A small 2 x 4 layout to get my feet wet.

[ehtcom]

My eventual layout (Akihabara station) I plan to build is realistically going to be a 5 to 10 year project.

To keep my motivation and interest, and also gain layout building experience I have decided to build a small layout around 600mm X 1200mm (2’ x 4’). 

Searching the internet and youtube for Ideas I have taken inspiration from Steve’s Trains 2 x 4 foot layout. See link below for youtube build.

 

 

My goals for my layout are to run as many trains as possible. Use autonomous running (I have a Tomix 5574 control unit and sensors). Teach me the basics of layout building, planning, scenery, and modelling structures. Wiring wont be an issue as I’m comfortable with electronics.

 

I’d like to be able to complete the layout within 6 months. I do have most of the track needed, and have just placed an order with Banzai Hobby for the small radius curves. I’ll place another order for the 3 way switch if I end up going with my below layout plan.

 

I have a fair bit of space to work in and a small layout like this can easily be stored in my workshop and moved onto my work table to run.

 

The layout itself will be based on a fictional town called “Autumn Leaf” that lays somewhere between Tokyo and Kyoto, most likely in the Shiga prefecture. The lower deck has the Tokaido shinkansen line passing by the local station on the upper deck. I’m not fixed on an era, but would like to model late 1960’s to early 1970’s. This way I can run series 0 shinkansen on the lower deck and maybe some 485 series express trains. The upper deck will have two stations? And some small local industries for freight service. I’ll have to test what I can run on the 177mm radius curves. I’m hoping the Tomix ED61 will manage as I have two already.
 

Below are my plans so far. Nothing is set in stone as yet. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks Earle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beaver]

Are you sure the shinkansen will fit in their assigned hidden sidings? In your chosen period you are admittedly not having to deal with 16 car trains but all the same unless you are happy with condensed formations there might not be enough space.

 

Are you sure about not having any hidden sidings on the upper level? Since you seem to want to have freight operations, hidden sidings are valuable as a 'universal industry' that can be a source and a destination for any kind of freight car. Only moving cars between modelled industries really limits the scope unless the layout is very big - in this case there seems only the potential to shuttle between source industry A at one station and destination industry B at the other station.

[bill937ca]

No way you can turn a Shinkansen on a 2 foot wide or less  bench.  You need closer to 36 to 42 inches. minimum 315 radius or maybe 354mm. I think you can do 354 on 30 inches wide, but it will be very close to the edge. Don't want your Shinkansen to drop to the floor!

Edited August 19 by bill937ca

[cteno4]

Fun little layout! Good to have something to play with to keep your interest up and hone your goals for the bigger layout as well as learn and practice scenery techniques.
 

@ehtcom as bill notes shinkansens are going to be pretty tight on those curves so I would check them out before getting too deep if you really must have them. They sometimes run ok on 282mm but can be cranky and look awful on the curves. Definitely good to have some track and try out the trains you want to use on the various radiuses and see if they work and it works for you.
 

Make sure to have a lot of access to those hidden tracks. Everyone I have known with extensive hidden tracks has lamented to me at some point they didn’t give enough easy access to theirs’! Spy cams are great to watch as you use the hidden tracks, but another feature to engineer into your design and build.

 

What you have designed is excellent for one and two car trains and maybe up to 4, but not for more. Not clear if your longest spur on the bottom loop could hold 4 x 20m cars. To get 4 or more comfortably you would need to move up to something like a 3’x6’ layout.

 

There is a wonderful book on small layouts, but sadly out of print currently so can be a bit expensive to buy. But wonderful ideas for small layouts like this. Best track/layout planning book I’ve ever seen. 
 

 

jeff

[ehtcom]

Hi Beaver. Thank you for your input and suggestions.

4 hours ago, Beaver said:

Are you sure the shinkansen will fit in their assigned hidden sidings?

No I'm not sure. I'll mock up a layout in the new few days and run some tests. I currently have a few morden shinkansen I can use for testing.

4 hours ago, Beaver said:

In your chosen period you are admittedly not having to deal with 16 car trains but all the same unless you are happy with condensed formations there might not be enough space.

As it's a very compact layout, I'll be running very compact shinkansen 🙂 I'd like to run 4 car trains but will run 3 car trains if I have to. 

 

[ehtcom]

4 hours ago, Beaver said:

Are you sure about not having any hidden sidings on the upper level? Since you seem to want to have freight operations, hidden sidings are valuable as a 'universal industry' that can be a source and a destination for any kind of freight car. Only moving cars between modelled industries really limits the scope unless the layout is very big - in this case there seems only the potential to shuttle between source industry A at one station and destination industry B at the other station.

