Kato \ Tomix track - Why?

[Lawrence]

Firstly, apologies if this is akin to blasphemy, but it is puzzling me.

 

I can easily understand why this kind of set track is used in many Japanese homes, my understanding is a lack of space(?), or for temporary desktop layouts, but I really cannot understand the fascination with the stuff.

 

There is greatly reduced flexibility in layout design because of its set track nature, it is very expensive, and (this is only my opinion) the raised ballast it sits on looks awful.

 

I don't wish to cause any offence to Keiman or Ken (these are just recent threads that I recall), they are in the process of producing a couple of fantastic layouts, but I cannot understand why they opted for this fixed track option thereby limiting some of the potential of their layouts.

 

Is it the whole "keeping it 100% Japanese thing?  perhaps a supply \ availability problem with Peco track (for example), I have to admit to being baffled.

 

As I said, it is not my intention to offend anyone, but I just wondered why folks use it, when they have large, permanent layouts.  Even Norman Raven (and I have oft admired his work) used it on his Katami Mittsu layout!

 

Enlighten me, please :confused2:

[keiman]

My Tomix Track was originally going to be for a tramway inside the rest of my Kato track which will be for running the full size trains.

The Table top layout that I have posted pictures of was never originally going to be permanent but as in my last post about my layout I now have a space for the small layout.

The Mainline Kato stuff will still have to be set up on the living room floor.

Keitown, will still be portable and has been designed to fit inside the loops of Kato Track.

I used to use Peco Flex when I modelled 009 but never really got on with it.  Plus I never was any good at laying loose ballast.Personal choice at the end of the day.

[bill937ca]

My Tomix track is much sturdier than the Atlas track available locally.  There is a much greater variety of pieces available and radius choices are far wider than any domestic track.  You can still cut either Tomix or Kato track if you wish to fit a particular track plan.

 

I originally started with track for a tram line too.  By the time I added trains I already had enough Tomix that turning back wasn't an option in my mind.

[Mudkip Orange]

I can give you a few reasons.

 

(i) Temporary layouts. Using Kato, I've had multiple different layout configurations in the last year. I've set them up on the floor, tables, upside-down-baskets, and the edge of my platform bed (with the mattress rotated sideways).

 

(ii) It's easier to salvage layouts. I built the first Mudkip Dentetsu with cork roadbed and Atlas track. When I moved back to Houston, the entire thing got left in my parents' basement - track and all. Likewise, when my parents moved to Philly in 2006, we *tried* to salvage the Atlas turnouts from my dad's HO layout, but at least 1/3rd of them were permanently destroyed. And the flextrack and the roadbed was a total write-off.

 

(iii) TIME. Snap together some track and you can be up and running trains in 10 minutes or less. With Flextrack it takes days or weeks just to get to that point.

 

(iv) Dynamism. Look at quinntopia's blog and see how much his layout has changed in the last two years. And he's still constrained by making permanent scenery; a Japanese-style representative layout (like the JRM display layout) can be changed around on a daily or weekly basis. But with sectional track and under-table switch machines, you're pretty much stuck building according to your original master plan.

[to2leo]

Hi Lawrence,

I cannot answer everyone's POV on it but here are mine.

 

1) Majority of people on the forum can only do temporary layout due to space issues.

2) Unitrack and Fine track rail joiners will always offer tight grip between tracks no matter how many times you use it.

3) The nickel silver tracks from both brand seems to repel dirt and grimes far better than the others...you never need to sand them, just wipe them with a paper towel.

4) The resale value of the track on eBay.

5) The near flawless turnouts and double crossover.

6) The variety of track types such as elevated, super-elevated on curves, double tracks and tram.

7) Unitrack is made in Japan which is still known for their quality and craftsmanship.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Martijn Meerts]

The pre-ballasted Tomix track actually looks quite good, even up close. It's easy enough to hide within surrounding scenery. Another plus point is the very tight mini turnouts, which are great for trams, and unless you want to hand lay turnouts, you're not getting anywhere near as tight a turnout radius from other brands. I also think the track (especially the single, non-elevated track) has a bit of a narrow gauge look to it compared to for example minitrix track.

 

That said, I won't be using Tomix track much for a static layout or modules, except for my Ghibli modules where I need the tight radius turnouts.

[bill937ca]

It didn't occur to me before, but Leo and Mukkip have mentioned a couple of factors in my choices.  The opportunity to have elevated track was too much to pass up.  I've created numerous layouts with Fine Track.  In fact every time a new order arrived the layout changed.  

