KATO 787 Incline Track Challenges

[JJ1892]

Hello,

 

My new KATO N Gauge 787 Series Around The Kyushu 4-Car Set 10-1541 works great on level tracks, but once I run it on a track with standard incline (namely, based on a KATO kit directions) it heads to 80% of the height and then stalls, like it has no power. Other trains from both KATO and TOMIX run perfectly on the inclined track. 

 

Anyone else experienced this ? is there anything I can do ? (train wise not track wise)

 

Thank you,

 

JJ1892

[bill937ca]

Pictures???  What is your power pack.

[JJ1892]

I am using a standard KATO SX Blue power pack (Blue one). The power pack provides energy only to this track. I am using one extension cord from the feed to the power pack. But again, all other trains climb it with no problem.   

 

Here is the incline set:

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10982881

 

This is the train:

[Little-Kinder]

Basically this set allows you to build a 4% incline, which is a lot, the train has the lights on and the wheels don't move?

 

If that's the case i have the same issue with a TGV but with a lower grade, no idea what's wrong here as current is still flowing.

 

If the wheels slips and keep going then it might be an issue with the gradient.

 

they also sell another incline set which will allow you to get an easier gradient (like 2%)

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10982881

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/11042673

 

 

[cteno4]

Different trains run differently on inclines, no real rule of thumb, just have to try them. This is one of the gotchas dealing with inclines. 4% is the steep end of grades, but a 4 car train should do reasonably well on 4%. Is it stalling on the same throttle setting on level or if you turn the throttle up when on the incline as well.

 

Have you looked to see if your traction tires on the power car [many japanese trains use traction tires] is intact? If you dont see a traction tire feel each wheel on the power car to see if any have sort of a notch cut in the wheel face where the traction tires would go.

 

One thing could be its got one of its drive shafts stripped. This would mean you only have one truck actually working. For a 4 car train it may limp along ok on level but not make it up an incline on one truck powered. You can test this by applying power to the wheels and seeing if each truck spins, especially with a bit of resistance from your finger as even a stripped or broken drive shaft an sort of spin wheels with no resistance but not with any resistance.

 

You might also put your power feed in the middle of the incline so you are getting the most voltage where its most needed.

 

Is the train new or did you get it used? Does it make any noise like growling? 

 

Jeff

[JJ1892]

I'll try the kit with the lower inclination. I also made the checks Jess suggested but all seems right. It is a new train, so maybe this just has to do something with the specific model.

 

When I turned the model to inspect the wheel I did see there is a magnet over there which I guess the model a bit heavier. I don't know if this is for sake of weight or some kind of attraction to the rails. I guess I should leave it be.  

[cteno4]

Hmm magnet under the train? Can you load a picture of this? N trains dont use magnets like that for traction. Tscale does using steel magnetized wheels and steel track [nickel silver is not very ferrous for attracting magnets]. 

 

You can also just play with an incline by cutting up little blocks of corrugated cardboard and glueing them together into piers and play with different grades.

 

Are you at full throttle and it wont make it up the 4% incline?

 

jeff

[RS18U]

On 3/6/2025 at 3:47 PM, cteno4 said:

Hmm magnet under the train? Can you load a picture of this?

I have this same train.  There are no traction tires or ability to have them despite the parts list showing 4mm ones.  I do not thing the metal piece is magnetic.  I have had mine run on a grade that a SL could not manage with no issues but I don't know what % it was.

 

Given the parts list shows traction tires I wonder if this is an oversight from Kato?

 

Will

 

[cteno4]

Ok thats just the pice of metal under the motor, it’s not a magnet. I cant see from the picture if any of the wheels look like traction tire wheels, they usually have sort of a flat slot in them for the traction tire to rest in, you can usually feel a little lip at the outside edge of the wheel face. 

 

I think i have the train, I’ll need to go dig around and see. 

 

@JJ1892 just to clarify the train stalls on the incline even when you run the throttle up to full blast, right?

