Observations on Tomix & Kato and Japanese model trains

[bill937ca]

I recently came across some notes I had made a couple of years after searching through various discussion groups when I first seriously started looking at Japanese trains. The sources included an European magazine editor, an European distributor for Kato, at least a couple of dealers, a management consultant, a former Kato USA contract employee and a Western railfan / modeler living in Japan.

 

I’ve also been searching in Japanese in Google for the last couple of months and have learned quite a bit. Some of that knowledge, in particular, has changed how I view some products.

 

Model trains seem to appeal to three broad groups.

 

1. over 50%-- are kids (and dads) just playing with trains, no model railroading

2. over 30%--have a train table with a trackplan from a trackplan book and lots of rolling stock

3. about 20%--modelers who try to create a model railroad, run to scale speed, etc.

 

That is probably about normal elsewhere in the world.  Discussion boards like this are probably about 85% or more modelers.

 

There is a very pronounced toy end to the model train market in Japan as well a modeler end. Tomix appears to be targeted at the lower end of the model train market and Kato at the upper end of the model train market.  Model railroading is much higher per capita in Japan.  The Japanese model train market is probably about 15-20 times the US market and the toy end of the market has been estimated at 4-5 times the US N scale market.

 

I’ve seen children as young as about five years old running model trains at Japanese model train shows on web sites and in videos, so children are exposed to model trains at a very young age.  Tomix seems to be very active in this segment. The B-Train Shorty was aimed at this segment but proved popular with adults too.  Apart from the Pocket Line drives, Kato seems to pay little attention to this segment.

 

The larger Japanese model train manufacturers look at allocating tooling, production and manufacturing costs over a very long time, as much as 10 to 20 years.  The higher prices for Greenmax and Micro Ace models are probably reflect production costs recovered over much shorter production runs.

 

In Europe, model trains are produced for inventory stocking and the cost of comparable quality is much higher.  Japanese companies don’t like the profit implications of running a company that way.  I’ve seen indications that pre-orders extend beyond model trains into other retail segments in Japan.

 

Japanese train stores were described as having 3 times as much Tomix stock on average as Kato by an observer living outside Tokyo.  There could be various reasons for this.  Tomix may have more generous credit.  Kato may simply appeal to a more limited segment.

 

Tomix

 

Tomix products seem to be aimed at the lower end of the model train market and the upper (or later) end of the toy market.

 

Tomix is apparently favored when as a first real model train birthday present for small boys about the ages of 8-12.  The choice is usually a Shinkansen and / or a starter pack.  Parents are familiar with the Tomy name because of its other toy products like Tomica transportation models, Tomy Q-Train, and its plastic track Plarail toy train product lines. The observer had never seen a boy chose Kato.

 

The three car Tomix sets are identified by the Japanese model train media as beginner sets. The Tomix 4008 shops has also been identified as beginner product by RMM and it has been on the market since about the 1980s.  Kato also has non-train products that have been on the market for this long.

 

I think most Tomix production is now in China, but a Tomy timeline shows Tomy owns at least two factories in China so its production may still be in house.

 

Kato

 

Kato is both a brand name and a company name.  In fact there are two companies.  Sekisui Kinzoku Co. Ltd. handles the model planning, engineering and production.  Kato Co. Ltd. handles sales. 

 

Kato is a very conservative company, especially about growth.  It is a family business and is generally typical of Japanese and European family businesses.  Once the plan is set, nothing will change the plan.  The plan is more important than market conditions. Being attuned to market conditions is viewed as being too risky for management abilities and available capital.  Observers say Kato is driven by a production mentality, not a marketing mentality.

 

The Kato distributor noted that Kato only listens to the Japanese market for new products—even with repeated requests including plugs for Kato power packs in non-Japanese markets.

 

A dealer observation is that new Kato items are announced, customers order and when released they sell pretty well. But there are times when Kato only delivers 70%-80% of the pre-orders (and I’ve read this elsewhere).  If the dealers order more stock, they may be stuck with un-sellable inventory and that happened a few years ago with the Kato 9600 and EF 210.