 

I hear very little carping about Unitrack or Fine Track, but you can find forums full of carping over various other types of track.  It's simply "bullet-proof".

 

My current 2.5 x 10 foot train layout is entirely table top.  I've not had to drill through the table to set up power switches.  That means you can have a layout on benchwork, on a banquet table or even on a piece of furniture like a desk or dining room table. 

[David]

It's not just Japanese prototypes.

 

Kato USA wouldn't be able to import and sell all that Unitrack to North American modelers if there wasn't a demand for it from US/Canadian modelers in general. Go over to Trainboard/Atlas Forums/etc and search for the usual Unitrack thread - yes it has the giant ballast, and yes it has the wrong tie spacing for US tracks, but the word used over and over again to describe it is bullet proof.

 

Buy an Atlas turnout and you've just volunteered unknown hours to trying to tweak and fileand modify that turn out until it works correctly 80% of the time (buy a Bachmann turnout and you've just volunteered unknown minutes to carrying it to the garbage can). Same can be said with the track - flextrack introduces a lot of flexability, but at the cost of a lot of time to fix all the derailments resulting when you fail to keep it perfectly in gauge through a curve.

 

Some people just want to run trains, and especially with younger people trying to get into the hobby, they want train accessories that work as advertised instead of being a time sink themselves.

[KenS]

I can easily understand why this kind of set track is used in many Japanese homes, my understanding is a lack of space(?), or for temporary desktop layouts, but I really cannot understand the fascination with the stuff.

 

There is greatly reduced flexibility in layout design because of its set track nature, it is very expensive, and (this is only my opinion) the raised ballast it sits on looks awful.

 

I don't wish to cause any offence to Keiman or Ken (these are just recent threads that I recall), they are in the process of producing a couple of fantastic layouts, but I cannot understand why they opted for this fixed track option thereby limiting some of the potential of their layouts.

 

No offsense taken, it's a good question.

 

My reasons are similar to some of the others: time and flexibility of design/changes.  For that I trade off the true flexibility of design that comes from flex-track or better yet hand-laid track (I've done the former, extensively, in HO, but never hand-laid anything).

 

I started my n-scale train work (mainia? addiction?) with a simple table-top layout that was very temporary.  I wanted something quick-and-dirty to run my trains on (at first it was just a loop of double-track with two stations).  Kato had a good reputation for reliability, and my local hobby store had a good selection, so I went with that. It worked out well: very reliable over the 18 months I used it, and easily adapted as I changed my mind about track plans.

 

In designing the big layout I originally expected to use flex track. But by then I was already settled on using Kato's elevated station and bridges (both of which could be used with flex), so my first track plan sketches in RailModeler used Unitrack for simplicity.  And when I realized I could do what I wanted with it, I kept postponing the change to flex in favor of speed of design and construction. I also had a lot from the various incarnations of the first layout I could reuse.

 

There are many advantages to flex track: long-term electrical reliability and positional stability (although I could hot-glue the Unitrack in place for the latter), visual appeal, and cost being the big ones.  The ability to have any radius I want, and to have spiral easement trasitions into curves (which provide both visual and operational benefits, although all Japanese trains sets I'm familiar with work fine without easements) are things I was reluctant to give up, but ultimately did.

 

The downside to flex is that it's a lot of work to get it laid so that it's straight and level (and any compromises will really hurt in the long run), and once you do, any changes are pretty destructive.  If I were working in HO or On30, I'd use flex (or maybe even handlay track). But avoiding problems in N is something I see as requiring a lot of careful work.  And taking even more time than HO flex did (and that wasn't at all fast for me).

 

I may someday replace my Unitrack with flex track, once I get the scenery and electronics done.  I won't be able to add spiral easements without major scenery rework, but nothing I've done with Unitrack precludes usng flex for the same track plan, and I've planned for that eventuality by using cork or WS foam roadbed (which is a nice noise buffer even under Unitrack).  But it's low on my list of things to do for the layout.

 

For me, the bottom line came down to: I could do what I wanted to with it, it was going to be much faster than using flex track, and I already (from the temporary layout) had some.

 

So it's not "being Japanese" for me.  Nor availability.  If I were doing flex I'd probably use Micro Engineering as I used them for some of my HO work (I also used the Walthers/Shinohara stuff, which is Japanese).  In fact, I actually bought some ME flex track, and may ultimately use it on my storage tracks if I don't use it topside first.

