1997-1999 Consists and Schedules

[mitchschuess]

Hi all,

 

My first post here on the forum! I’ve been planning a layout that features the Tohoku Shinkansen, the Utsunomiya Line, and the Tohoku Main Line just outside of Fukushima. The time period of 1997-1999 was when I gained an interest in railways, and specifically the Shinkansen. Additionally, this allows me to model every series from the 200 to the E4. I also kinda prefer the 400’s in the old paint!

 

The core idea is to create eight 2’x10’ modules that would connect together with two 2’x2’ “turning modules” at each end. I want at minimum to fit one 200 H Set in one module. Ironically, when all the modules are connected together, they are the length of a single Shinkansen car. 

 

This layout would integrate the following operations to give it some operational interest: dispatching Shinkansen sets from the Nasushiobara layover yard, Shinkansen runs, stops at Nasushiobara station, Rail and parts delivery to the layover facility, local and suburban service at Nozaki and Minami-Fukushima, limited express, sleeper trains, high speed freight, manifest freight, and the role of dispatcher.

 

My main focus is to recreate the schedule of trains on both lines at this time, such that I know which consists to have and how many I need. This would also include freight traffic on the route.

 

The things that remain unclear to me are the following:

- The Shinkansen Types are self evident, but I would want to know which sets were assigned to which service.

- For the suburban trains, so far I can assume the 211, 115, 187, 107, and 113 series were performing the runs to Kurioso. However, which consists were used on these lines? Am I missing any series for 1997-1999?

-For long distance and limited express, those are a bit fuzzy. The Cassiopeia and Hokutosei are clear, but the articles on the 485 and 489 weren’t clear on which consists were used on the route. Are there any other long distance trains on this route towards Fukushima?

-What trains were used around Fukushima for local, suburban, and limited express trains at this time?

 

I always start a layout design in Excel, and it allows me to plan the schedule, consists, track lengths, etc. It’s also fun doing the research, as it has already proven to be difficult.

 

Ive also started a Swiss N-Scale layout, and is just a 4’x4’ with track and signaling complete. Structures and scenery is next, but that will always be a test bed layout. I learned a lot of lessons building it, and can’t wait to complete it. However, I want a more prototypical layout that is more minimalist, very broad curves, and intriguing operations. I would want to treat each module as a landscape painting with a vertical opening of only 12”.  It could be sort of like a videogame of shooting bullet trains through the scenery, and moving local traffic with a parade of freight!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

[Kamome]

 

2 hours ago, mitchschuess said:

The Cassiopeia and Hokutosei are clear, but the articles on the 485 and 489 weren’t clear on which consists were used on the route

485s were being used on Hitachi services along with 651s and E653s on Super Hitachi and Fresh Hitachi. 485s were phased out in 1998.

[cteno4]

Welcome mitchschuess, glad you found us!

 

wow 84’ long layout?! Is this to be a show layout? Are the end 2’x2’ modules loop back modules? If so it’s going to be very tight radius for shinkansens and larger Japanese passenger trains. 
 

looking forward to seeing the module setups and overall track plan.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[bill937ca]

To reverse a Shinkansen you need more like 3 feet, maybe 42 inches.

[mitchschuess]

On 5/20/2023 at 2:32 AM, cteno4 said:

wow 84’ long layout?! Is this to be a show layout?

In a way, yes!
 

On 5/20/2023 at 2:47 AM, bill937ca said:

To reverse a Shinkansen you need more like 3 feet, maybe 42 inches.

I should have been clear about the end modules. I figured I could use the entire 84’ to loop on itself. Some call this a Nolix. I will need an extra 3-4” on the back side of the modules for hidden track. The idea is that the train wouldn’t go through all the scenes at once. The centerpiece is Nasushiobara, and that takes up four modules. One for the layover facility, one for the ramps and north interlocking, one for the station, and one for the south interlocking. There would be another pair of modules for Nozaki station, and where the Tohoku Main Line passes underneath the Shinkansen. The remaining modules would be individual scenes. With four total scenes, and treating each as one loop along the length the entire layout, the total mainline length would be roughly 760’. I would just ensure each module fits, and as I build the modules , it would be easy to make loops with UniTrak with each individual module.

 

I’d probably spend a few years just modeling everything in a 3D CAD software, and working on trains, structures, catenary poles, switches.

 

I also researched narrow gauge, and now it cannot be unseen. I think that would be a fun challenge, and a unique modeling opportunity to have both gauges. Which is why I’m also trying to get specifics on equipment consists. I would only want to convert rolling stock to narrow gauge that I absolutely need and nothing else. Then figure out how I can scale the timetable on a fast clock based on the layout length between Tokyo and Fukushima, and figure out if I need any multiple sets.