 

Kato is moving its production to China. 23-421, 23-458, 23-478, 23-417, 23-432B, 23-435B all say “Made in China” on the box. 

 

Generally Kato train boxes are not marked with where they are produced. The only exception I’ve found is the Hankyu 6300 10- 050 set which is labeled “Made in Japan”. I’ve heard that if a Kato box doesn’t say “Made in Japan” it may be “Made in China’ and I have received boxes from Japanese dealers with Japan as the country of origin and “Made in China” hand written on the green declaration label.

[cteno4]

Bill,

 

i would disagree tomix is focused on the lower end. I do see them going pretty toe to toe with kato. i think they use the tomytec line to focus more on the lower end train and high end toy, but i think their tomix line is geared to hit the same mark as kato. also i think some of the difference in how they do things is just a reflection of tomix being a small sub company of tomy and kato being the (relatively) small family business.

 

when tomix first was doing n scale they definitely were the econo brand, but i perceive that as having changed in the last decade to being the same quality and detail as kato. i know is most of the trains i know i find them pretty equivalent. the n700 is a good case in point. kato did a couple of higher quality details like the diaphragms and marking, but tomix came up with the all wheel pickup and almost always does 2 power cars in 16 car sets. operationally the tomix kicks the crap out of the kato. so i see tomix as trying to innovate as well to make better running trains.

 

also unitrak is more geared to the lower/toy level than finetrack. its robust and made to work in rougher surfaces and take more abuse (ie removable joiners). fine track has more prototypical road bed as well as a more prototypical set of track types. so thats a bit opposite.

 

anyhow my 1.5 cents.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Krackel Hopper]

I'm going to have to agree with cteno4 on this one.

 

Besides all the points Jeff makes, I'll add one more..

 

Tomix Steam Locomotive C57-135

 

One of the nicest detailed N-scale steamers on the market..  In plastic anyway..  Tomix attention to detail on this loco even rivals MicroAce.

 

Also - Tomix controllers.  Somehow the $1,200 TCS system controllers do not say "low end" to me..

[Hobby Dreamer]

Is the hobby experiencing any recent change, maybe because of the internet?

 

To a newcomer, Kato seems only conservative in their track type availability. They seem willing to sell to other markets and aggressively promote - both track and trains; and its hard to find a hobby shop without some Kato track so someone is buying it. The introduction of Unitram track must be a big departure for them not just because its new but that they changed their track spacing etc..

 

I wonder if they just live under the giant foot of Tomy. Also, how much of their product is import vs. domestic?

 

Its confusing why Tomix does not sell internationally. If one wants ballasted n scale track Kato is a mainstay, but who would not like the layout potential Tomix can offer?

 

I have products from Tomytec, Kato and MicroAce and quite frankly the quality of all three is amazing. They are pretty much at the threshold for molded plastic and tempo printing and only help diminish excuses for buying HO.

 

Its probably not fair (or easy) to compare train modelling between countries.  Here in N.A. there is just not that much of a train culture - people drive or fly, so interest in real trains is not common. (and we don't really have interesting trains). And a lot of first exposure to model trains is via big box or department stores where they tend to sell name brands no one has heard of and for which there is no expansion capability. And I'm certain the quality sucks so that tends to turn people off.

 

I see the appeal of electronic games but its not a hobby families can share and its not one where you develop skills, can be creative or have a proud accomplishment.

 

At least we are not lamenting this hobby's decline, which seems popular for many other hobbies!

[railzilla]

 

At least we are not lamenting this hobby's decline, which seems popular for many other hobbies!

 

 

Just join any American or European model rail forum. There you can read a lots of lamenting.

Of course in this forum we only can lament that there are to many new releases.

