I have some questions about track layout insulation points.

[Sep.]

I'm new to this forum and have just found it and a lot of it has been very helpful to me.This is the first time I'm planning to do a whole track layout, I've always had one track to play on the floor before.
My new home is now being renovated and I have a 20.44sqm study, which in the developer's design is a guest bedroom, but obviously I don't even have a wife let alone a guest.
I intend to implement gaming and AV in this room which means I need a large desk, sofa, bookshelves and a cabinet for my ps5 etc and an internet base station. This resulted that I didn't actually have much room to implement a layout plan which sit on a table. I plan to use an electric or manual lift drying rack system to raise this layout plan to the ceiling.

This allowed me to implement a four-track system. However, my university degree is in spatial experience, so I know absolutely nothing about electrical engineering. I'd like to know exactly where I should place the insulation points in this system and exactly how many controllers I'll need. And also if this idea of mine is feasible. Thank you all!

This is the plan,at the bottom of the picture is a double-decker station (implemented using Tomix 91043 HB-B), where I intend to run Shinkansen on the upper deck and other trains on the lower deck.

Here are two concept pictures of the rooms but they don't have the colours as I haven't started looking for furniture either. One is this system put down , the other is how it looks when it is raised up.

 

 

Thank you guys so much！

 

[inobu]

Post your Anyrail file as it will be get you up to speed quicker.

 

Inobu

[MeTheSwede]

Welcome to the forum!

 

As far as I can see what you have is simply two doubletrack loops with double crossovers, with a single connection between the two double track loops. There are also some spurs attached at one place. Putting the double track loops next to eachother rather than on top of eachother, to more easily understand what's going on, I've drawn it likes this.

 

 

 

 

You don't need any insulation for this with Tomix Finetrack.

 

 

(EDIT: There are some errors in the following text due to me not fully grasping how the double crossover is isolated. Katem corrects me below.)

 

 

You're going to need one speed controller for each numbered track. It's irrelevant where on the loop the power feeder is attached, as long as it's on the loop.

 

The important thing to understand about the double crossovers is that they are either in what I will call "straight ahead mode" or what I will call "crossing mode". Having it set to straight ahead means you've got two separate tracks in a double track configuration. Having it in crossing mode means you've instead got a long single loop that crosses itself (kind of like a figure eight).

 

When the a double crossover is in crossing mode, you don't want both speed controllers active, because then you've got two speed controllers on the same loop. You can make sure to always remember to turn one off before switching the crossover, or you can do it the fool proof Tomix way and use a Tomix 5536 selector switch box. For the fool proof solution, this is what is needed to control this layout:

 

4 speed controllers

3 Tomix 5532 Points Control Box N-W

3 Tomix 5536 Selector Switch Box   (the more expensive 5533 can also be used)

4 Tomix 5531 Point Control Box N-S   (the more expensive 5532 can also be used)

 

The double crossovers are connected to one 5532 each. The 5532 will be connected to a 5536 each by means of the supplied plastic piece that makes it impossible to switching the lever of one of them without switching the lever of the other. What the 5536 control boxes do is to turn off the electric output from a speed controler.

 

Thus, when the leftside double crossing is set to crossing mode, the power from speed controler 2 gets automatically turned off and speed controler one now controls the long loop that the leftside double track has merged into. Connect up the right double crossing the same way, so that controler 4 gets turned off.

 

For the track connecting the two double track loops, both points should be controlled by the same 5532 point control box. The connecting track is either open for travel, or closed off. This 5532 should also be connected to a 5536, in such a way as when the connecting track is open, speed controler 3 is turned off, thus making speed controler 2 the only active controler on the now joined loops 2 and 3.

 

Finally the 4 5531 point control boxes control the parking spurs.

 

 

I've posted a photo and description of how to hook up a selector switch in one of my early posts in my Yamahama layout thread:

 

 

Use this piece of advice with some caution. I ought to know what I'm talking about, but won't guarantee that I haven't messed up anything.

 

 

EDIT: Some caution was indeed needed. 😅

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by MeTheSwede

[KateM]

There's already some past discussion about 5536 vs 5533. The 5536 was deemed not enough for this use case (unless custom power cables were used). This is because PX280-15 is fully isolated! and 5536 just turns one controller off - its feeder is without power. On the other hand, 5533 allows to route the power from one controller to both inner and outer feeders at the same time.

 

45 minutes ago, MeTheSwede said:

You can make sure to always remember to turn one off before switching the crossover

The simple solution won't work as well because of the fully-isolated PX280-15.

