My plan from the ground up

[N-Osoi]

Hi all

 

I'm new and starting from scratch. I have a Kato M2 track kit which makes a fairly large oval and siding, but I'm not sure that I can initially find all that space (200x75cm), also I'm not sure its the most interesting layout! I also grabbed a few extra 45 curves and long straights.

 

What's a good (realistic) size layout to aim for in setting up my train space? And do people usually just buy a big piece of plywood or something to set it all out on? I don't have a desk big enough to begin with... As a child we had a huge games room with a central ping pong table but those days are over 😄 

 

I did find the RailModeller software (I'm on MacOS) which seems great for planning.

 

 

[cteno4]

Osoi,

 

well the first is a hard question to answer as there are many variables to what folks like in their layout plan. As for space, usual rule is there never enough!

 

best way to start to figure out what to do is to play with your trains some to start to see what interests you the most and if you have any dislikes to avoid. Kato has a number of plans to take a look at to get some ideas.

 

https://katousa.com/n-track-plan-examples/

https://www.katomodels.com/unitrackplan/index
 

This little book is also really wonderful at visualizing small layout plans and a great resource. Looks to be out of print now and only used and it’s not cheap, but it really is one of the best track planning books I’ve ever seen.

 

railmodeler is the main Mac track planning software, most others are pc only or require installation of xwindows. It’s quite a good program and a reasonable price. It’s been kept up to date pretty well over the years as well.

 

but most important is to few more track pieces and start playing as much as you can. Software helps to fool around, especially when getting into the detail bits, but looking at the big picture works much better physically with some track. As you play plop some buildings down or mock up some buildings with rough mockup boxes out of cardboard to get a feel on how structures will feel with the layout plan. Hills can be clumps of wadded paper taped down, roads out of construction paper.

 

for layout bases there are a lot of ways to approach that depending on size, requirements, and resources. Many do plywood with a framework underneath to stabilize it and keep it flat. Some just use expanded polystyrene foam boards to make the base. Starting out a hollow core for or hunk of plywood sitting in a folding table can be a starting point for playing and get off the floor or dining room table.

 

take a look through the layout planning and layout forums here to see what others have done and how they have gone about it for ideas. I’ve tried to get a wide range of layout articles up on our club website for beginners to get an idea of the variety of things you can do.

keep asking questions and keep modifying your loop to try different things.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[N-Osoi]

Thanks! Yes I think I need a few more bits of track. I'm going to scout the local hobby shop scene and see what they stock before I jump online. I think I need more points/switches and curves. Thanks for those links, that's really useful. 

 

I did buy a few structures but that's also a cool idea about boxes as buildings for scale... and oh no I just found the Sankei paper building thread. 😄  So cool!

 

My designated room is a decent size but I need to play with my furniture layout (much like tracks on a train layout!) to best use the space, while incorporating WFH setup, a hobbying desk, big TV, shelving etc.

 

Thanks for the advice!

[Wolf]

8 hours ago, N-Osoi said:

And do people usually just buy a big piece of plywood or something to set it all out on? I don't have a desk big enough to begin with... As a child we had a huge games room with a central ping pong table but those days are over

Well, I am not the norm I guess, but at the office I just bougth tables the sice I needed, and startet to glue all on the top.

At home where space is an issue, I started to use T-Track for removable stuff (although its currently a bit on hiatus in favor of the office layout)

A lot of people pointed me towards the Kato unitrack plans made available on their website (https://www.katomodels.com/unitrackplan/index) and are usually designed around "Tatami" Sizes of 1800x900 - Maybe you find something suitable there. (EDIT: just realised Jeff already linked them, sorry)

Stephan

 

[bill937ca]

The radius with the M2 set is R315. To reduce the foot print, you could drop that down to R282. You might also place the siding on the inside of the oval.

 

A previous M2 design discussion:

 

 

Edited March 27 by bill937ca

[N-Osoi]

18 minutes ago, bill937ca said:

The radius with the M2 set is R315. To reduce the foot print, you could drop that down to R282. You might also place the siding on the inside of the oval.

 

A previous M2 design discussion:

 

 

Oh that's great, and yes a good idea. I bought the railway platform that will fit the siding perfectly so I might try that. We have a long weekend so I'll give it a go.

[N-Osoi]

Am I right in thinking that the difference between Kato's #4 and #6 turnout is that #6 has a larger radius, therefore a more gentle curve?

