power functions" trains in a new model. The released the gorgeous Emerald Night but to motorise it it would cost you a fortune and you have to add lots of ugly and huges pieces that destroys it's design. The new design seems better ad the motor would be on the boogie only.

What's frighten me is not having trouble finding trains, I know I will have to order them. I was just thinking that maybe Kato tracks are more available. But after some searches, it seems that Kato is popular in the US, but in Europe, Trix, Fleischmann and some others are more popular. I have to also say that N gauge doesn't seem to be popular in Europe...

So I think finding tracks will be as hard for either of them...

 

One of the things I dislike about the modern Lego, is all the large custom pieces that seem awfully popular now. Sure, the end-result looks better (less blocky), but for me the main fun in Lego was the building. I never played with it after I built the stuff. I just tore it down to either build it again, or try some of the alternative builds. I've wanted to buy some Lego again for quite a while already, but those large pieces have effectively stopped me from doing so. Lego Technic still looks quite nice though.

 

As for N-scale in Europe, your best bet for easy to get track is Fleischmann. Apart from their pre-ballasted track (which I personally don't like, looks WAY too plastic), they've also taken over Roco's track system. Roco track is cheap but still of high quality. Of course, this only really works if you build a more permanent layout. None of the European N-scale track holds up well to continuos setting up and tearing down of flood layouts.

 

There's also Minitrix, which has a large selection of track. On my father's layout we use a lot of Minitrix track, and while it generally runs just fine, there can be massive headaches with turnouts. Especially the slim curved turnouts are downright bad. Also, Trix isn't doing too well, especially their service is terrible right now. My father has 2 locomotives that have been at the Trix service for repairs for well over a year, and no news and when (if?) he'll get them back.

 

If you want a friendly shop owner to talk to about Tomix Finetrack, you can check out japanmodelrailways.de. It's a store in Kamen, Germany, and he's an official Tomix dealer. The shop owner is very friendly and extremely helpful. You'll pay a bit more than ordering directly from Japan, but I've found it nice to have someone fairly close by to talk to ;)

 

 

Last question: a Kato DCC equiped train will work on a Tomix layout right?!

 

A Kato DCC equipped train will run on any track, providing you power the track with a DCC system. As David already said, the standard Tomix controllers are all DC, they don't do DCC at all (yet). As long as you have a DCC command station, you can run whatever brand loco (as long as it's equipped with a DCC decoder) on whatever brand tracks.

 

Considering you're just starting out, and you're already considering DCC, I would recommend moving to DCC before getting a sizable collection of trains. If you're not comfortable with soldering, or if you're stuck with or unsure about a decoder install, there's plenty people on the forum here that can help ;)

 

Another thing, if you go DCC, but you don't want automated running (which means you don't need to divide the layout into blocks), you can always add a switch which allows you do switch between DCC and DC. That way you can run both DCC and DC trains on the layout, although of course not both at the same time.

[CaptOblivious]

I regularly run Kato and other DCC equipped trains with my Tomix DC throttle. So, contrary to what others here have said: Yes you can!  You just don't have access to all the fancy DCC functions, nor can you program the decoders.

 

Also, many DCC command stations permit the running of nonDCC equipped trains (with some limitations: can only control one loco independently).

 

BUT!! Tomix CL (constant lighting) throttle functions are rumored to fry decoders! Does the set you bought have a CL function? If so, REMOVE any decoders (easy peasy with the Kato models!) before running them with your throttle.

[railzilla]

Hi Kumo,

 

I am also live in Swiss. You can send a parcel via seamail from Japan to Switzerland. So the postage is very low and you can send bulky items like track and buildings. I imported all my Unitrack from Japan as it is difficult to get in Switzerland and not all pieces are available. So if you buy a large parcel you can safe some money buy even more track. For example popondetta.jp ships by seamail and it works very well. For smaller things like trains you still can use airmail. If you are starter i suggest to wait with DCC. I am electronician and like fancy electronic.  But you need to spend more.  And when it comes to Tomix ore Micro Ace you need some soldering skills. Don't forget Japanese trains need more decoders than loco hauled European or American trains because the function are distributed amongst different cars.. Both Kato an Tomix have way to automate a layout using pure DC technology.

[David]

I regularly run Kato and other DCC equipped trains with my Tomix DC throttle. So, contrary to what others here have said: Yes you can!  You just don't have access to all the fancy DCC functions, nor can you program the decoders.