[bill937ca]

 

i would disagree tomix is focused on the lower end. I do see them going pretty toe to toe with kato. i think they use the tomytec line to focus more on the lower end train and high end toy, but i think their tomix line is geared to hit the same mark as kato. also i think some of the difference in how they do things is just a reflection of tomix being a small sub company of tomy and kato being the (relatively) small family business.

 

 

Yeah, I thought about the N700s earlier and forgot about the  N700s when I wrote this.  But the N700 and C57-135 are  fairly recent developments.  I should have mentioned that Tomix High Grade are comparable with anything Kato produces.

[cteno4]

Yeah, I thought about the N700s earlier and forgot about the  N700s when I wrote this.  But the N700 and C57-135 are  fairly recent developments.  I should have mentioned that Tomix High Grade are comparable with anything Kato produces.

 

i think this goes for many of the shinkansens, i have several in both tomix and kato and see no real difference in quality or detailing (but im not a rivet counter!) and these are not HG models. really couldnt put any of my tomix trains in a different class from the katos. most folks i find out there find it a either a toss up between the two or have a favorite, which to me points to there is not a whole lot of difference except for some minor differences on particular models or tiny things that just set some folks off more.

 

i do think the tomytec is in a different group on the trains from the tomix trains (regular or hg) and are a step in the toy direction, but when you compare the prices there is a big step as well so you cant expect $100 tram detail like the kato for the less than $50 tomytec portram!

 

i think the modern tomix is focused squarely on competing with kato and microace.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Is the hobby experiencing any recent change, maybe because of the internet?

 

To a newcomer, Kato seems only conservative in their track type availability. They seem willing to sell to other markets and aggressively promote - both track and trains; and its hard to find a hobby shop without some Kato track so someone is buying it. The introduction of Unitram track must be a big departure for them not just because its new but that they changed their track spacing etc..

 

I wonder if they just live under the giant foot of Tomy. Also, how much of their product is import vs. domestic?

 

Its confusing why Tomix does not sell internationally. If one wants ballasted n scale track Kato is a mainstay, but who would not like the layout potential Tomix can offer?

 

Kato is in stores as they have had their NA branch for like 24 years now, so they sell unitrak far and wide. Tomix is more like a traditional japanese company that sticks to japan. since they dont do north american trains like kato does the us market would be tiny for them (they are the major train manufacturer in japan) and thus not worth the time. even kato is very conservative with katousa, not letting it get past a certain size of the parent and with what and how it sell stuff. the us market is just a fraction of what the japanese market is, so this really limits what/how we see it, have to look at it from a japanese market perspective totally. kato does not even really supply parts for kato japanese trains thru katousa (once and a while they do, but mostly the wont)

 

I think tomy works on volume and they have a huge production capability behind them with all the business they do with production companies in china with all their toys. this means they probably have prototyping and die cutting systems at their disposal for doing stuff and thus why tomytec stuff can get turned out all the time with new stuff at aggressive price points. i doubt any small company could even think about doing this w/o these resources and deep pockets to make it happen. so with this mentality the NA market is just not worth perusing for track or even the tomytec items. i think in japan finetrack has most of the market with kato a second.

 

I have products from Tomytec, Kato and MicroAce and quite frankly the quality of all three is amazing. They are pretty much at the threshold for molded plastic and tempo printing and only help diminish excuses for buying HO.

 

Its probably not fair (or easy) to compare train modelling between countries.  Here in N.A. there is just not that much of a train culture - people drive or fly, so interest in real trains is not common. (and we don't really have interesting trains). And a lot of first exposure to model trains is via big box or department stores where they tend to sell name brands no one has heard of and for which there is no expansion capability. And I'm certain the quality sucks so that tends to turn people off.

 

yes i think its a lot on exposure to trains. in japan its probably more of an impression to children riding the train than a car. with NA kids they spend a good part of their childhood in cars, sad...