 

jeff

[Little-Kinder]

Same question as Jeff.

 

Do the wheels spin and nothing happens or the train just stops and the light are still on?

[RS18U]

@cteno4 there is definitely no traction tires, and the wheels on mine don't have the groves for them either.  But the parts list shows them.

[JJ1892]

Hello. Sorry for the latency as my model is in a different building and I did not have the chance to visit it yesterday.

 

RS18U thank you for the image. Mine looks excately the same and no traction wheels indeed.

 

I can go with the throtle with full power, but the wheels will just spin in place. All lights are on and there is strong voltage (its is not that big of a loop and the power is linked to the rails about 40CM from the slope).  

 

JJ1892

Edited Saturday at 01:32 PM by JJ1892

[Kamome]

8 hours ago, RS18U said:

Given the parts list shows traction tires I wonder if this is an oversight from Kato?

The model is based on the 6, 7 or 9 car 787 which motor unit has traction tyres so the assyparts list represents the parts for both the modern 4 car and 6/7 car sets.

 

This 4 car version is sometimes coupled to another 4 car set so Kato assumedly omitted traction tyres to avoid motors fighting each other. 

 

You could most likely change over bogie sets to those with traction tyres. 

Edited Saturday at 08:42 AM by Kamome

[cteno4]

My suspicion is you may have stripped [or even snapped] one of your drive shafts and you are mainly running on one truck powered. Try flipping the motor car over and applying power to the wheels and see if both trucks’ wheels spin, especially with a bit of resistance with fingers pressure on them. You can just strip a piece of 20g or so wire and shove it into the end of a Kato power plug to make contact with the pins in there and then just put the stripped other end against the wheels to make it run. Alternatively if you have a 9v battery around you can just put its terminals on the wheel flanges to make it run.

 

Also make sure to check both power trucks are well seated into the chassis. At times in shipping they can get knocked loose so they are not fully engaged into the chassis. Doubt this is it but something to just check they are all the way in, level, and freely moving.

 

Stripping or snapping drive shafts does go up in frequency running on grades. We had a club member that set up many wild layouts with lots of insane grades and even helixes at up to 5 or 6% and he ended up having quite a number of stripped and snapped drive shafts [way more than anyone else ive seen]. He also ran his trains hard as well. Also burned out a few engines.

 

Maybe it’s just too light to make it up without traction tires. If all wheels are working you could try adding some weight to the car by taping some weight to the top of the car to see if it makes it. Also just try running with 3, 2, or 1 car to see what happens. This sort of thing just requires some testing to try to narrow down whats not working right.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[RS18U]

@JJ1892 glad to help.  As I also have this same train I am following this discussion with interest.

 

@Kamome good suggestion about switching the power trucks, and as this is a fairly recent release hopefully the parts are available.

[Wolf]

12 hours ago, Kamome said:

This 4 car version is sometimes coupled to another 4 car set so Kato assumedly omitted traction tyres to avoid motors fighting each other. 

 

You could most likely change over bogie sets to those with traction tyres. 

 

Yes, the 4 car release explicitly states to be without traction tyres.

 

Also, as Kato released power car boogies without traction tyres explicit as an "upgrade" part for the other sets in case you want to run them coupled, pretty much fuels the assumption you could just get the traction tyred ones from the longer sets spare part list.

[RS18U]

20 minutes ago, Wolf said:

 

Yes, the 4 car release explicitly states to be without traction tyres.

 

Also, as Kato released power car boogies without traction tyres explicit as an "upgrade" part for the other sets in case you want to run them coupled, pretty much fuels the assumption you could just get the traction tyred ones from the longer sets spare part list.

Could you just get the right wheel/axle sets rather than an entire power truck/bogies?  Could be cheaper?

[cteno4]

I think Kato usually sells the whole bogie most of the time. Ive had that issue in the past where I have had to buy a pair of kato bogies to just fix one small bart on one bogie. I want to say it was like $10 when yen was higher so not horribly priced.