[grumbeast]

Lots of what's said already..  I've used peco exclusively for the last 28 years, switched to unitrack about a year ago and have run more trains in the last year than I have in the previous 27.  I'm willing to put up with the limited geometry (and you can make the ballast look ok with a bit of work if you want) so that can actually play trains for a while (besides, I loath ballasting.. its always been the sticking point on my previous projects and why I haven't got them finished.  The cost is really not as prohibitive as I thought, especially the turnouts which have th emotors built in.. something I never managed to achieve with Peco.  Now,Peco do make fine track, I'm not dissing it, its just that I don't find I have time to do what I need to do to make it look good (enough) and behave reliably

 

  Graham

[westfalen]

Since seeing our T-TRAK modules using Unitrack there are a few members of my club now building or planning layouts who wouldn't be without the ease of use of Unitrack. A newcomer to the hobby is more likely to get a layout up and running quickly and without problems, and therefore stay in the hobby, with Unitrack than if you give him a bundle of Peco flex track and turnouts. You can have a fully operational layout in not much more time than it takes to get the track out of the package.

 

Painting Unitrack's shiny silver rails a rust colour and blending the track into the scenery is a big improvement in appearance.

[Krackel Hopper]

Adding to everyone else here..

 

Ballasting - Kato (and I think Tomix too) sell ballast that exactly matches the plastic roadbed.  I used this on my first T-trak module, and I think it looks great.  I think either track alone would look good with just a bit of weathering, but add a light sprinkle of matching ballast and it's flawless.

 

Turnouts -  Not only a wide selection of turnouts (Tomix offers curved, tight radius, 3-way, double-slips, etc) but these turnouts are oddly cheaper.  Aside from Kato and Tomix, Peco is one of the few whom offers a decent turnout selection.  A Peco double-crossover is close to $150 compared to the roughly $60 for Kato or Tomix.

 

Super-Elevated Curves & Viaduct - As far as I know, Kato and Tomix are the only ones offering either of these features in track.  Yes, you can super-elevate flex-track using shims but that is again a very tedious task that could take days to work out the kinks and get a smooth transition.

 

Construction Abilities -  Laying track is no easy task.  Making sure joints are smooth (no kinks) and secure usually requires welded seams.  Even something simple like a double mainline.  Kato/Tomix you just clip the pieces and they're already at the correct spacing.  Trying to lay flex track perfectly straight, then lay a second piece perfectly straight at the perfect spacing over the length of the run requires a lot more time/effort.  Wiring, cork or foam roadbed, ballasting (particularly around turnouts), all these things require lots of time.  Clipping Unitrak or Finetrack takes much less effort, and once the track and surrounding area has been flocked and scenery added it looks just fine with much less effort.

 

The end result - Yes - flextrack offers a much bigger variety in terms of what you can do.. but most people are happy with what they can create using the variety of Kato/Tomix track available to them.  Or at least the ease of use outweighs the time/energy required to lay flextrack.  Both Kato and Tomix make adapter pieces that would allow you to add flex track to a certain area if you wanted something really different that just would not be possible with their tracks.

[westfalen]

Adding to everyone else here..

 

Ballasting - Kato (and I think Tomix too) sell ballast that exactly matches the plastic roadbed.  I used this on my first T-trak module, and I think it looks great.  I think either track alone would look good with just a bit of weathering, but add a light sprinkle of matching ballast and it's flawless.

 

Turnouts -  Not only a wide selection of turnouts (Tomix offers curved, tight radius, 3-way, double-slips, etc) but these turnouts are oddly cheaper.  Aside from Kato and Tomix, Peco is one of the few whom offers a decent turnout selection.  A Peco double-crossover is close to $150 compared to the roughly $60 for Kato or Tomix.

 

Super-Elevated Curves & Viaduct - As far as I know, Kato and Tomix are the only ones offering either of these features in track.  Yes, you can super-elevate flex-track using shims but that is again a very tedious task that could take days to work out the kinks and get a smooth transition.

 

Construction Abilities -  Laying track is no easy task.  Making sure joints are smooth (no kinks) and secure usually requires welded seams.  Even something simple like a double mainline.  Kato/Tomix you just clip the pieces and they're already at the correct spacing.  Trying to lay flex track perfectly straight, then lay a second piece perfectly straight at the perfect spacing over the length of the run requires a lot more time/effort.  Wiring, cork or foam roadbed, ballasting (particularly around turnouts), all these things require lots of time.  Clipping Unitrak or Finetrack takes much less effort, and once the track and surrounding area has been flocked and scenery added it looks just fine with much less effort.