 

we did have a great kid quote this weekend at the cherry blossom festival. matthew was asking kids if they like trains and one kid said "NOW I DO!" (after seeing the layout). this is what we find all the time, the kids see our layout and its not the same as seeing the NA rr stuff (when we are at shows with both going on). theres a bit more of the rounded mouth and wide eyes going on. they ask if these are science fiction and its great to tell them no they are real and many of them are over 20 years old! they are amazed, its a total eye opener for them to see that trains can be more than the choo choo or freight train, but something out of star wars! frankly its the thing that keeps me going with the jrm layout when you see the look on those kids faces and i just hope that we make a permanent mark on a few little minds with every show, thats my payback.

 

I see the appeal of electronic games but its not a hobby families can share and its not one where you develop skills, can be creative or have a proud accomplishment.

 

At least we are not lamenting this hobby's decline, which seems popular for many other hobbies!

 

 

I think one problem is also free time. in NA free time has seemed to go away in the last few decades. I find so few folks i know have any true hobbies. most folks just say they have no time for it. thats sad. its part self expression, part relaxation, part just fun parts of life that we are supplanting with work and few express that their work does any of these things! I would hope at some point we wake up and this changes. instead of having to have the 7000sqft house and 3.5 SUVs we realize we can live with a lot less and have time and $$ to spend on hobbies and just getting out and having fun. as a bonus going out and having fun puts a lot more folks to work (especially in your local areas) than buying stuff does!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Mudkip Orange]

(and we don't really have interesting trains)

 

I'm going to have to slap you here.

 

US trains are AWESOME if you're into freight. We've got a huge variety of rolling stock, locomotives, paint jobs, etc... and how many other places in the world are you going to see 4, 5, and 6-unit diesel lashups. It's only when you get to passenger trains that things start to look... boring.

[cteno4]

US trains are AWESOME if you're into freight. We've got a huge variety of rolling stock, locomotives, paint jobs, etc... and how many other places in the world are you going to see 4, 5, and 6-unit diesel lashups. It's only when you get to passenger trains that things start to look... boring.

 

mudkip,

 

ill counter with this thought.

 

for NA freight its mainly about the mass. but the variety of paint schemes and cars is going down and most long lashups you see are getting very monotonous... also see less of the specialty freight cars these days. usually just containers, tank cars, box cars/refers, auto racks, hoppers, and a few plywood/lumber cars. ore/coal consists in places, but thats more localized. the only real interest paint schemes you see anymore are graffiti and that thats really depressing to see done to cars...

 

we dont have much in the way anymore of local, unique freight trains or the likes of an m250 or shiki 810!

 

i still love american freight, it just doesnt have the style or quite the uniqueness that the japanese counterparts do, just massivness. Locos as well. many have very unique little stories with them, where as few of the modern us freight do.

 

I dont take this to be a ding against US freight rail, its just a different beast with different needs. here its all about moving huge masses long distance. in japan its about smaller amounts, short distances and connecting unique things with freight on smaller scales with even some of the companies themselves running their own freight trains.

 

in my business ive learned that you may get a big reaction at first by being big/imposing, but it does not last and actually usually stuns/intimidates the viewer in the long run. thus why i love the japanese trains with the more subtleness to the freight and theres some depth/detail there past the mass that i dont see so much in US freight. thus why i have left doing US freight even though i love some of the brutes (dd40s, U50s, gas turbines) -- you can do a whole lot more with less and it all looks different!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

In my opinion, there's not much that can beat a Santa Fe warbonnet F3. I also quite like the SD40 and SD70, especially in the UP scheme.

 

Strangely enough, even though I've liked the F3's and F7's for a LONG time, I only have a single warbonnet F3 =)

[westfalen]

In my opinion, there's not much that can beat a Santa Fe warbonnet F3. I also quite like the SD40 and SD70, especially in the UP scheme.

 

Strangely enough, even though I've liked the F3's and F7's for a LONG time, I only have a single warbonnet F3 =)

There is, an ABBA set.

 

Luckily there is no shortage of warbonnet F units as Kato keep churning them out. I think old man Kato San has a soft spot for Santa Fe since the first US loco they ever did was a Santa Fe PA1.