This is a great idea and something I hadn't considered being a beginner. I should be able to move things around a bit and have a line running into the tunnel off to another location. 

[ehtcom]

Hi Bill. Thank you for your input.

4 hours ago, bill937ca said:

No way you can turn a Shinkansen on a 2 foot wide or less  bench.  You need closer to 36 to 42 inches. minimum 315 radius or maybe 354mm. I think you can do 354 on 30 inches wide, but it will be very close to the edge. Don't want your Shinkansen to drop to the floor!

The Tomix shinkansen run okay on the kit supplied R280 so it's not an issue on the outer loop. Not sure how they wil run on the R243 inner loop. I have some currently in transit from Banzai Hobby which should arrive in the next week or two. There will be a lip on the edges, so hopefully no major catastrophes. Also, as the curves are mostly hidden, it shouldn't look too ridiculous when they're entering and exiting the tunnels.

[ehtcom]

3 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Fun little layout! Good to have something to play with to keep your interest up and hone your goals for the bigger layout as well as learn and practice scenery techniques.
 

@ehtcom as bill notes shinkansens are going to be pretty tight on those curves so I would check them out before getting too deep if you really must have them. They sometimes run ok on 282mm but can be cranky and look awful on the curves. Definitely good to have some track and try out the trains you want to use on the various radiuses and see if they work and it works for you.
 

Make sure to have a lot of access to those hidden tracks. Everyone I have known with extensive hidden tracks has lamented to me at some point they didn’t give enough easy access to theirs’! Spy cams are great to watch as you use the hidden tracks, but another feature to engineer into your design and build.

 

What you have designed is excellent for one and two car trains and maybe up to 4, but not for more. Not clear if your longest spur on the bottom loop could hold 4 x 20m cars. To get 4 or more comfortably you would need to move up to something like a 3’x6’ layout.

 

There is a wonderful book on small layouts, but sadly out of print currently so can be a bit expensive to buy. But wonderful ideas for small layouts like this. Best track/layout planning book I’ve ever seen. 

 

jeff

Thanks Jeff.

It should be a fun layout and good way to gain experience for my eventual layout.

The shinkansen I currently have (E5, E6, N700) run okay on the R280. No idea if they run okay on R243, but will find out soon. I'll definitly make up the layout and run trains to test everything prior to commiting to a design.

 

The top deck is going to be hinged at the rear so it will lift up giving plaenty of access.

 

Checking local supplies for plywood. I can get A-grade 4mm marine plywood in 1220mm x 810mm sheets. So makong the layout a little deeper (up to 750mm) isn't off the table. I could run R317 and R280 curves and it would also allow a little extra room for longer spurs. I'd really like to run 4 car trains.

 

I'm also toying with the idea or going JR east and a later era. It will work better with my eventual Akihabara layout and I already have an E5, and E6 shinkansen. with JR East having so many different models, it will make for a good visual display as 3 different trains appear across the inner loop.

Funny you should mention that book. I did see that thread and ordered a copy for myself. Actually arrive this morning in the mail 🙂

 

Regards, Earle.

[cteno4]

Earle,

 

lol, you will love the book I think, tons of ideas. The perspective sketch style is really nice and good for the imagination. It’s one of those books that’s alway fun to pick up and flip through.

 

Cool with hinging lid should have watched the video.

 

Marine ply is really nice to work with. 4mm is a bit thin but with proper bracing it can work. Hard to screw into 4mm but pin nailers work well with well glued joints. How many ply is the 4mm? I’ve used the 11 ply 12mm marine ply in some furniture and the edges are actually nice to leave exposed. Also damn hard plywood with all those layers and resin.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[ehtcom]

@cteno4

I've had a quick flick through and really like what I see, Looking forward to sitting down this evening and reading through it (with the help of google translate).

 

Not sure how many laminations. From the online pictures it looks to be 7 ply. For the base I'll use a piece with 30mm x 12mm hardwood bracing on edge glued and brad nailed. For the upper deck, also one peice with hardwood strip bracing 30 x 12mm but on the flat. The bottom perimeter I'll use 90 x 12mm This will give a nice 56mm clearance between the topside of the bottom deck and underside of the top deck, but I'll adjust as needed once I have mockups built and tunnel portals at hand.

 

I just did a quick plan of a resized bottom level at 1220 x 750mm run C317 and C280 radius curves. I may end up going that way as it means I can definitely run 4 car trains.

