The letter U in Japanese words

[Tony Galiani]

Just like the word Akita which I mispronounced for years, I am finding that I may be mispronouncing words with the letter U.  I recently rewatched My Friend Totoro and noted that the girl named Satsuki's name is pronounced Satski (silent U) in the film.  And then I was reading a note about Suica cards where the author noted that is pronounced as Sica.  And Paolo From Tokyo refers to Asakusa as Asaksa, also not pronouncing the U.

 

So, should I be dropping the U when I am seeing it in words?  I am currently reading Emily Itami's novel Fault Lines (set in Tokyu) and the protagonist is Mizuki - should I be reading Mizki?

Any insight appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Tony

[Kingmeow]

2 hours ago, Tony Galiani said:

And Paolo From Tokyo refers to Asakusa as Asaksa, also not pronouncing the U.

 

Took me two trips to Japan to figure this out.  🤣

 

Following to see what the answer is for the "U".  🙂

[UnfinishedKit]

Interesting one. I think is more of an accent and dialect thing, also context. It definitely seems common to diminish the vocalisation of the u is sibilant syllables (す、ず、つ、づ、 など), especially when talking quickly. It’s definitely vocalised in harder sound like む, can’t say I ever heard 無料　pronounced without the う and る　gets more of a う as well
 

Thinking through yesterday, we have a Japanese anu pair  and she was reading to our son yesterday. She’s from Kanazawa-ken and  recall her reading the line お鍋さんお鍋さん、何作る。definite う　in 「つくる」but the least in the つ。

 

I’m going to be listening like a hawk to this one. 

[UnfinishedKit]

just realizing that In Askusa the く　is before the sibilant. Needs more thinking about. 

[Tony Galiani]

Well I have no Kanji and only a few words of Japanese (and those thanks to NHK) but this is something I noticed and will continue to pay attention to.  Don't want to be causing confusion with mispronunciations.  Having a New York accent is bad enough!

Tony

[Kamome]

Not a language expert, nor is my Japanese as good as it should be. Just my silly observations. 

 

My experience is that it is more blending of the phonic rather than a silent “u” sound. This can often blended in the middle phonics to a word but can be stated in the beginning or end phonics. su, zu and tsu phonics seem to be used blended in the middle of words a lot. Perhaps because they are softer sounds that flow into the next phonic. There are obviously words that break this theory.  Perhaps due to frequency words or complex phonics together. Again, no linguistics expert here. 

 

Loan words can add to the pronunciation confusion too.

 

すきsuki - to like (often pronounced “ski”

スキsuki - to ski (always pronounced “ski”)

 

I also found that sometimes an “O” sound was omitted from some words and added to others in loan words. I once had a friend who told me they really wanted to visit, Toront in Canada and yet those with names that ended with t had an “O” added like Matto. 

 

“Matt-o san is from Toront.”

 

Having 2 kids who speak fluently, my gripe is with shortening and abbreviation. This has become more common in marketing products. 

 

pazu dora -Puzzles and Dragons app

poke poke - pokemon TCG pocket app

maikura - Minecraft

howasaba - Whiteout Survival app

misudo - Mister Donuts

 

My least favourite.

 

Oli para - Olympics and Paralympics

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:36 PM by Kamome

[Pashina12]

Soooo... do we want an answer from a linguist? 😄

 

It's a little bit complicated, but: *generally* - but not always, a 'u' is devoiced between voiceless consonants, but is pronounced voiced when there is at least one voiced consonant adjacent.

 

Also, it's not the same 'u' found in most European languages, rather it's the high back unrounded vowel: same as 'u' except without rounding the lips... acoustically somewhere around Russian ы and Turkish ı. Best advice on how to articulate it is to say an 'u', but relax your lips some. Also, the precise amount of rounding does seem to vary both regionally and person to person.

 

So, @Tony Galiani, Satsuki does indeed sound like 'satski' because of the devoicing, but Mizuki should be pronounced with the (lax) 'u' fully voiced, because of the voiced 'z' that precedes it.

[Tony Galiani]

Well I learned something new for sure.

@Pashina12 I am preparing a little cheat card for my next trip to help me remember the few phrases I have learned via NHK and will add this info.

Hopefully it will sink in and I will not confuse people too much.

 

Reminds me of the time I went to buy event tickets in Italy and asked for due biglietto, pronouncing the g which is actually supposed to be silent.  The ticket seller looked bemused but then kindly explained how to pronounce the word properly.

 

Ciao,

Tony

[Yugamu Tsuki]

Oh a very fun one to be sure, not really a language expert but I guess I have a degree in it due to dumb luck in college. There are many rules and exceptions but a lot of the time the u goes silent. This is how you can tell how along in studying the language a foreigner is.

 

u in Desu = usually pronounced as des. des+u usually sounds like you are dotting an "i" with a heart instead of a simple dot. Same as to like someone (ski vs suki). Youger females will be more prone to pronounce the u's here.

 

Rules also change, as UnfinishedKit mentioned, with different regions: i.e. kansai dialect will pronounced/not pronounce some where as tokyo dialect will be different still.

 

A lot of Japanese is also up to how the speaker wants to present themselves, like the various "I's" (watashi, watakushi [silent u too],ore, atashi, boku, kono ore sama) ame goes with pronouncing or not pronouncing the u's. 

[Kingmeow]

I'm so glad "Kato", "Tomix", "Greenmax" and "MicroAce" don't have a "u" in them.  Whew!  🤣

[200系]

42 minutes ago, Kingmeow said:

I'm so glad "Kato", "Tomix", "Greenmax" and "MicroAce" don't have a "u" in them.  Whew!  🤣

 

You sure about that? (トミックス (to-mi-'-ku-su), マイクロエース(ma-i-ku-ro-e-su) ,グリーンマクッス (gu-ri-'-n-ma-'-ku-su) 😉

Edited Wednesday at 03:07 PM by 200系

[UnfinishedKit]

Also Kato - Se-ki-Su-i Kin-Zo-Ku

 

[chadbag]

It probably also has to do with the formality of the speech.   Non-formal speaking probably tends to take more "shortcuts" and blend or drop stuff while formal speaking tends to pronounce more of the vowels in the syllables even if still de-emphasized?  That's kind of what I've observed when being there but I've not made a study of it.

[Pashina12]

14 hours ago, chadbag said:

It probably also has to do with the formality of the speech.   Non-formal speaking probably tends to take more "shortcuts" and blend or drop stuff while formal speaking tends to pronounce more of the vowels in the syllables even if still de-emphasized?  That's kind of what I've observed when being there but I've not made a study of it.

Yeah, that's also a factor - effectively similar to the use of contractions in English.