[maxa1]

Hmmm.......what about the smaller manufacturers like World Kogei, Ginga Models, Sankei, Kings Hobby,etc ? As Bill mentioned,only about 20% of N gauge modelers seems to recreate a miniature world in N scale,with the majority concentrating on landscaping......and there are many well done layouts around. A very small percentage of modelers in the UK and Germany are promoting finescale,i.e. no pizza cutter wheels,no sharp 1st radius curves,slim turnouts,affordable brass kits,correct gauge,etc. This of course is not for everyone since it requires some skills and patience. I'm also wondering why Japanese makers have not followed the US sample with at least lowering the flange height of the wheels? The smaller manufacturers I mentioned earlier on, are trying to bring a more scale like appearance to N gauge. Well, there are many possibilities with N scale and everybody models according to availability of space,money and skills. After all, it's a relaxing hobby.

 

Regards

 

Max

[KenS]

i still love american freight, it just doesnt have the style or quite the uniqueness that the japanese counterparts do, just massivness.

 

You can find uniqueness on both if you look, but I think you may be discounting how the majority of freight in both countries tends to be rather bland compared to the past (in either country), when carload and less-than carload freight ruled.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Japanese freight today is mainly tanker trains and container-on-flatcar trains, with the occasional boxcar, gondola or other specialty car mixed in.  They may not have mile-long unit trains (and unit trains aren't necessarily boring; I've seen some interesting containers on a unit container train in the U.S., not to mention specialty unit trains like the Tropicana Juice train), but I'm not really seeing more variety in Youtube videos of current Japanese freight than I would trackside along a major U.S. line.

 

Yes, Japan does have the M250, which is probably the most interesting freight train I've ever heard of, and it's certainly got style. But as much as I like, say, an EF210, I can't really say it has more style than an AC44. I like them both. And if they're both pulling strings of petroleum tanks I'm missing the uniqueness.

 

Japan does have a number of different kinds of locomotives, while mainline U.S. power is tending to a sameness it didn't used to have (I have trouble telling GE and EMD apart these days, and that's just wrong). But you can still find local freights in many places, pulled by older and more varied power, that mix boxcars (fewer now, yes, but they're there), covered hoppers, and other kinds of non-unit freight. They're certainly a dying breed, but they aren't quite dead yet.

[CaptOblivious]

(I have trouble telling GE and EMD apart these days, and that's just wrong).

 

And I thought I was the only one! Whew!

[to2leo]

(I have trouble telling GE and EMD apart these days, and that's just wrong).

 

And I thought I was the only one! Whew!

 

They are both ugly so I had pre-ordered Red Katy and C&NW to my N. American Freight Collection to compliment my Japanese Express Collection and my European HSR Collection.

[Mudkip Orange]

@KenS: Completely with you on being unable to distinguish between EMD and GE (wtf?)

 

@cteno4: The thing about the freight you mentioned is they're specialty trains. The M250 is awesome, and you're right, we don't have anything like that here. But the vast majority of Japanese freight is container-on-flatcar. And while these things are obviously largely a matter of personal preference, I tend to find American doublestack container trains more aesthetic than Japanese container trains. The color schemes are more aesthetic (let's face it, dark brown on light blue is kinda pukey) and the appearance of containers "nestled" into articulated, gondola-style cars is IMO more attractive than the naked, box-sitting-on-a-platform look of the JRF stuff. But again, this is all personal taste.

 

And shortlines aside, at the end of the day I have a lot of respect for the "mass" element of both countries' railroading. NOTHING speaks brutal efficiency like the E231 "cattle cars", or the line they operate on, which singlehandedly carries as many riders as the entire London Underground, or the Shinkansen they connect to, which can carry 1300 people at 300km/h through high-speed, moveable-frog switches, every few minutes. Likewise, nothing speaks sheer industrial willpower like a 12,000 foot container train. Why do American freight railroads operate such long trains? Because they can, goddammit.

