Creating an Incline using Kato Super Elevated Curves

[Dashworth87]

Evening Gents.

 

The rough layout I have currently have built in my hobby room is slowly becoming more permanent. This week I will be going to my local insulation merchant to stockpile foam. The outer double runs the length and width of the room which is 8'x10' in a large U shape sadly I still needed some room to stand and be able to watch my trains go round 😄 

The station area of the build is in the middle of the layout and sits at the back of the board. The station area will be 50mm higher than the rest of the build so it becomes a focus point and there is a sufficiently interesting height difference. This has lead me to begin exploring inclines.

 

to make it easier to explain, I will call the outer track entering/exiting the station area A and B. The inner track I will call C and D.  

 

The inner double currently begins its life running parallel with the existing station. On side C, I plan to use a helix to combat the height difference bringing the track from 50mm to 0 relatively easily. This will be hidden within scenery when I begin landscaping.

Side D has been managed with the Kato Double viaduct to gradually reduce the incline and bring the level back to the base board. this has been built solely using Kato products and runs very well. The viaduct will be in the open, hence using the Kato Viaduct sets.

 

This leave me with Side A and B in which I need to get from 50mm high, back to 0.

On either side of the station, I am using a combination of the the standard double track super elevated curves and the larger outer radius super elevated curves. 

 

I have been advised that the standard Kato Incline with their sets is 4%. I would like to know if this is correct as I have no issue running large Shinkansen trains on the current viaduct section as it currently stands. 

My plan is currently to run a 3.5% incline on sides A and B which I am hoping will be suitable for the super elevated curves. it means that the incline, according to my math, will need to be 1.4 meters of track length to bring the track from 0 - 50mm.

 

Has anyone attempted or built anything similar before? 

 

My concerns are:

 

- If have been misinformed about the Standard Kato track incline of 4%

- No idea if an incline will be made easier or harder for the locos using super elevated track

- will a DIY 3.5% incline be appropriate

- is my math right with a 1.4 meter run of track to bring it from base level to 50mm.

 

Thanks in advance for any help you are able to provide.

[cteno4]

Can you do just a rough sketch of this, it would really help understand and make clear the plan for more specific advice.

 

I’m pretty sure the basic Kato incline set is at 4% but it was designed for smaller trains. There is also a gradual incline set that you can add to then stretch a regular set out to 2%.

 

The larger the train the harder inclines become as you may end up having some of the train on a curve that can cause more drag than running straight. The steeper the incline also the more dramatic change in speed going up and down the inclines and the more you may you need to play with the throttle to not let it get too crazy.
 

Trains also vary in how well they handle inclines with different motors, rolling resistance, coupler tensions, traction tires, weight, etc, so it’s best to test your ideas out with your trains. Sounds like you have some track so try these inclines out by propping up the tracks with piles of small squares of cardboard. Doesn’t have to be absolutely perfect and you can eyeball it pretty close. Or measure the run out and calculate the height you need at each track junction and cut a little block of wood to go under each track joint.

 

your calculation is correct 

 

height at any joint = run to joint from level x incline % / 100

 

its really important to play with inclines as some find they just hate them as well as see how well your trains will do on the inclines you want. 
 

usually folks draw the line at around 3% for a layout but usually like it to be closer to 2% to not be too much speed up and slow down. Personally I would not try to run a 16 car shinkansen up even a 3% grade, but that’s my combination of likes, experience, etc. we had a club member that had a 4’x14’ layout where she did many temporary Unitrak setups and loved doing inclined layouts and had grades up 5+% on it. I made him a ton of wood blocks shaped like single track piers at 2mm increments so he could set up what ever grades he chose. While some smaller trains ran ok on them many 8, 10, and 12 car trains (he didn’t have a 16 car shinkansen) did not like the inclines and many had derailments and uncoupling at the top and bottoms of the inclines where the slope went from incline to level at a track joint. This was helped when I make him straight track sections bent vertically to create vertical track easements at the tops and bottoms of the grades. He also burned a couple of motors out as he ran his trains fast and the strain on the steep inclines I think just pushed them too far when running fast. He (well me, he did not like to do mechanical stuff) had to replace a number of blow traction tires over a few years. I think in all my decades of model trains I’ve blown maybe 2 and I think those were just very old and dry.

 

I would definitely experiment with grades and your equipment before you decide on what grades you want to use.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Kamome]

My experience of temporary setups using Kato viaduct track and inclines.

 

The standard Kato riser piers increase in increments of 10mm so when used with a 248mm section of track, this gives you a 4% incline. If you use at 124mm intervals you get an 8% incline. 

 

You can purchase the additional Kato piers which have the same intervals of spacing although they are set heights between the regular piers (0.5mm, 1.5mm 2.5mm etc..)

 

Using both pier sets at each 248mm track section would give you a 2% incline. You would of course need a 2.5 metre length of track for this incline. 

 

If using the viaduct elevated corners, things get a little more challenging as the approach curves are 22.5 degrees and the main curves 45 degrees. This means it’s more difficult to keep a consistent incline as piers are set heights and track has fixed connection points. All Kato viaduct tracks do have a centre pier mount as well as the ones at each end. Some temp set ups and testing could help. Double motors may also significantly help but running double header may lead to some derailments if approach to incline isn’t properly considered(E2+E3/E5+E6 etc..)

