Layout ideas for busy city scape

[katoftw]

I'd have the layout 30cm away from the roller door.  The amount of dust and wind the gets around the edges it crazy.

[gibet_b]

I'm agree with Jeff.

I love the first one. IMHO, it's important to keep free space as much as you can. To move without the risk to hurt a part of your layout, or something on your bench, etc. 

[MrLinderman]

4 hours ago, katoftw said:

I'd have the layout 30cm away from the roller door.  The amount of dust and wind the gets around the edges it crazy.

 

After the insulation is in we will likely have a separator (thin wall) between the roller door and the edge of the layout to keep that dust from entry more to the "plane" side, should help keep it away from the layouts portion.

 

1 hour ago, gibet_b said:

I'm agree with Jeff.

I love the first one. IMHO, it's important to keep free space as much as you can. To move without the risk to hurt a part of your layout, or something on your bench, etc. 

 

Yer I'm leaning that way, one options is to make the "additional" work bench as a foldable, stored unit and only brough out when needed for plane works. (another Jeff recommendation)

 

Mocked up the current design on the layout with an additional piece on the left side, as the original design was 10cm too short I think this could allow me to design a nice left side, have the "rise" to upper level for the shinkansen loop around on the left side, and add some additional "local" line track in and out of a mountain style range.

 

Alternatively I may make the additional bench a permanent addition with under storage and forgo the left side (U shape) as trains are my 2nd hobby It might be the smarter move to not try and overdo it on my first real layout, this layout will be a good amount of work for me in its current state.

 

Edited March 25 by MrLinderman

[gibet_b]

9 minutes ago, MrLinderman said:

Alternatively I may make the additional bench a permanent addition with under storage and forgo the left side (U shape) as trains are my 2nd hobby It might be the smarter move to not try and overdo it on my first real layout.

 

I think you're right 😉

[cteno4]

The U layout is nice idea to give you some more room for the layout and scenes. You can put it all on wheels to wheel out so you can side up along the wall to get access to the back corners and area along wall. The most efficient use of layout space with curves is the wrap round donut layout as curves are part of the corners on the donut and straight sections can be thinner then with no 180s. But then you have to get into the hole and its only really nice looking at it from with in the hole.

 

Do you anticipate working on trains and planes at the same time? If more separate periods on each then the folding table can go into the open center area of the layout with the right sized table.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Also there are is a lot of space under layouts for storage of rollaway storage units!

 

jeff

[MrLinderman]

29 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

The U layout is nice idea to give you some more room for the layout and scenes. You can put it all on wheels to wheel out so you can side up along the wall to get access to the back corners and area along wall. The most efficient use of layout space with curves is the wrap round donut layout as curves are part of the corners on the donut and straight sections can be thinner then with no 180s. But then you have to get into the hole and its only really nice looking at it from with in the hole.

 

Do you anticipate working on trains and planes at the same time? If more separate periods on each then the folding table can go into the open center area of the layout with the right sized table.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Smart thinking Jeff, didn't think about that, I would not be working on both at the same time, If I reduced the top U portion to 90cm width I can fit a 1.8m bench into that space, this gives me a "moveable" table that if constructed properly can also be used for storage

 

 

I think next step is to mock it up, the 90cm top U may not be enough to get a 180 in there for the shinkansen, but it could be used as a local line addition. 

[cteno4]

Yeah 90cm isnt wide enough to utilize for shinkansen 180. Might knoodle on track plan a little bit to just get an idea of how you might expand there. Another yard on part? Or terminus industry like a refinery and/or container yard?

 

 If not can you trim the table down some? Reason for its current length set in stone? Or make a swing up end that you can extend the table when out in the middle? They sell nice hinge and folding support brackets for just this thing on workbenches. Can the table also swing down in front of the roll up?

 

Im getting rid of my big shop project table [like 4’x7’], its roll around but too big to really go many places in the shop. Im replacing it with a 5’x24” and a 6’x24” rollaround workbenches that have adjustable height on them. Ive realized its rare i need a bigger space i can just push them together and if i need a huge space and if i do i can always just use a sheet of ply on saw horses. Smaller easily movable benches are way more flexible. Having adjustable height also way makes it wayyy more useful.