 

makes sense as trying to package and inventory all the misc parts in a bogie would be a nightmare for them. Plus many of the bogies i think may be shared among similar trains.

 

im still a bit suspicious one truck may not be working as our clubmember who did crazy grades never had a grade his trains couldnt take even some w/o traction tires and you would hear the wheels spinning but they would still make it up his grades and his minimum usually was around 4%. 

 

jeff

[Kamome]

 I didn’t state about just purchasing the traction tyres due to that some of the motor wheel sets have a recessed wheel for the traction tyres to fit flush. The other option would be to purchase replacement axles if the issue is purely down to grip, but then I would imagine the train would maintain to run and wheels slip rather than stalling as the thread is suggesting. 

 

I would investigate other possibilities first but parts would usually be available to add traction tyres, whether replacing bogies or just wheel sets for those who are confident to disassemble the bogie assembly.

[cteno4]

yes about every traction tire ive ever dealt with had a wheel with an indent in it to hold the traction tire in place. 

 

Jeff

[RS18U]

3 hours ago, cteno4 said:

yes about every traction tire ive ever dealt with had a wheel with an indent in it to hold the traction tire in place. 

 

Jeff

Same with me in both HO and N scale making it easy to see if they are missing.  Based on my experience with my 787 I would be looking to see if there was something else first.  @JJ1892 do the other cars roll nice and free?  No binding on them?  Mine will roll off my work table since it has a very slight slope they are so free wheeling.

[JJ1892]

I have been trying to run the train only with the power truck as well as with 2 or 4 wagons attached (front and back "heads"). Same behavior. The power just spin in place until I turn off the throttle. I will try to play with different inclines to see if this is just a sensitivity game or something more deep is involved with the train itself. Holding the power wagon with my hands and increasing the throttle does feel there is force and wheels on both ends spin in their place. 

 

@RS18U - as you said, the other wagons are free wheeling as one can. 

 

I do wonder if height separation (I have 2 levels - one for normal and semi express and one for express and Shinkansen and just tried to play and connect them for the complexity in driving the trains ) is not a best practice anyway, to prevent such problems from happening in the first place.

 

@cteno4 - you were suggesting to add weight. If the train was running I could understand why adding weight will give it more momentum as it gained power, but for climbing this incline, will additional weight won't make things harder for the train ? I was thinking maybe the problem is with the engine who could not generate enough torque for its weight as it is. 

 

In any case, I will be visiting the model today and take images of all wagons and upload here as I'm sure I am missing something.   

 

Also, is there information on the power of engines embedded in KATO's engines readily available for public view ? I mean, if the model has lots of inclines that would be an interesting reference point. I was thinking of attaching a flexible band  to the engine and make it run at full power and then so the same with other engines I have. Then try to measure the distance of elasticity the band has to get a relative measure of the engine power. Can I ruin the engine if I do this for 10 seconds ?  

Edited Sunday at 01:39 PM by JJ1892

[Little-Kinder]

More weight means more traction as the wheels will not slip.

 

Would be harder for the engine if the weight was on the cars/wagon

 

Try to put pennies on top and see if it helps

[JJ1892]

Here are images of the two wheels components. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[cteno4]

@JJ1892 Have you tried flipping the motor car over and powering it to make sure each truck is giving good power and neither is slipping if you put your finger on the wheels as it runs? Before concluding that this is design issue with that train you need to rule out all the potential issues that could be a problem with that particular motor car. It could have a cracked gear, stripped drive shaft, or punky motor that is just not giving this train the power that model would normally have. I have had a very small number of punky motor cars out of the hundreds i have bought over the years [fair number of second hand as well] and its been random and not train or manufacturer specific.

 

Also carefully inspect all the wheel sets of the other cars to make sure they roll freely and cleanly. Just try shoving each car to let it glide and see if one seems to stop fast, could indicate a rolling issue and that just puts more drag on the motor car to the point of slipping. Sometimes you dont see the resistance much just playing with the wheels but see it when the car is running on the tracks.