 

The other factor is the speed lost as the train corners so the lowest gradient you can manage will help here. 

 

If using just the standard Kato 248mm straights and 4% incline i have found that the shinkansen will make it up and down but the coaches can ground slightly at the top of the incline. The main culprits in my experience were the 0系 and the E5. Maybe all did slightly but these were the most noticeable.

 

 

 

[Dashworth87]

The longest train I currently have is the E5 Shinkansen. 
initially when I made a mock up of the viaduct section the Shinkansen would reach the top section and detach the motor car from the rest of the train as it reached the final section.

 

i have resolved this issue and have found using the Shinkansen seems to be a good benchmark of what can and can’t make the hill/incline due to how sensitive it is to the smallest changes anywhere in the layout. 

I believe I may have the older viaduct set without super elevated curves, however the track still has arrows underneath denoting which way it requires connecting so I may be wrong. I will need to check. 
 

in all honesty, the inner double track loop is likely to be limited to 5 car express trains and metro type locos which may run at a maximum of 7 coaches so will test and test again until I come to securing the track to the board. The last thing I want to happen if for part of the layout to be unusable when it is secured to the board. 

[Dashworth87]

This is one of the inner doubles that I am trying to make work due to my childish track plan. 
 

my chonky finger is pointing at the curve that I want to creat an incline up to the viaduct level. 
 

as you can see, from the photo, I have used a mix of single and double track viaduct support parts as I thought it looked quite cool.
 

if I need more room to achieve the incline, I may decide to extend the viaduct from the girder bridge and attach it to the wall for support so it sits directly above the outer radius which would give me a larger radius to then bring it down and under the girder bridge. 

[cteno4]

Dash,

 

Yes that is tight. it’s looking like 3.5-4% grade on a curve. Mocking it up and playing with it is the best solution. I doubt extending that short viaduct will get you much additional run and run into geometry issues to connect it to the double plate sets that have little flexibility in geometry. You can put a piece of double plate straight in the middle of two super elevated curve pieces, you have to use the easement down to flat in back and many trains hate that up down up bump.
 

It’s going to be difficult to even spread out the double incline set over that loop evenly on track junctions. I would suggest you just use some dimensional lumber (like 15mm x 75mm or width of double track plate) and cut your own piers at the height needed at each track junction. You can easily measure this out with a piece of string laid down the center of the plates and draw a mark at each track joint. Then you can measure the run to each track joint and calculate the rise needed at that track joint to cut. You can glue to piers to the table or sink a screw thru the top of the pier into the baseboard (inset the head with a larger hole for the head to countersink it) and then put small pan head screws thru the top of the plate track into the pier tops. The track not being viaduct you would have the area under the track covered anyway. For any exposed piers plain rectangular color with curved or 45 cut edge is used on some viaduct piers just paint concrete grey.

 

Alternatively you can just use some removable glue (like e6000) to tack wood piers to track and baseboard.

 

Sound like you have mocked up the incline before and run trains on it. That’s most important to see what works and if you are happy how the trains run. Uncoupling usually happens with too much of a vertical change in the track and usually at the beginning and end of the incline. With firm wood piers you might be able to use some screws and a few extra piers to vertically curve the plate track some so it all does not happen at your rack joints as that leads to an abrupt incline change that the trains really don’t like. Those with very positive couplers can lift trucks for derailments as well. Each coupler system behaves a big different so why I mentioned try all your stock on it to see how well it runs and speed changes they will have.

 

Its not a childish plan at all! I’ve seen it used a lot. It’s hard when you try to pack a lot of track plan in a small space. Track planning is always about tradeoffs. It can take a lot of fiddling to try to get something like this to work out, so just keep fiddling and experimenting!

 

jeff

[Dashworth87]

Thanks for the advice Jeff.

 

i actually intend to build the incline using extruded foam so the entirety of the track is supported, not just the joins.

 

i tried a mock up of the incline using sticks of foam and found that it’s nowhere near as strong as the viaduct sections and the tiniest amount of weight seems to want to make the track flex.

 

my plan is to use a hot wire cutter with metal guides clamped to the side of the foam sheet, then make it in 2 or 3 different sections. 
I’ll cut it on both sides, with slight larger holes on the side it turns into and bend it to shape.

 

Kind of like a home made woodland scenics incline set. 

[cteno4]

Dash,

 

Sounds good. You could probably just use a hand saw along a clamped wood guide to cut the foam pieces pretty easily. if you clamp a pice of wood on either side of the foam you will get a very square cut.
 

Hot wire cutters work well but in some situations they are a bit trickier. It takes some fiddling. 
 

You may want to just chop the wedge into pieces rather than try to cut the zig zag. Extruded foam even cut with the zig zag isn’t very flexible and will just want to kink at points. Could just cut out like 4” sections and remove like 1” between sections. Experiment some!
 

The plate track is a bit flexy and best to have support mid track pieces. They are not meant to be elevated really I think.

 

The string trick is an easy way to get your total run length easily.

 

Do think about your top and bottom transitions in and out of the incline. At 4% these can really kink at a track joint and cause issues. Might be the place to transition to some wood supports do you could flex the plate track vertically some to create smoother vertical easements.

 

Keep us posted always great to see how people do things and their results. There is not one right way to do these things and the results! We all learn some then.

 

cheers,

 

jeff