 

Also, you can't really mix and match track brands easily, I assume? My local is out of all Kato turnouts/points (Do we use points here or turnouts?)

 

And one more question - Kato seems to have a large range of radius curves. I've had a search and is it right that *most* Kato trains will be OK on R249 curves? I randomly bought some of those to reach the tax-free threshold at one shop 😄  

Edited March 27 by N-Osoi

[cteno4]

Track radius and layout size also depend a lot on the equipment you want to run. Shinkansens won’t run well of r249 or look good on r282 and to run a 16 car shinkensen you need a longer layout, even an 8 car train can look strange in a shorter layout. Shinkansens also don’t protypically run (but it’s your rr you can run them where ever you want!) on regular tracks and most put them on viaduct track and this quickly increases layout size. If you stick to smaller trains like 1-4 cars then life can be easier on a small layout with shorter mainlines and tighter curved as well as smaller sidings needed. You will find the model railroad hobby, and layouts specifically, is all about tradeoffs and finding the permutations that give you the most within your limitations. You first have to work on what are the variables that are most important to you, then determine any basic interaction of those variables (ie layout side to train length), then fiddle with the variables to find the best permutation of values that give you the most back for your enjoyment! But the good/bad thing is it’s an everlasting fiddling which some hate, but I find as my interest and situation changes it’s fun to have a hobby that can flow with you. Ok [yoda mode] off.

 

a hot glue gun, xacto, ruler, and some chipboard or heavy cardstock (scrap boxes or cheap stuff at the craft/art store or even corrugated cardboard) are your friend. It’s really quick to mock up a building size/shape. You can even draw some windows on it or cover with some construction paper or spray paint. Basically you just want the space filled so you get the idea of how the buildings look next to tracks, where it’s good or bad when structures hide trees, and just mainly see what you like (some like dense, others more sparse). There are a number of free printable pdf structures out there as well. Print them on cardstock or on paper and glue to cardstock, cut the out and paste together. PM me if you want some of them I have collected off the web that are free. Also some sources to get files pretty inexpensively if you are into doing these. It is an inexpensive way to get something together quickly as buildings can get expensive and are items that can be more expensive these days to ship. It’s also not wasted time as the basic skill sets of cutting and gluing are very key in the hobby and it’s a bit of innate skill but mostly just practice, practice, practice that gets you wielding an xacto and glue bottle like a pro! Also best to practice on stuff that doesn’t matter if you screw up!  You can also just put a piece of fabric down on your table to look more ground line and poke holes in it to run wires underneath it to hide them. It also catapults some Unitrak on a table of floor into something feeling more like a layout and helps increase your enjoyment which is important in the early phases as you can get frustrated at steps and continuing to play some and keep it rich and varied helps a lot in not getting stuck somewhere.

 

many folks just stick to temporary layouts for a long time or forever. The first 5 years of our club was temporary layouts set up on the fly at train shows. We put down construction paper on the bases for roads, concrete, dirt, etc areas and plopped in buildings and small scenery islands. This can make quite a fun layout and be especially helpful to have fun and start learning more layout design and scenery techniques until you have decided on your layout. Here is a great article on doing scenery islands like this and scenery just around building bases to really push a temporary layout into something that looks great, but can easily be put away! It’s also the best way to get into doing scenery. If something screws up no big deal, little lost and do again to figure it out, best way to learn with minimal loss. Then you have bits of examples of scenery to allow you to visualize what you may want on an eventual layout. This lets you test out scenery technique on small bits to learn and see what does best for you. Just about every scenery bit has like 5 major techniques to do them, each with their own benefits and risks and I always find one just speaks to my hands and skill and gives me the look I want for a desired investment of time and money.

 

beware the sankei bug it’s addictive! Takes one or two of them to get started on how it all works and see if it fits your skills and patience level. But I find them very zen like to do and nice satisfaction from them. I’m a big woodworker and sankei uses a lot of interesting joints built up from layers of the laserboard that speak to me! They are reasonably priced and with their colored laserboard you don’t need to do any painting or edge touch up to have a very nice little structure!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[bill937ca]

Most JR stock is 20m long.  There are some legacy private railways like the Keikyu run 18m stock which is more amendable to sharper radius curves.

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10915447

 

Keikyu 2100 series is a two-door limited-express train.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keikyu_2100_series

[N-Osoi]

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

many folks just stick to temporary layouts for a long time or forever.