 

You are dealing with an odd ball here not the norm for either a particular model or a particular individual motor car itself. In these situations you have to just take a very systematic approach to it. First is something broken and not working right, if not then sometimes even just disassembling it all and reassembling it can make it start working again with something out of alignment and it gets fixed reassembling but you many times dont know what it was but its fixed! But before you do that you want to check everything else you can before tearing things apart. Im super comfortable tearing motor mechs apart but i never do it unless i think i really need to as you can also mess something up easily or loose a part, etc so i dont jump right to that.

 

As little kinder says adding weight to the motor car increases traction. The equation for friction force [force that gives you traction for the wheels to grip the rails] is:

 

F = mN  

 

where m is the coefficient of friction for the surface material and N is the force pushing the surfaces together, in this case gravity acting on the mass of the motor car. In this case adding a traction tires gives you a bigger m as rubber had a bigger coefficient fo friction than steel and adding weight to the motor car gives you a bigger N as gravity will increase N with more mass added. 

 

Have you cleaned the tracks with anything? I ask as some folks use lubricants like clipper oil and power steering fluid to clean tracks as it can clean track but causes other issues. Using these compounds can greatly reduce m, the coefficient of friction, in the equation above and you get slip and slide on inclines and with longer trains. Don’t laugh, a friends clubs a number of years back had experimented cleaning with clipper oil on tracks and thought it was wonderful but the tests were only done on level track. They then did the whole layout with lots of inclines just before an open house and practically nothing would go up the inclines! Then lots of experimenting with solvents to get the clipper oil off the tracks! Big mess.

 

No, manufactures dont measure the output of their motors or trains or report this info. If inclines are kept low like 2-3% most all trains do fine. But usually folks do find a train or two just does not like their inclines. Also inclines on a curve cause a bit more drag than on straight aways, but folks usually have most of their inclines on curves on small layouts due to space. You have a bunch of variables in how well a motor car will pull; motor power, drive train resistance, weight, and traction tires. These can vary a far amount in motor car design and even in identical models depending on assembly, dirt, lubrication, use, motor use, etc. Yes there will be a few that dont and that can be due to a number of factors, so always a bit hard to know. This is a tradeoff about using inclines in layouts, some trains will not like them as much and it requires you to play the throttle more to try to keep more even running. They will stress trains a little but as long as you are not doing super high inclines or racing the trains its minimal for most folks, maybe just requiring a bit more maintenance in the long term but again layouts are all about tradeoffs like this, there is no perfect solution.

 

When folks do measure pulling power for a particular motor cars/engine, they have rigged up a small fine hanging scale [these use to be common before the digital world to weigh letters] and attach one end ot a nail and the other end to the coupler of the train to see what force it can pull on the scale with different voltages/amperages. There is probably a small digital stress sensor like this that could be used but would take some work to set up the backside readings. It’s a bit crude and lots of variables to control for so something that is not super reproducible on one set up let alone different ones. This is basically what your elastic band idea is. Others use a string of standard cars like ore cars and measure how many cars an engine can pull. Again its just a rough estimate of pulling power. Running a train stationary will cause some stress to the motor until the wheels break free, but you have this at start up of trains all the time, but it will be more in the break free period as you are measuring at what point the frictional force is broken by the wheel rotation force and it starts slipping. Also once spinning free if you have traction tires on the train this will wear them down, it’s like smoking car tires, not as dramatic or damaging but it will wear on them.

 

Most japanese n scale model trains that have multiple cars tend to have 2 traction tires on the motor car. This greatly helps with traction but with the downside of you loose 2 or 8 wheels for power pickup, so the car may be a tad more likely to stutter on dirty track or around a lot of point work that can briefly cut out wheel contact with the powered rails. Again its tradeoffs. Some tomix shinkansen trains have the great feature of having powered couplers so you get power to the motor car from all wheels of the train, but this is only used on a handful of trains and only tomix.

 

jeff