Edited May 21, 2023 by disturbman

[mitchschuess]

On 5/20/2023 at 1:23 AM, Kamome said:

485s were being used on Hitachi services along with 651s and E653s on Super Hitachi and Fresh Hitachi. 485s were phased out in 1998.

The Hitachi services didn’t go through this area, as they branched off at Ueno onto the Joban Line.

I almost need a map that has every JR East named service at the time, and where they all went. Then compare that to a consist diagram.

Edited May 21, 2023 by disturbman

[bill937ca]

The Ou Main Line branches off at Fukushima Station.  https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/奥羽本線#

 

Most of the freight trains in this section are high-speed freight trains made up of container cars currently pulled by EF81 and EF510 electric locomotives.  JNR discontinued less than carload freight in 1985.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/奥羽本線#貨物輸送

 

Vehicles used between Fukushima Station and Shinjo Station on the OU line and entering from the Senzan Line .

455 Series 1955-2001     https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/国鉄457系電車

719 Series 1990-2013     https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本719系電車

ED78     https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/国鉄ED78形電気機関車

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/仙山線#過去の運行車両

 

Senzan Line

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/仙山線#

 

Fukushima Station

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/福島駅_(福島県)

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by bill937ca

[cteno4]

Wow that is big! Do you have a good sized space to work on it? 2’x10’ long modules are going to take a good sized lory to transport.

 

you will probably need more like 3-4’ wide x 4-6’ long end modules to get a decent loop back to get a good radius curve to look nice. 2’ wide is just way too narrow to do a 180. Kato double viaduct is just over a half a meter radius.

 

might also think about a loop of modules with 4 corner modules. Lets you have all the layout for display and folks can go all the way around it. Corners help separate scenes in a short space as if all sides of the rectangle are different layouts. May be better suited to display in some venues that may not be able to give 90-100’ run. Even with our smaller club layout at like 27’ with the large yard off one end we couldn’t fit in some show spaces with the yard on the layout. 
 

keep us posted on your progress, sounds very cool!
 

jeff

[mitchschuess]

@cteno4 Ive been also thinking of being strict in that any curve less than 24” would be completely hidden. The end modules would be black boxes. Perhaps if I plan it correctly, the end modules could also be corner modules.

 

For the time being, I would only be able to build structures and plan the modules. I’ve been playing with 4000m and 2500m radius curves and they look good across 10’, and that is the best part about Nasushiobara station. I will probably end up 3D printing the track bed and hand laying the rails to capture those curves. There would be a plethora of small details that I would need to CAD up, print, paint, etc. That’s what I can do with apartment living and a laptop. I would have an entire fleet of rolling stock to convert to narrow gauge, and wait until newer releases for what I need for better detail. Hopefully someone does another run of the 400 series with today’s manufacturing technology, and I’d rather wait for that than buying anything new.

 

I do need something that would be able to test trackwork, and maybe I can get opinions on who makes the best Shinkansen models. I would like to super detail them, and add micro LEDs to destination signs and whatnot.

[mitchschuess]

Thanks @bill937ca! Those articles were very helpful! Now I need to wait until someone makes a 719 series.

[disturbman]

9 hours ago, mitchschuess said:

Now I need to wait until someone makes a 719 series.

 

Has been done a few several time by Micro Ace. Last release was pretty recent, so I'm not sure you can count on a quick re-release. Maybe Kato will decide to jump in but that's a gamble.

 

Your best bet is to look for these on Yahoo Japan Auctions. Here is the list of item numbers for you to search: https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=rail&state=&sold=0&sortid=6&searchkey=719&Make=Micro+Ace&spage=1&ItemSeries=Electric+Car

[mitchschuess]

Thanks @disturbman! Is Micro Ace better than Kato? I’m still trying to discern the nuances. The 719 seems like a niche model that they jumped on.

 

The recent run of the Kato E4 looks pretty good, as that would be perfect to test trackwork and clearances. However, I’d be willing to wait 5 or so years until they do another run.

[disturbman]

Micro Ace is more of a niche producer than Kato, they will do the more obscure JR trains and a lot of small and big private railways. Micro Ace makes lovely trains, notably their liveries are top notch, but Kato has the better reputation. At that level of quality, I'm not sure it actually make any difference. The main manufacturers are all extremely good with different drawbacks and advantages, with some models better than others and some worse. Anyway, we have had that conversation many times on the forum. It's a slippery slope and I will let it at that.