 

Cheers, Earle.

 

 

Edited August 20 by ehtcom

[ehtcom]

Taking onboard the above advice I have come up with a modified layout on a slightly larger 1220mm x 750mm base.
The lower section now runs C280-45 radius and C317-45 curves with the last section each side as it exits the tunnels at C354-45 radius and C391-45. This should be a better look for the Shinkansen. The larger base also allows for more length on the hidden spurs to accommodate 4 car trains.

On the top deck a hidden siding has been added at the rear to allow for the coming and going of freight. I've removed one of the front sidings giving more space for scenery. Whilst tempted to fill the front of the top deck with more sidings I believe adding scenery here would achieve a better look overall.

 

Again, only too happy for more suggestions to improve the layout.

 

Thanks, Earle.

[MeTheSwede]

Here are some thoughts and suggestions that you may or may not find useful.

 

It looks odd to me that the inner Shinkanzen track has three storage sidings, but the other has none. If you remove those 70mm straights, there is room on the outer loop too. Also the storage sidings should be longer if you let all track run paralell, rather than have storage sidings bend towards the middle.

 

Trains have overhang in curves and on the bottom level there is almost no space at all between track and the edges of the layout. There might not be room to fit an outer wall.

 

As for the upper level, there's a lot of track up there. Are you sure you need all of it? Often less is more and there doesn't seem to be much space up there for an industrial area, i.e. buildings with some road access and so on. Usually planing scenery and track at the same time will give better results than doing track first and do scenery more as an after thought.

[ehtcom]

@MeTheSwede thanks for your input. 

I set up a trail layout today on my workbench, and as expected space it pretty tight. I will have to reduce the width of the loop slightly. The front to back I can cut the plywood slightly bigger 770mm instead of 750mm. The idea of the three hidden spurs is to use the Tomix 5574 auto controller to run three trains out and back. See pic below, Mode 5

I did set up an example, but it seems my 5574 controller is faulty. I'll have to investigate further as I have only used it the one time prior to today.

 

I do like a track heavy layout. Again I'll set up the track to get a feel for it before I commit.

I'm pretty new to Scarm, so I'll play around and see if I can get some roads and buildings on the 3D view.

 

Thanks, Earle.

 

[cteno4]

5 hours ago, ehtcom said:

Again I'll set up the track to get a feel for it before I commit.

Always a smart thing to do!

 

jeff

[brill27mcb]

Your 5574 Automatic Operation Unit may not be faulty. It is important to follow the track plan and wiring arrangement in the manual exactly. The first train should come out of the siding that passes through 2 turnouts on their straight route, so that would be the leftmost siding in your plan (with its own turnout manually set to curved). Train 2 then comes out of the middle siding (through a curved and then a straight turnout route), then Train 3 runs just through its own turnout on the curved route. Sensor 4, the end point for all of the out-and-back movements, should be in the lower-left part of the inner oval track, either before or inside the tunnel. The DC track feeder should be inserted into the track on the front of the oval, from the inner side, not the outer side, in order to match the manual. You have designed your layout as a left-to-right mirror image of the manual's drawings, so make sure that is not fouling up the logic.

 

For testing purposes, put just a locomotive in each of the sidings, with the turnout for the leftmost siding set to the curved route. Turn the delay and inertia dials on the 5574 to "Min". Then, when you try to run the layout with Mode 5, what exactly happens? How far to things proceed, and where do things seem to go wrong?

 

Rich K.

Edited August 21 by brill27mcb

[ehtcom]

6 hours ago, brill27mcb said:

Your 5574 Automatic Operation Unit may not be faulty. It is important to follow the track plan and wiring arrangement in the manual exactly. The first train should come out of the siding that passes through 2 turnouts on their straight route, so that would be the leftmost siding in your plan (with its own turnout manually set to curved). Train 2 then comes out of the middle siding (through a curved and then a straight turnout route), then Train 3 runs just through its own turnout on the curved route. Sensor 4, the end point for all of the out-and-back movements, should be in the lower-left part of the inner oval track, either before or inside the tunnel. The DC track feeder should be inserted into the track on the front of the oval, from the inner side, not the outer side, in order to match the manual. You have designed your layout as a left-to-right mirror image of the manual's drawings, so make sure that is not fouling up the logic.

 

For testing purposes, put just a locomotive in each of the sidings, with the turnout for the leftmost siding set to the curved route. Turn the delay and inertia dials on the 5574 to "Min". Then, when you try to run the layout with Mode 5, what exactly happens? How far to things proceed, and where do things seem to go wrong?