 

I grew up on a ship and around boats a lot so my mind defaults what can be moved around or nested like that for use at different times when space gets tight.

 

Cheers,

 

jeff

[MrLinderman]

8 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Yeah 90cm isnt wide enough to utilize for shinkansen 180. Might knoodle on track plan a little bit to just get an idea of how you might expand there. Another yard on part? Or terminus industry like a refinery and/or container yard?

 

 If not can you trim the table down some? Reason for its current length set in stone? Or make a swing up end that you can extend the table when out in the middle? They sell nice hinge and folding support brackets for just this thing on workbenches. Can the table also swing down in front of the roll up?

 

Im getting rid of my big shop project table [like 4’x7’], its roll around but too big to really go many places in the shop. Im replacing it with a 5’x24” and a 6’x24” rollaround workbenches that have adjustable height on them. Ive realized its rare i need a bigger space i can just push them together and if i need a huge space and if i do i can always just use a sheet of ply on saw horses. Smaller easily movable benches are way more flexible. Having adjustable height also way makes it wayyy more useful.

 

I grew up on a ship and around boats a lot so my mind defaults what can be moved around or nested like that for use at different times when space gets tight.

 

Cheers,

 

jeff

 

Was basing it of some rather well priced rolling work benches that have built in storage at 1.8m, but may look at actually reducing that to some suitable 1.5m options, Building a layout or standard bench I'm fine with but for the rolling work benches with storage, I'd rather buy something pre-made.

 

But yer, no reason I can't have both sides a solid 1m width and have a 1.5 - 1.7m long rolling workbench

Edited March 26 by MrLinderman

[cteno4]

Gotcha. If you find a shorter one look at the fold down end addition. I have a bracket set to add to an old craftsman roll around tool drawer set to have a fold down outfeed table for my planer that the chest is a base for. 

 

Jeff

[MrLinderman]

Did a little work on adding the other side of the U shape to see how it could work.

 

• Extended the high speed line into that area
• Mocked up a "mountain" range or hill side to match the hidden areas
• Went for a nice "long" bridge scene between two mountain points both entry and exit at 50mm height

 

Unsure if I should also extend the local line into that area, add another stop, or another yard or something, or leave it open for scenery work?

 

Below is with a layer showing how it may look if i shaped the overall layout table to match the "flow" of the track

 

Edited March 26 by MrLinderman

[cteno4]

The empire expands! Fun. I see why your hobbies are banshied to the shed! Does give you a nice place for rural/wild scenery now. 

 

Rounding out center areas like this is nice as visually it’s not that hard inner corners that tend to catch the eye. Worth looking at doing some but I wouldn’t chop too much out of your central scenery area as the whole layout points you visually into the center there and its your main station scene. Doing a curved facia is a little bit of work, but im sure with all your plane work you are use to doing some wood bending. You can always use some layered plastic like 040 stryene to create your base and laminate a nice wood veneer onto the outside to make a very pretty continuous band around the front of the layout there. Would look awesome to have it a pretty finished wood strip all around the layout. That is beauty to the eye in this situation as the eye will just slide along a nice band of naturally finished wood  thru that center area.

 

But again i would not whack out too much scenery space if possible. Having some building and such in the front there will help make the train movement more fun as it disappears for a brief bit like in real life. The height of our usual viewing of layouts at usual layout heights tends to really limit how much visiual train obstruction we get [like being up in drone] as in real life we rarely are in situations [especially more urban] where you see the train unobstructed for long periods. So im a fan of bringing some of it back when possible even when at the drone’s eye view. Its something sort of innate as i see kinds down at our setups much closer to eye level and they get little smiles every time a train disappears behind a building and then reappears and i have to guess a bit of that reflex is still in adults as I enjoy it too when i get lower down and watch.