Usually the cycle is more around 10 years in the Japanese market, with some models coming more often and some less. I recommend you try to find models from 2018 or 2020. Most sets on YJA are usually in very good shape, "close to unused" usually means "open once" and "junk" can some time mean "I lost the destination stickers", or "there is a dent on the box". You can quickly assess which trains are in good or bad shapes with the pictures.

Kato E4 is a fine model.

Edited May 21, 2023 by disturbman

[Kamome]

On 5/21/2023 at 1:57 AM, mitchschuess said:

The Hitachi services didn’t go through this area, as they branched off at Ueno onto the Joban Line.

Sorry, I reread your post again, around Fukushima. I was just brain farting about north running 485s. Not sure there was much in your time period. I believe 583 Hatsukari services went through here at one time but started further north at Morioka once the shinkansen line was operating.

 

[mitchschuess]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:37 AM, Kamome said:

Sorry, I reread your post again, around Fukushima. I was just brain farting about north running 485s. Not sure there was much in your time period. I believe 583 Hatsukari services went through here at one time but started further north at Morioka once the shinkansen line was operating.

 

You are absolutely correct. It seems like when the Shinkansen opened, a lot of services were discontinued.

 

However, I just saw a 2010 video with the 485-3000 series Niigata stock roll through Kurioso. Was this probably a random move, or was it a special train? I’m still wrapping my head around the different types of passenger service.

[mitchschuess]

My next question to the forum would be about track!

 

Has anyone run their models on Code 40 Track? The reason I ask is that I decided Fast Track jigs make the most sense for trackwork. I did a full cost analysis of all the switches I need, and it cost less per switch than commercially made track. I’ve seen a lot of great results, and I have an interest to take the plunge into hand laying track.

 

Are Kato, Tomix, and MicroAce wheels reliable on code 40 track? Are the flanges larger than our American counterparts, as I’ve seen this with European N scale.

 

If this is the case, I could reduce the jigs I need to purchase, as I can use the dual gauge turnout jig for numerous switches.

 

I have some sketches that I can share of the layout planning soon!

[Martijn Meerts]

I have a few of the Fast Tracks fixtures (and another one on the way), and they are really well made, and make building turnouts relatively easy. They do still take quite a while to build though, so that's something to also consider. For some people, their time is worth more than spending extra on turnouts.

 

My N-scale stuff runs on code 55 Peco track, and none of them have issues with that at least. So far, none of my European rolling stock has issues with it either, and I have some locos that are at least 40 years old. I do think that especially the newer stuff should work on code 40, but I've never tested that.

 

Also, something to keep in mind, when you hand lay track, your spikes will be a lot flatter than the molded plastic spikes on regular track. So that should give a little more clearance. Depending on where you're located, you could check with Fast Tracks for some sample code 40 rail so you can test it yourself. Their support was rather pleasant to talk to when I had to contact them.

 

[mitchschuess]

@Martijn MeertsThanks for the tips! Yes, Terry from Fast Tracks answered various questions I had over several emails.

 

The other reason I wanted to hand build track was the desire to have #12 switches on the Shinkansen sections. Not to mention, the layover facility north of Nasushiobara has a siding from the Utsunomiya Line that merges with a track in the yard, necessitating a set of dual-gauge turnouts.

 

Im thinking of picking up the Kato 701 Series 2-Car Set to take a pair of calipers to it and get some measurements. Seems like a good starter set to tinker with.

[Martijn Meerts]

#12 should look quite impressive with a shinkansen going through them 🙂

 

[mitchschuess]

Next question is about maximum grades for Shinkansen models.

 

There is a small maintenance facility just north of Nasushiobara that I’d like to include, and it has two ramps on either side of the line. I’ve attached a video below.

 

Nasushiobara Ramp

 

Could I get away with maybe a 4-5% grade over a short distance? Only the Shinkansens and MOW vehicles would use this ramp. I’ve had success with bullfrog snot in the past, and perhaps I could add more motors to each train set for extra power.

 

Side note, does anyone know what other activities happen at this smaller facility? I know they store Nasuno trains overnight for the morning rush, and there is a siding interchange with the Tohoku Main.

 

Thanks!

[mitchschuess]

As I said I would, I’m attaching photos of some sketches I’ve done exploring my concept of a Japanese layout. I’ve refined the module dimensions to 24”x40”. Most complete scenes require three, sticking to the 2’x10’ module. As long as I can connect the modules in order, even with Kato UniTrak and Marklin track, I can run it anywhere. Almost like Voltron. Having experience in prefabricated construction helps!