 

Rich K.

 

Thanks for the reply Rich.

 

I had initially set it up wrong (sensors on the side). I corrected the mistake and still nothing. On initial power power up, one set of points cycles, but the other doesn't. No train movement at all. On mode thru I can manually control the trains. Thinking perhaps a sensor was faulty causing it to shut down,  I decided to test it in mode 6 (loop with two sensors for a station stop). This worked okay. I then swapped sensors one at a time and all was good.

Next I tried mode 7. Single loop with a station siding running two trains in the same direction. This also worked fine. On initial power up each set of points cycles. Both trains run as they should.

Next I tried mode 8, same layout, this time one train runs in the opposite direction. This worked okay for the first train, but the second train wont run. Points cycle after the first train runs around.

 

At this stage I'm thinking it is a problem with the "left" direction on the 5574. I'll do some more testing later today to confirm.

I did purchase the unit in April through Amazon Japan store front (shipped to Australia) Not sure if there is a warranty.

I should also mention, when the unit first arrived it functioned perfect on mode 5.

 

If I can't return it for a replacement, I'll open it up to investigate. I hear relays switching, you never know, could be a faulty relay or simply a dry solder joint.

If I still have no luck I have already re-designed the layout to suit mode 7 operation. And having seen how tight space is with 4 car shinkansen on the above layout, it may prove to be a better option.

 

Revisions 3 and 4 of the bottom deck below.

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the look of the bottom layout as I can run three shinkansen and they can be all the same model. Unlike the initial layout that requires the three inner loop trains to be different. Running the same model would be more in keeping with my original Tokaido shinkansen line theme.

I'm thinking I could make this area a station with a platform at the front edge and maybe one between the middle and rear lines (not a true shinkansen station design, but, 1220mm x 750mm). Otherwise there will be a train stopped in the middle for no real reason. 

 

Earle.

 

 

[brill27mcb]

With the upper drawing (Revision 3?), that has the double-ended siding in the tunnel on the inner oval, you could run Mode 7. Then two trains would alternately run across the visible front of the oval. With two trains of different colors or appearance, that would break up the viewer's recognition that what he is seeing is really just one train going around and around. In Doug Coster's old "Setagaya" exhibition layout, he used an Automatic Operation Unit in this ways on both ovals, with the sidings hidden behind a scenic backdrop. What the viewer saw out front was a variety of shinkansen trains running across his layout through the city. He also added a third passing track on each oval in the back, with switch-thrown turnouts and daisy-chained sensors from the second hidden siding tracks. When he saw that a viewer was catching on that there were two trains alternating on each oval, he would quietly throw those turnouts , which would send out a Dr. Yellow train or something similar. That would totally confuse the onlooker again, and keep him watching longer. And, using the AOU in this way, he could adjust the time delay so the two trains were reasonably spaced out in appearing out front.

 

Rich K.

[ehtcom]

I do like the idea of different trains appearing on the line, but I also like the idea of a station siding at the front. 

I did a little test today and made a video. I like the look and think a pair of 0 series shinkansen would look great.
 

 

[ehtcom]

After having no joy at a return option for the Tomix 5574, I decided to open it up and see what I can find. I managed to track the fault to one of the relays not switching. One is used to switch points, the other switches (flips) the power out to the track. The relay itself is fine, and the diode accross its coil is fine. Seems to be a fault in the small transistor circuit which pulls one side of the relay coil to 0 volt. All surface mount stuff, so I'll have to break out a magnifying light to trace the circuit.

 

 

Edited August 24 by ehtcom

[cteno4]

Wow, kudos!

 

jeff

[brill27mcb]

It's interesting to see the inside of the box!

 

Rich K.

 

[ehtcom]

Did some more investigating today and unfortunately there is no signal coming out of the PIC16F819 microcontroller chip to switch the transistors (which in turn activate the relay). Nothing can be done by myself as it requires the PIC to be reprogrammed, or replaced if faulty and the new PIC programmed. 

Looks like this unit will be relegated to station start, stop duties and or the layout above. Both the transistors tested okay. As do surrounding resistors.

 

PIC microcontroller.

 

Transistor to switch relay.

 

DC motor controller.

Edited August 25 by ehtcom

[ehtcom]

And now for something completely different. 

A suburban 1220 x 750mm layout with depot.

 

[cteno4]

Someone has been thumbing thru the 50 layouts book…

 

jeff

[ehtcom]

It's a great book.