 

The end result - Yes - flextrack offers a much bigger variety in terms of what you can do.. but most people are happy with what they can create using the variety of Kato/Tomix track available to them.  Or at least the ease of use outweighs the time/energy required to lay flextrack.  Both Kato and Tomix make adapter pieces that would allow you to add flex track to a certain area if you wanted something really different that just would not be possible with their tracks.

I agree with you on the Kato ballast, it helps blend the track into the scenery.

 

Don't forget that $150 Peco double crossover doesn't include four, already installed and wired, switch motors.

[Martijn Meerts]

The disadvantage of the Tomix switch motors is that you can't really put too much scenery around them, in case you need to replace them.

 

I don't know how reliable the Tomix switch motors are in the long run, but I know that Minitrix and Fleischmann ones create quite a few problems. Apart from them just dying, there's also the fact that once in a while they don't throw the turnout completely, or throw it so hard, that the point rails bounce back from the rail.

 

I've had so many problems with Minitrix switch motors on my father's layout, that I'm going for servo's on any new layout/module I'm going to build. Using servo's with Tomix turnouts is much more of a problem with lining up compared to many other turnouts, because they're almost completely closed.

 

 

That doesn't mean I think Tomix track is bad, I actually have quite a lot of it, and love it. But there are things which can be tricky with the stuff ;)

[Mudkip Orange]

It didn't occur to me before, but Leo and Mukkip...

 

Who the frack is "Mukkip"?

[Mudkip Orange]

(buy a Bachmann turnout and you've just volunteered unknown minutes to carrying it to the garbage can)

 

Bolded for truthiness.

[CaptOblivious]

In fact, my "permanent" layout is anything but. Really, it more like an elaborate version of the kitchen-table layout. I set it out, and then lay my Tomix FineTrack on it to run trains. During the layout's off-season (which is about 8 months of the year), I can take the layout to the basement (in pieces!) and recover the FineTrack for use on my more mundane "Ikea Line".

 

I've also ballasted FineTrack to good effect, but it is a little twitchy to do. But in this way you get the "bullet proof" track in a permanent form.

 

But I will say my (now slightly outdated) Tomix turnouts can be a little flaky at times. There is one in particular that the motor doesn't seem to want to move the points all the way over sometimes, and that causes some real problems. But that track record (ha! a pun!) is still better than what I'm hearing about other makes.

[David]

But I will say my (now slightly outdated) Tomix turnouts can be a little flaky at times. There is one in particular that the motor doesn't seem to want to move the points all the way over sometimes, and that causes some real problems. But that track record (ha! a pun!) is still better than what I'm hearing about other makes.

 

Is it the magnet being weak or the switch being sticky? I found it interesting that unlike Unitrack the Finetrack turnouts have very easy to remove and replace magnet modules (you can buy a replacement seperately).

[CaptOblivious]

But I will say my (now slightly outdated) Tomix turnouts can be a little flaky at times. There is one in particular that the motor doesn't seem to want to move the points all the way over sometimes, and that causes some real problems. But that track record (ha! a pun!) is still better than what I'm hearing about other makes.

 

Is it the magnet being weak or the switch being sticky? I found it interesting that unlike Unitrack the Finetrack turnouts have very easy to remove and replace magnet modules (you can buy a replacement seperately).

 

About to go off-topic. Moderators, if this gets too long, would you split this off? I'm lazy.

 

I thought at first the switch was being sticky. I adjusted the screw that holds the points in place until it was tight, but the points moved freely. Too tight, and it won't switch at all; too loose, and they rattle under wheels and cause derailments. And that worked for a while. I haven't had a chance to look more closely and see if swapping motors would help. But it's clean and unfouled.

[bill937ca]

 

But I will say my (now slightly outdated) Tomix turnouts can be a little flaky at times. There is one in particular that the motor doesn't seem to want to move the points all the way over sometimes, and that causes some real problems. But that track record (ha! a pun!) is still better than what I'm hearing about other makes.

 

If the switch cord gets pulled the Tomix switch motor can slide slightly out of place.  All you have to do is manually push the motor back in under the track.  It's happened to me before. 

[disturbman]

You should try it Don, it's really a piece of cake.

 

Anyway, back on topic. I agree with what everybody else said here about uni/finetrack. The ease of use, the sturdiness and the reliability of those tracks really makes up to the slightly lower diversity compared to flextrack. Plus, I find Tomix's false ballast pretty convincing in shape, color and grain and, from what I've seen, you don't need to do a lot to complete the balasting if desired.

[Lawrence]

Well that got a fairly rapid response!