 

cheers

 

jef

[Junech]

As Jeff already mentioned I wouldn't cut away too much and the thing you could do with the additional space is to give the commuter rail line a circle as well, something like this:

 

 

The darker yellow is the area I would roughly cut. And you could slightly bend the layout outwards on the right side to give it a more flow too.

[MrLinderman]

Would like to keep the local lines as a point to point setup, as the highspeed lines are looped if I want to see commuter trains on a loop they can transit to those lines.

 

Going to be adding lots of sensors and working with EX-Rail to develop an automated local point to point program, part of the challenge I've set for myself.

 

I'll cut back a bit on the cut back 😛 I may even design the frame work so its offset from the edges by about 20cm so I can lay the track and then do the curve cuts "after" its all layed down.

[cteno4]

You probably dont have to parallel the tracks with the curves. I’d take a French curve to the whole line and just do something that feels nice and smooth and flowing to the eye [what French curves are made for and do so well at]. It’s going to be a visual line across the layout so worth getting it to feel just right visually. Will be much nicer that the usual straight line edge. 

 

Jeff

[gibet_b]

@cteno4 I didn't know what a "french curve" was ! 😄

[UnfinishedKit]

@gibet_bi am intrigued to learn that the are ‘pistolets’ in French. 

[gibet_b]

6 minutes ago, UnfinishedKit said:

@gibet_bi am intrigued to learn that the are ‘pistolets’ in French. 

It can be two things, in French 😉

[brill27mcb]

"The French have a word for it..."

 

Rich K.

[cteno4]

I guess Im showing my age. Something lost to Belize curve handles in the digital age that tend to come out looking like the same parabola curves everywhere.

 

So i wonder how pistolet get attached as a term for a French curve i wonder? I can sort of guess the other slang pistolet could be ascribed to… also Cajun crawfish which  do look like little pistols when you cook em.

 

I had a wonderful set of 3 metal and wood French curves that were absolutely beautiful. Friend of my dad gave them to him while cleaning out a garage. Sadly they got lost in the shuffle at my parents house years back. They were in their own nice wooden case. Nice thing is it was a wonderful edge that you could just cut along with an xacto blade. Now days, sadly, they only are decorative most of the time…

 

jeff

[gibet_b]

In fact, 3 things : most of the time "pistolet" means "a handgun". But in french it also can refer to the French curves (but few people know it) or this medical accessory😉

[cteno4]

Ahhh that did not come up in any slang searches! Ok but still a big mystified why it was applied to French curves! I guess some have a vague look of a pistol.

 

Jeff

[MrLinderman]

Settled on a close enough approximation to how I'll curve the edges of the layout, then worked out If i was to build this in separate sections how big they were:

This gives me 4 sections:

1825 x 750

1825 x 800

1450 x 825

1500 x 925

 

Next up is jumping on onshape and CADing out the structural design with locally sourced timber, will probably use 35*90 structural pine to make up a boxed frame structure and top it with 7 or 9mm Ply sheeting, then add on around 30-50mm of XPS on top for the initial layer, depends on what is available at a good price at the time.

 

I'm tall at 6ft 4 so I want this to sit about 1m high for its base layer overall, this should make for a nice view even when standing while not be so high I can't work on it.

 

Will make each "section" so its an easy bolt to its adjacent section, doing this so in the "hopefully" unlikely event we need to move or dismantle the layout it will only require disconnection of pieces over the section joins (yes scenery might get a little damaged) and then each section can be removed. 

 

Overhangs more than 50mm I will add some bracing below it, like shelving supports or similar.

 

Edited Monday at 11:15 AM by MrLinderman

[cteno4]

Looks good, nice feel. What does it look like alone? Other background bits kind of grab the eye there to follow the curve well.

 

Those little overhand bits i think you could jsut use 18mm ply cut to your curve and make an L on the module side to bolt it to the module and a few little block braces to support the L. Cut two identical pieces of your curves chunks and then cut out the center of the bottom one to create a like 20mm frame and then you have a good top and bottom edge to wrap your facia board to. Looks like if you ever had to move it you would not do a lot of damage to much to pull it apart. The corollary to the Murphy;s layout law is if you think things thru like this and do some little bits to plan for it you will never have to move the layout!