Thanks again Jeff,

 

Yes I think it will be temporary stuff for a while. As a kid I just liked re-arranging my tracks and running trains in various patterns and shapes... this still appeals to me but now I also want to build scenery, so the island idea sounds great, or just a bunch of buildings that can be re-arranged as necessary. I don't foresee ever having enough space to run a 'proper' length Shinkansen (or 8-car Yamanote line) that won't look silly anyway 😄 . What would be cool though (dreaming here) is a small layout with local trains, but a separate viaduct track with hidden ends that has a Nozomi speed through it every minute or so 😎. Anyway enough posting, time to set up some trains and track.

 

 

[cteno4]

Good so temporary for now suits you well it sounds like. That’s the great thing about Unitrak is it’s super hardy stuff and lets you just play a lot over and over and over! Track planning software is great to try ideas quickly then make them with real track.
 

yeah that sounds great, you could curve the shinkansen back in maybe r249 hidden curves. Most shinkansens can actually take r249 regular track, but just look awful. Curves could be hidden in hills on each end and rest out front your local lines and scenery, would only add like half a meter to your layout width.

 

you could even fold a viaduct loop in with returns at both end and either hide the back tracks or run all 4 of the tracks into a single, short shinaksen station in the back of the layout. End loops could be scenery like fields, mountains or other town. This gives the front and center of the layout to the local tracks and scenery for that. But you are now talking more like 3m+ layout! 
 

one last thought on layouts is to think modular (like Ttrak) or sectional layouts. With modular you can go with a standard format like Ttrak or make your own. Downside is it sticks you to loops but it’s easier to store and perhaps play with others. Sectional is taking a regular layout and cutting up in sections that you can easily pull apart for storage, moving, or even taking to events to show off. Just requires looking at your plan for strategic places to create the joints and building bases to match this joint pattern. The modules don’t have to be the same size or shape. It’s a little extra electrical work to put electrical connectors between modules but not horrible. Our club layout moved to this format after we got tired of big on the fly setups!

 

enjoy!

 

jeff

[N-Osoi]

OK I'm up and running! 

 

Everything works. I used some 249 curves to make an asymmetric oval that fits on this temporary table. The M2 pack came with English instructions as well! All the trains survived their long haul flight. The Tomix motor is noticeably louder but it's a diesel so that kinds works. The interior light is ridiculously bright! I love how the head/tail lights automatically go white/red depending on direction.

 

Is it true that new locos need a bit of running in?

 

And I appear to have a few extra bits and decals to attach to my red wing... do Kato make English guides for that or is it a case of using a magnifying glass and Google translate for getting the right decals? 

 

 

[cteno4]

fun to have trains running! Keep an eye on ikea, they have some light tables that come apart easily that may help with play space expansion. One JNS member has a ton of their little like 18”x18”x18” tables that nest or legs come off easily and he just sets up a bunch of them in the shape needed for a temp layout. He has made some monstrous ones this way with dozens of tables.
 

Yes many trains may be a bit growly for the first half hour of running. Putting the train in for 15-20 minute spins at a medium speed can help get it running smoother. If one continues really growling then it may need a little lubrication. New trains usually come lubricated, but now and then I’ve gotten a new train that looks to not have been lubed. If you need to lube at all we have a number of topics with in-depth discussion on that.

 

jeff

[Kamome]

6 hours ago, N-Osoi said:

do Kato make English guides for that or is it a case of using a magnifying glass and Google translate for getting the right decals? 

No English instructions for Japanese stock. British and American Kato stock have instructions in Japanese and English.  The visuals should help you fit parts reasonably easily. On the Red Wing I assume it’s anti-jump barriers for the front and probably some roof equipment. Stickers will be service names and/or destinations, sometimes reserved or non reserved for limited expresses. Google translate the instructions but after you’ve done a train or two, you can probably fathom what goes where.

[cteno4]

Google translate on your phone helps to take a picture of a bit of the instructions and diagrams and get a rough idea.

 

jeff

[N-Osoi]

A hard thing is planning how to layout my room. It's my own personal space in the house, so I get to set it out but also has a few purposes including my work from home area. I also game and watch sport so I have a biggish TV.

 

I can't really figure out how best to lay things out, but this seems to be the best layout so far. Feel free to make any comments. 

W - work from home/computer area

H - hobby desk

TV - TV

S - various shelving units

L - planned train layout area. I have budgeted 210cm x 90cm (82in x 35in) with access from three sides

C - linen cabinet

Arrow shows traffic area that must be kept clear as it is a stair landing to door. Dimensions are in cm. Maybe I'm overthinking and should just do it 😛 

 

 

 

[N-Osoi]

Eh I think I figured it out. TV goes down the top end and I put most of the shelves (incl. big unit) down towards the stairs. Sometimes you just have to see it in a new context to help!