 

Can I pick up on a couple of points made in your replies, and as I haven't worked out how to do multiple quotes, bear with me 

 

Bill - you mentioned the variety of pieces available with unitrack, I would have to counter that with a piece of flexitrack, infinite variety there!

 

Mudkip - you mentioned salvaging track and that is a really good point, and a lot depends how you lay it in the first place, but it is possible to salvage in excess of 90% and boy don't I know it 

 

to2leo - proper super elevated track, not much argument there with the exception of scratch building it, but unless you are into the whole scenic side of things this perhaps is not an option, I had no problem getting smooth inclines on to an elevated section of track.  Peco do Nickel Silver track too.

 

Krakel - my God man where do you shop!  I have seen the Kato double X for £50 and the Peco one for £60, yes I know you don't get motors with that.

 

I can understand the arguments about ease of build, lack of space etc (I did say as much in my pre-amble) but outside of those arguments I still don't get it myself.  Someone mentioned not being able to get a length of flexi track dead straight, well having previously modelled US stuff and having looked at a great many photos, I am convinced that there is not a dead straight piece of track in the US, perhaps that is different in Japan, I believe it is called character.

 

Yes it takes a little longer to lay stuff like Peco (and I can understand folks frustrations in the sometimes quite high attention to detail required to get it right) but if time is taken to prepare your baseboards etc it is an excellent and affordable option for hobbyists.

 

I still require convincing on the whole unitrack thing, but I will, at least, keep an open mind.  Perhaps if I find a bag of money somewhere I will get myself a couple of bits 

[Krackel Hopper]

Krakel - my God man where do you shop!  I have seen the Kato double X for £50 and the Peco one for £60, yes I know you don't get motors with that.

 

A quick search on Google Shopping will pull a great number of online retailers selling Peco double-crossovers for $120-$150.  Prices may be significantly cheaper in the UK but for US buyers, Kato turnouts are MUCH cheaper.

 

Also in regards to Kato/Tomix track costing more.  If it's about $5 per 3' of flex track (vs $8 per 3' of Unitrack).. after buying roadbed (cork or foam) and ballast, I'd say the price is fairly comparable.  Cheaper turnouts that are already equipped with motors would then cancel out any additional cost savings.

[Bernard]

Great topic for discussion Lawrence!  

Okay I absolutely love flex track my whole except for the New Viaduct is flex. There is one aspect about flex track that has a disadvantage over Kato/Tomix track, you have to make a detailed track plan before you can use it. I'm taking about knowing before hand how much clearance you are going to need if a track passes over another track. Checking all the radius you are going to use plus you have to solder all the rail joins and the feeder wires and cut rails. At times I've had to solder together 3 pieces of flex, cut the rails to match and lay it down on the cork roadbed which is no easy task with a piece of track that long. There is also a lot of gluing down the roadbed and track and then drilling holes for the feeder wires. You can then add to that the humidity of the room the layout will be in. To allow for rail expansion, you have to at times put gaps in the rail joins when you solder.

With Kato/tomix, you can experiment with a track plan by putting it down on a table, you can't do that with flex.

The large layouts that use flex track (like Marti's and mine), there is no way we can have trains up and running in a day but the same type of layout using Kato/tomix, it is possible.

 

Here are the basic step in order to use Flex:

1) a set track plan

2) drawing the plan on the bench work.

3) Setting any track elevations over the track plan (if you're using WS risers & inclines)

4A) Positioning your turnouts around the layout first before you start 4B

4B) laying/gluing/cutting the cork roadbed over the drawn track plan & risers/inclines

5) Gluing/soldering/cutting to fit the track

6) Drilling holes for feeder wire and soldering the wires to the track

7) Installing buse wires under the bench work that the feeder wires get soldered to & power supply

8) and I think now you can run trains. (There are probably some steps I've missed)

***major advantages, you can design any radius or bends you want and because of longer rail lengths, very smooth running. (there are some more but these are the first to come to mind)

 

Kato/Tomix track

1) Snap it together and design your track as you go if you like (that includes turnouts)

2) Snap in the feeder wires from under the track slots to the controllers

3) Snap it into the power supply

4) now you're running trains

5) Break it apart before your "significant other" sees that you set up a layout on the handcrafted cherry wood dining room table.  

 

[Mudkip Orange]

I am convinced that there is not a dead straight piece of track in the US

 

What on earth are you talking about?

 

What about here or here or here or here or here?

 

You've clearly been spending *entirely* too much time on the East Coast, my friend.