 

Yep im the same height and does help raising the height. Mock it up on the bench and test your reach though working for a little while with your arms out at the max depth you need to go at 1m bench height. Working like that is not the norm in most other things in life so it can be a big oh crap this is hard! Of course you could put the whole layout on those fancy new desk lifts and have the whole thing go up and down! 😜 But kidding aside i have been looking at those lifts as they are so cheap now as something that could be used on a layout as it would be nice to have it at different levels for different things!

 

the 90x35 is beefie and you could get away with more like 90x18 or even 75x18 for these sized modules. With some internal structural cross pieces using box joints 18mm stock will be plenty sturdy especially topped with 7mm ply. Then just bolt the modules together. Legs can be 90x35 bolted in the corners and wheels under them. Also look at premade legs with wheels like ikea ones then can sometimes be very inexpensive and look nice and easier to mount [just ad a cross pieces of like 90x18 horizontal on the ends of modules to attach the leg plates to.

 

If you have access to a table saw or are good at ripping with a circular saw you might look at just ripping up decent finished cabinetry 18mm ply into strips instead of dimensional lumber. I dont know if it’s the same down under but our dimensional lumber has gotten horridly expensive and poor quality to find non warped or knotted pieces. Cabinetry ply usually comes in decent shape for ply and in a frame work like this is super sturdy and easy to work with using countersunk screws. The veneer is now paper thin on ours these days, but no worries as you will be veneering anyway probably with your curvy front. Veneer is a great way to go as easy to apply later once messy stuff is done to finish you edges. But I went to using plywoods for module framing and many other things i use to use dimensional lumber for framing a decade or so back and never looked back! I have a planer so i can run the strips thru the planer and get them really nice and smooth on each side and its cleaner than most all dimensional lumber and warps way less and is now way way cheaper than dimensional lumber.

 

here is a layout similar to yours I made for one of our club members. The framework is 16mm Baltic birch ply stripped to 50mm strips. Topped with 5mm luan. Wrapped it in 50mm cherry veneer strips. It sits on a frame made of 18mm cabinetry ply that 6 IKEA screw on legs attach to. Very light modules and sturdy. he can bolt it all together in a number of shapes until he decides how he wants for the final layout a U or L or long straight. He wanted it light and versatile so i did it at what i thought minimal would be for decent strength and i was surprised it was way sturdier than i thought! Using cross lap joints on internal cross pieces really adds a ton to strenght and stiffness. I realized we tend to way over build layout framework like we are going to stand on it! They are a bit of a pain todo without a table saw but not impossible and not that much work in the scheme of things. Alternatively just moving cross pieces an inch or so back and forth to screw in from both ends works very well as well and is fast and easy. 

 

https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/12208-what-did-you-do-on-your-layout-today-n-scale/?do=findComment&comment=156289

https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/12208-what-did-you-do-on-your-layout-today-n-scale/?do=findComment&comment=156308

[sorry i wish i had documented this build more but we whipped this all out in a couple of evenings and wasnt thinking of taking more pictures in process]

 

cheers

 

jeff

[MrLinderman]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

Looks good, nice feel. What does it look like alone? Other background bits kind of grab the eye there to follow the curve well.

 

Those little overhand bits i think you could jsut use 18mm ply cut to your curve and make an L on the module side to bolt it to the module and a few little block braces to support the L. Cut two identical pieces of your curves chunks and then cut out the center of the bottom one to create a like 20mm frame and then you have a good top and bottom edge to wrap your facia board to. Looks like if you ever had to move it you would not do a lot of damage to much to pull it apart. The corollary to the Murphy;s layout law is if you think things thru like this and do some little bits to plan for it you will never have to move the layout!