 

In general, the solution proposed by @MeTheSwede is great, just forget about 5536 and go with 5533 to keep it "foolproof" 🙂

Edited March 30, 2023 by katem

[MeTheSwede]

Thanks for the correction!

 

I forgot about the double crossover not letting any power through at any time. I don't own any double crossover, so have no practical experience of those.

 

 

I'll let my former post stand and just edit in a warning that I've been corrected, as that seems like the least confusing option.

 

 

[cteno4]

Welcome Sep, glad you found us. 
 

wow very cool with the lifting mechanism. Please share any info you can on the mechanism, folks have come through here asking about doing things like that. Is it via cables from the ceiling? Commercial mech/structure?

 

one big thing is this is a pretty big and very deep layout and reach for most folks is about 1m max to grab something and much less to do any amount of work with two hands free. Also will the lifting mech allow you to lean against the layout while working on it? It doesn’t look like there is any room around the outside of the layout except at the sofa. Even then it looks like at least a 1m reach in from the middle. If you want to reach past a half a meter you will aLos end up leaning on the side of the layout some, worse as you go deeper. I assume if dropped by cables you could have it drop onto some sort of portable/collapsable supports (simple X of two boards with slots cut halfway up the length make excellent sturdy supports that come apart to store easily) to support the layout so it does not drift around and could be leaned on some if needed. This is something most folks don’t think about much until you have to do time working in things leaning way over. If you have any back problems it’s especially bad. Give it a try on a table and see what you can get away with working for some time at a distance like this for some time (ie not just 2 minutes)

 

you really need about a 30cm corridor to shinny down the side of the layout but if you need to lean in this ends up being more like 40cm as we usually stick our butts out to counterbalance ourselves leaning arms out in front of us so you need some butt room. Also at 30cm you kind need to crab walk sideways along the layout. Again even then you can only really effectively work with both hands for any amount of time for like 75cm in.

 

things tend to get progressively harder to do as you go deeper in later stages of layout building.. Like track laying, electrical, scenery, details. Then you have to have access for eventual rail cleaning, removing derailments, etc

 

could see if you could design in a hatch or two in the center areas to pop up in. These can be hard to engineer in and hard to lift out, put somewhere, and shinny into and also get materials and tools in and out of.

 

making scenery in removable sections is also a trick for rear areas so you can work on them off the layout (keeps all the very messy stuff like glues and paints away from your track!) and the drop them in place. Downside is you have to be able to maneuver them into place around track and such in hard to reach places and also then cover up the seams.

 

another alternative for a layout design would be to have an opening in the middle and have the layout circle you. Would limit the work depth of the layout at most points except the corners.

 

sorry don’t mean to rain on things, it’s just an issue that you only really find out about until you have to work leaning over. When I was young I built a lot of very large 3/4” scale exhibit models for work and really learned what it was like having to work on things up to 2m in—I use to have to hang from the rafters on a trapeze and also a board I would lie down on and be swung into place. Also an old friend was a professional layout builder in O scale and I heard all sorts of stories about these issues on the layouts he created as with O scale you are forced into huge layout depths at times.

 

one big thing is make sure to make your layout base comes apart into a few sections so you can pull this apart to both install and move later if necessary and good track brakes near section joints. Even some extra wire length across section joints if needed to be clipped and rejoined later. Murphy’s law of layouts is as soon as it’s looking nice you will have to move! Using 6cm strips of 5mm ply and cutting slots in the strips half way like every 25cm so you can make a waffle grid 25x25cm (think wine carton inserts) that once glued up makes for a very stiff and light support structure within each section with heavier frame around the outside of sections then. Really only need 5mm ply on the top. Even the outer structure could be good quality 12mm Baltic birch ply as it’s very strong and usually better trueness than most dimensional lumber these days. It’s going to be a big structure and weight can add up fast.

 

one track plan issue is check your grade there in the shinkansen line at the very top as it looks like it rises pretty fast. You really want to shoot for 3% grades if you can and like 4% max or you end up really having to speed/slow trains to get up/down when you go over 3%. 3% grade requires 1.5m to go up to a 5cm rise. Over 4% and you get into this being really silly (starts looking like slot cars) and can start to put heavy ware on trains (big experience with this and one of our former club members with extreme grades and lots of mech repairs needed).
 

cheers,

Jeff

[Sep.]

thanks you all for help that's very useful.

11 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Welcome Sep, glad you found us. 
 

wow very cool with the lifting mechanism. Please share any info you can on the mechanism, folks have come through here asking about doing things like that. Is it via cables from the ceiling? Commercial mech/structure?