[cteno4]

yeah i think it boils down to different needs in the two countries leads to different solutions. also the design aesthetics are different in the two countries. I think japan tends to apply a lot of design just for the look in a lot of their products, especially the trains.

 

Even the E321 with their mass capacity have a gentleness to their lines and a good symmetry on the doors and cars to make it seem like a long millepede! i also find the simplicity of the usual japanese container trains sort of zen like. even the odd spacing of non full cars or ones with some 20' containers thrown in. double stacks are great, but its a totally different look and feel, massive.

 

In the US design is not usually applied much to functional things like trains, mainly focused on functionality and then just round off the corners maybe. the design field here in the us in product design has been really decimated in the last decade or two. most companies have let go the older designers and put (cheaper) young designers into the main positions. problem is many have little experience and are totally wed to cad for design from square one.

 

product design has also been hit hard from the other end with again the older, more experienced (and expensive) buyers being let go and replaced with very young buyers with little experience and literally no design experience. these are the folks that end up really directing a lot of product design as they are the one who decides what gets bought for the stores. the current trend is for them to look at a product a competitor has and they instruct the product designers to just copy it and change a few things. leading to a xerox of a xerox of a xerox effect in the design. this leads to things blurring out, lines getting bigger and detail lost. you can actually see this if you look at things like handles and faucets and fixtures over the last decade or two. lines are no longer very clean and well thought through and they have definitely gotten pudgier. this isnt a design trend as a good designer will tell you the lines are poorly done and proportions off even if you wanted to make things fatter for a style change.

 

Anyhow its just to say that IMHO i think the contemporary japanese trains (freight and especially passenger) have more interesting designs and detail than the current US trains do. I like them both, but for totally different reasons. US freight for the sheer mass, size, length. not really into much us passenger, few older ones have some interesting classic lines and are beauties, but not really my style much. most all japanese trains really do excite me, mainly for the attention to design they have and the variety of designs they have attempted.

 

my this conversation has gone from tomix vs kato to us vs japanese design!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[railzilla]

Just guess which vehicle is made for USA http://www.n-sharyo.co.jp/business/tetsudo_e/prod_commuter.htm

 

Slogan: You want a train, you can have it ugly too  

 

http://www.n-sharyo.co.jp/business/tetsudo_e/pages/znictd.htm

But i would buy this unit in N scale. Everybody would think it is a fantasy freelance

[marknewton]

... I should have mentioned that Tomix High Grade are comparable with anything Kato produces.

 

I can't comment on the comparison between Tomix and Kato products in N scale as I have no experience with either, but in HO scale I regard Tomix models as being on par with Kato. But having said that, all of the Japanese HO models I have are very high quality, in many ways far superior to models produced for other markets such as the US or Australia. When I take them down to the club on running nights there's a little bit of envy evident. 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Mudkip Orange]

In the US design is not usually applied much to functional things like trains, mainly focused on functionality and then just round off the corners maybe.

We did lose something when all the individually-built streamliners and interurbans of the 30s gave way to mass-produced F and E units. Of course, Fs and Es were beautiful locomotives... but in terms of unique aesthetics, that was the beginning the end.

 

Slogan: You want a train, you can have it ugly too  

In fairness a lot of that comes from the *much* more stringent crashworthiness/structural standards the US trains are subject to. Although if you ask me the NICTD single-levels are and were some pretty swank lookin' rides. The doubledecks, not so much...

[to2leo]

So I guess the only nice looking modern N. American loco is the Acela trainset?  And maybe the new Toronto Rocket subway comes second?

[CaptOblivious]

Nah, I think the P42 and some of its recent decendants are quite handsome too. But I think only Amtrak and regional transit have any interest in breaking from the look-alike mold...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Our latest offering from the US - thsi time GE - probably won't win too many beauty pagents! 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_70_(diesel)

[to2leo]

Why does GE have to build such odd looking machine?  Where are the N. American train design schools?