 

Also, many DCC command stations permit the running of nonDCC equipped trains (with some limitations: can only control one loco independently).

 

BUT!! Tomix CL (constant lighting) throttle functions are rumored to fry decoders! Does the set you bought have a CL function? If so, REMOVE any decoders (easy peasy with the Kato models!) before running them with your throttle.

 

Running a DCC train on a DC throttle is entirely up to the DCC decoder - some decoders are dual mode (when it detects a DC signal it will just pass it straight through to the motor, though lights are anyones guess), some just keep their components from receiving the DC signal, and a few old bad ones could just (figurately) blow up.

 

Could you say which decoders you use? I'd be interested to know if the Digitrax derived Kato drop in decoders (EM13/FR11) support true dual mode operation. And did you need to fiddle with CV29, or was the analogue bit (allow DC operation) already set to 1 in the decoders you are using? I had always been told it was bad to leave that on unless you where running on DC since false readings or poor pickup could lead it to believe it was on DC momentarily and switch modes.

 

And I wouldn't run a DCC train on a CL power pack (at least not with the CL on). CL is some weird AC/pulse power setup, which bad for DCC decoders or coreless motors (DCC decoders should turn off when they start to overheat, coreless motors could be burnt out without ever moving).

[Tecchan]

Thanks again all of you!

 

 

Because it's f*****g awesome!! :-)

Plus I think a 3 car starter set for a Shinkansen is kinda ridiculous. That works for a train like the Yamanote, but a train like series 500 Shinkansen looks just stupid with 3 cars...

 

 

The Tomix starter sets are known to be targeted at young children getting their first train set often as a birthday present. That's why its 3 cars.  Typical age is 8-12 years and its a market where parents are being cautious financially with the first purchase.

Yeah, I totally understand that, if I would have bought a 3 cars starter set, I would also have added an extention set.

I didn't bean to be rude or criticize people who buy those sets. They simply doesn't fit me. Kato 4 cars starter sets are already more enjoyable.

 

For the DCC, I will wait, that's sure, but I just wanted to know, thank you!

 

@Martijn Meerts I also hate the metablocks that Lego has used last years, that's why I never bought the two RC train they launched some years ago. But they are turning back and returning to a traditional lego modeling focusing on new colors better than new blocks.

If you like train and you like Lego, take a look on the Emerald Night, it's really worth it!!

 

I'll also take a look on Fleischmann and Trix tracks but ordering online is really not a problem for me since I'm doing it for many years, so I think I'll stick with Tomix.

But the idea of tracks by sea and trains by plane is a good one. Especially if you buy larges tracks sets like elevated double tracks loops.

 

Thank you a lot!! I will probably buy it next week, I'll keep you informed.

 

Today I went to the Shinkansen depot and saw pretty nice things. I also spoke with a Shinkansen driver who offered me many gifts. Back to Hakata station I spent 1 to 2 hours on the decks just watching the trains.

I think I have some nice pics, I'll share them with you after my nap, I hat to wake up early...  

 

See you soon and thanks again!

[Tecchan]

Hi guys!

 

As promised, here is my post about my trip to the shinkansen depot.

 

And if you don't feel like reading french, you can just visit my flickr page and enjoy nice pictures.

 

See ya! :-)

[Nick_Burman]

I don't know if this has already ocurred to the UK and continental European members of this forum, but Dapol (UK model train manufacturer) is importing and distribuiting Tomix Fine Track in the UK. Don't know how prices compare with bringing the stuff directly from Japan, though. From the UK to Switzerland is just a hop...

 

After comparing the the two Japanese brands, I think that each one has its own niche. Frankly, I find Tomix Fine track hideous under anything other than Japanese (and maybe British) rolling stock. However, I find Kato track perfectly acceptable under European and North American equipment. It's all a question of looks.

 

Cheers Nicholas

[Tecchan]

Just bought some new straights rails in a 2nd hand shop!

 

What disappointed me the most about this set is that the train is too long for the station and the 2nd track around, so it's impossible to have a 2nd train running withe the full model on the tracks.

 

But 2 more 280 straights rails will allow my future 8 cars 300 series to fit on the same basic layout (even if I will extend the whole thing and try to buy a upper-head station for the shinkansen and a ground one for the local trains)!