 

Here is rough diagram of the layout if I was able to assemble it in a line. If you look closely below each track diagram, there is a small dog bone shape. Imagine a hidden loop of track was made along the full 84’ of the layout. I want one of these loops in between each full scene, such that the trains disappear for a while, and return in the next module minutes later. This probably better explains the “turning modules” above, as I would only need a ballon track at the minimum radius at each end. Additionally, I can use these massive loops to easily gain elevation between modules.

 

 

A rough idea of a double tunnel through some fields, along with Nozaki Station on the Utsunomiya Line.

 

A series of sections showing Nasushiobara Station, the ramps to reach the Shinkansen layover yard, and the maintenance facility.

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by mitchschuess

[mitchschuess]

The maintenance and layover facility. Originally it was 4 tracks, which is nice as it doesn’t completely dominate the scene. The switches were tweaked to not land on module joints, and the yard is just long enough to fit a 200 series H Set, two E4’s, or a 200+400 series on the longest track. If those trains weren’t stored there, I could have an excuse to reduce the yard to fit one E1, E2+E3 sets, and 200 F and K sets.

 

A section of Kurioso Station, showing the sight lines over the Shinkansen viaduct and station entrance. 8” above grade would be enough to see the first track and platform.

 

 

A plan of Kurioso Station broken into three parts. The longest suburban trains are 10 cars, and I didn’t want too much overhang, nor did I want to foul the interlocking. It still needs some tweaking, but it’s already extremely reduced from the prototype.

 

[mitchschuess]

I decided to draw a full size section of the flyover of the Shinkansen and Utsunomiya Line just north of Nozaki, just to get a sense of scale. I also did a study comparing the narrow gauge to standard gauge, and it cannot be unseen!

 

 

Lastly, I fell in love with the tracks just south of Minami-Fukushima. I like how the Tohoku Line separates and takes different paths down the mountain terrain, and the Shinkansen splits the two on a broad curve burrowing into a tunnel. The colored diagram to the left shows the rough grade profiles. The green is the Shinkansen line starting above the Tohoku Main, and ending below both routes. The Tohoku Main in blue would be the route that splits and climbs along the contour profile of the mountain out of view, emerging from a tunnel on the other end of the scene above all the other lines. The purple is the other main that goes under the Shinkansen viaduct, across the valley with rice fields eventually ending up on an embankment above the Shinkansen before it dives into the mountain, and merging with the other Tohoku Main at a lower level.

 

 

These sketches were done with a lot of measuring in Google Earth, and extreme selective compression to capture everything, and not being too cluttered.

 

Overall I’m aiming for a minimalist layout, with enough operations to keep interest. I’m still tinkering with the idea, and I thank everyone for their feedback and advice!

[cteno4]

You can run most 8 car trains with a single motor unit up a 4-5% grade if you gun it some to keep it going. Can’t do it ultra slow as most will slip even with traction tires (many Japanese trains have traction tires). One of our club members use to make Unitrak layouts with 4-6% grades but he had to run things fast in order to keep them moving and not slipping. Longer trains and I expect you will need 2 motor cars.

 

if you want more natural movement on elevation better to keep to 2%. 3% works but requires playing the throttles more to try to get more even movement.

 

layout ideas look interesting. Smart to reduce the module size, make it easier to fabricate, store, transport and setup. Standardized size will help set up jigs and templates to construct them and set up trackwork elevations. Also lets you do smaller scenery sections if you desire shorter than 10’. This may help make the overall larger setup look more natural with scene sizes a bit more mixed some.

 

it would be helpful to see a rough sketch of the big picture and then that would help orient these smaller sections and how they would all fit together.

 

cherrs,

 

jeff

[mitchschuess]

Thanks Jeff! @cteno4

 

I have a tendency to design with consistency to the direction of viewing, and on these sections, it would always be looking eastward. North would always be to the left and South towards Tokyo would be to the right.

 

Starting from the left, the scenes would be Nozaki, Tohoku Flyover, Nasushiobara Station, Layover Yard, Kurioso, scenes with open country, and Minami-Fukushima. As of now, the total Nasushiobara scene is 40’, which includes the layover yard, ramps, the station, and the interlockings on either side of the station. This and Kurioso are the centerpiece scenes, and where the core of operation happens, however I still want to make them as small as possible.

 

My next step is to get this drawn up in Templot to precisely draw the trackwork, and see where I can trim the size of the layout further.

 

In terms of grades, the height of the viaduct near the ramps is 2.25”. At a 3% it comes out to 75”, and 5% grade is at 45”. This means the ramps span two modules minimum. I wouldn’t mind adding additional motors to eight car trains and perhaps three motors for 12 and 16 car trains to climb this grade. I would want to add momentum for slow speeds, and use this opportunity to attempt JMRI and automating operation.