 

Yep im the same height and does help raising the height. Mock it up on the bench and test your reach though working for a little while with your arms out at the max depth you need to go at 1m bench height. Working like that is not the norm in most other things in life so it can be a big oh crap this is hard! Of course you could put the whole layout on those fancy new desk lifts and have the whole thing go up and down! 😜 But kidding aside i have been looking at those lifts as they are so cheap now as something that could be used on a layout as it would be nice to have it at different levels for different things!

 

the 90x35 is beefie and you could get away with more like 90x18 or even 75x18 for these sized modules. With some internal structural cross pieces using box joints 18mm stock will be plenty sturdy especially topped with 7mm ply. Then just bolt the modules together. Legs can be 90x35 bolted in the corners and wheels under them. Also look at premade legs with wheels like ikea ones then can sometimes be very inexpensive and look nice and easier to mount [just ad a cross pieces of like 90x18 horizontal on the ends of modules to attach the leg plates to.

 

If you have access to a table saw or are good at ripping with a circular saw you might look at just ripping up decent finished cabinetry 18mm ply into strips instead of dimensional lumber. I dont know if it’s the same down under but our dimensional lumber has gotten horridly expensive and poor quality to find non warped or knotted pieces. Cabinetry ply usually comes in decent shape for ply and in a frame work like this is super sturdy and easy to work with using countersunk screws. The veneer is now paper thin on ours these days, but no worries as you will be veneering anyway probably with your curvy front. Veneer is a great way to go as easy to apply later once messy stuff is done to finish you edges. But I went to using plywoods for module framing and many other things i use to use dimensional lumber for framing a decade or so back and never looked back! I have a planer so i can run the strips thru the planer and get them really nice and smooth on each side and its cleaner than most all dimensional lumber and warps way less and is now way way cheaper than dimensional lumber.

 

here is a layout similar to yours I made for one of our club members. The framework is 16mm Baltic birch ply stripped to 50mm strips. Topped with 5mm luan. Wrapped it in 50mm cherry veneer strips. It sits on a frame made of 18mm cabinetry ply that 6 IKEA screw on legs attach to. Very light modules and sturdy. he can bolt it all together in a number of shapes until he decides how he wants for the final layout a U or L or long straight. He wanted it light and versatile so i did it at what i thought minimal would be for decent strength and i was surprised it was way sturdier than i thought! Using cross lap joints on internal cross pieces really adds a ton to strenght and stiffness. I realized we tend to way over build layout framework like we are going to stand on it! They are a bit of a pain todo without a table saw but not impossible and not that much work in the scheme of things. Alternatively just moving cross pieces an inch or so back and forth to screw in from both ends works very well as well and is fast and easy. 

 

https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/12208-what-did-you-do-on-your-layout-today-n-scale/?do=findComment&comment=156289

https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/12208-what-did-you-do-on-your-layout-today-n-scale/?do=findComment&comment=156308

[sorry i wish i had documented this build more but we whipped this all out in a couple of evenings and wasnt thinking of taking more pictures in process]

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Thanks Jeff,

 

your bench work is very similar to my plan also, timber, especially framework timber is rather well priced here in AU, like everywhere it went up from Covid but we are bouncing back nicely now, did have another look at can get some 70x35 pretty easily, but thinner stock is not as easy to come by as standard. converted to US our 70x35 merch grade pine is about US$1.8 per LM so all up around I'm calculating approx. 28LM of framing (3 cross braces for the larger units, 2 for the smaller), that's about US$50 for the framing all up.

 

That goes up to about $75 if I end up with with structural grade pine at 70x35, which usually is allot cleaner, and more uniform than merch grade so might be worth the extra 25 bucks in the end.

 

I moved on my table saw a while back as it wasn't being used anywhere near enough to warrant having it, but I do have a good mitre that I will use for this project.

 

Sheeting I have a decent circular saw and some "straights" made from aluminium channel that I can clamp down to cut the sheets to size. alternatively our local Bunnings (hardware store) cuts for a $1 per cut and has massive panel cutting saws, which I might do with some margin of error and use the circular If I need to trim it back once attached.

 

Will likely use my pocket hole jig for attaching the cross braces and outer frame, and use some 35 square stock like you have for mounting points of the top.