 

one big thing is this is a pretty big and very deep layout and reach for most folks is about 1m max to grab something and much less to do any amount of work with two hands free. Also will the lifting mech allow you to lean against the layout while working on it? It doesn’t look like there is any room around the outside of the layout except at the sofa. Even then it looks like at least a 1m reach in from the middle. If you want to reach past a half a meter you will aLos end up leaning on the side of the layout some, worse as you go deeper. I assume if dropped by cables you could have it drop onto some sort of portable/collapsable supports (simple X of two boards with slots cut halfway up the length make excellent sturdy supports that come apart to store easily) to support the layout so it does not drift around and could be leaned on some if needed. This is something most folks don’t think about much until you have to do time working in things leaning way over. If you have any back problems it’s especially bad. Give it a try on a table and see what you can get away with working for some time at a distance like this for some time (ie not just 2 minutes)

 

you really need about a 30cm corridor to shinny down the side of the layout but if you need to lean in this ends up being more like 40cm as we usually stick our butts out to counterbalance ourselves leaning arms out in front of us so you need some butt room. Also at 30cm you kind need to crab walk sideways along the layout. Again even then you can only really effectively work with both hands for any amount of time for like 75cm in.

 

things tend to get progressively harder to do as you go deeper in later stages of layout building.. Like track laying, electrical, scenery, details. Then you have to have access for eventual rail cleaning, removing derailments, etc

 

could see if you could design in a hatch or two in the center areas to pop up in. These can be hard to engineer in and hard to lift out, put somewhere, and shinny into and also get materials and tools in and out of.

 

making scenery in removable sections is also a trick for rear areas so you can work on them off the layout (keeps all the very messy stuff like glues and paints away from your track!) and the drop them in place. Downside is you have to be able to maneuver them into place around track and such in hard to reach places and also then cover up the seams.

 

another alternative for a layout design would be to have an opening in the middle and have the layout circle you. Would limit the work depth of the layout at most points except the corners.

 

sorry don’t mean to rain on things, it’s just an issue that you only really find out about until you have to work leaning over. When I was young I built a lot of very large 3/4” scale exhibit models for work and really learned what it was like having to work on things up to 2m in—I use to have to hang from the rafters on a trapeze and also a board I would lie down on and be swung into place. Also an old friend was a professional layout builder in O scale and I heard all sorts of stories about these issues on the layouts he created as with O scale you are forced into huge layout depths at times.

 

one big thing is make sure to make your layout base comes apart into a few sections so you can pull this apart to both install and move later if necessary and good track brakes near section joints. Even some extra wire length across section joints if needed to be clipped and rejoined later. Murphy’s law of layouts is as soon as it’s looking nice you will have to move! Using 6cm strips of 5mm ply and cutting slots in the strips half way like every 25cm so you can make a waffle grid 25x25cm (think wine carton inserts) that once glued up makes for a very stiff and light support structure within each section with heavier frame around the outside of sections then. Really only need 5mm ply on the top. Even the outer structure could be good quality 12mm Baltic birch ply as it’s very strong and usually better trueness than most dimensional lumber these days. It’s going to be a big structure and weight can add up fast.

 

one track plan issue is check your grade there in the shinkansen line at the very top as it looks like it rises pretty fast. You really want to shoot for 3% grades if you can and like 4% max or you end up really having to speed/slow trains to get up/down when you go over 3%. 3% grade requires 1.5m to go up to a 5cm rise. Over 4% and you get into this being really silly (starts looking like slot cars) and can start to put heavy ware on trains (big experience with this and one of our former club members with extreme grades and lots of mech repairs needed).
 

cheers,

Jeff

The lifting mechanism should be something like this, consisting of pulleys and connecting rods, and they should be easy to find in furniture shops. Holes are cut in the plates and the slings are re-trained through the plates to the crossbars. This system will need to be fixed to the keel of the ceiling or secured using expansion bolts. Make sure your ceiling is strong enough, as mine will have an additional no mains light design, which means I will need to place aluminium lightweight keels in the ceiling. Of course weighing needs to be considered and my current plan is to punch holes in the corners and then use two sets system

It should look something like this, with the possibility of adding an additional X-shaped support later so that they form a single unit. I also intend to use four folding table legs to provide them with stability on the ground. However, given the range of operations you mentioned,  I think both the modularity and the centre opening may be better than my current plan. I'll redesign it later.

 

Thanks again

 

Sep.
 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Sep.