[Sir Madog]

90cm is quite a width - a lttle too wide for an easy reach, especially if you plan on putting up catenary masts. My advice would be putting the layout on casters so you can move it around easily, should you need access to the back part.

[N-Osoi]

Oh good idea

[cteno4]

Yes castors really a must at that depth, plus you can move the layout out to the center of the room if you want. Really can only effectively work about 12”-18” deep max. You can work deeper but not for long or well. 24” is pretty hard even with long arms!

 

might think of making the layout base be shelves at either end with casters underneath. You can also have roll around storage units (ie drawers or cabinets that can go under the layout for more storage. When you need to work under the layout on wiring (this doesn’t happen that often once working) just pull out all the storage rollarounds.

 

take a good looks at the space needed for your work from home area. Many jobs now have very little paper anymore and it’s mainly just the computer screen and maybe a place on one side for some papers. I have gone from needing large work area to practically nothing in my computer work space. So much equipment has also has gone poof or gotten very small. Could your work desk also be your home computer space and just swap the laptop or both use the same monitor? Usbc has made connecting a laptop to a monitor and accessories really easy now. My new Mac air connects to the studio display with one usbc cable to both power the laptop from the monitor and provide video to the monitor and has 3 usbc/Thunderbolt ports for accessories. So easy to just dock the air into the larger monitor system with one cable! Pcs are starting to do similar things. Also if you are using an external monitor on your laptops nicer to just have one really good monitor than two on two desks.
 

A hobby bench, though, can always use extra space! I tend to have multiple projects going at once so having an easy place to have access to them on the hobby bench helps. One trick I went to was I have a drawer unit that fits little plastic party trays (like 11x17”) that have small lip edges. I keep all the parts of a project on them and then can drop it in a drawer for storage when not working on it. Keeps parts together and prevents me from putting something down on top of something! Rollarounds drawer units are also great for a tight hobby space. They can roll out to be on either side of you while working for easy acess to stuff, then roll under the hobby bench when you are not using it. Top of the rollarounds also give you some extra work surfaces while out.

 

also look carefully at the furniture you are using to see if it’s the right piece for the space how you want it. Unless emotional attachment to something or you have no finances to find some new pieces you may find just changing one or two things out for pieces that would fit the space better can be a big bingo moment.

 

you going to have some nice tv chair in there?

 

fiddling like this for a little bit on paper is good as you found stitch into ends, but you are right at some point you just need to do it and see how it feels in the space, looking at 2d or 3d on the computer screen is not the same as being in it! Luckily nothing looks too hard to move around if you find it needs some rejiggering. You can mock up the layout with a folding tables and corrugated cardboard on top to fill the space.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[N-Osoi]

Thanks Jeff, yes the work from home area is also my non-work computer area, just that the H-hobby area has a computer on the plan image but doesn't IRL. I was using the hobby desk as my work/computer desk and it was slightly too small. I need to use two monitors as well. 

 

Rolling shelves/storage under the layout is a great idea too. I do have a comfy TV chair but I will keep it if there's space. Also have a coffee table but that's gonna go. And yes, I need to let go of some stuff that I've collected over the years but would be better served with the space. Anyway, I think I've got the plan sorted now, just gotta move a really heavy bookshelf that's anchored to the wall 😛

[N-Osoi]

Ikea Krille legs look like a good option. Will attach to a suitable size tabletop.

[N-Osoi]

OK, now going to get a hunk of plywood. I have space for 210cm x 85 cm that would sit on a smaller desktop - is 6mm plywood too thin to have a bit of overhang around the edges? I'm not ready for a permanent framed thing yet...

[katoftw]

1800 of 6mm ply will just buckle in the middle.  It will need bracing.  Hit bunnings up for some DAR pine.

 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/42-x-19mm-1-8m-dar-pine-premium-1-8m_p8401457

4-5 of these wont break the bank. 40-45 dollars.  3 longways and the rest cut up for bracing.

[N-Osoi]

Thanks, good idea. Just seems that Bunnings doesn't have much in between thin plywood or thick boards. I have a tabletop to go under it 1200 x 600, might look elsewhere for slightly thicker plywood? Given the choice, 9mm ideal with a bracing under it?