Hi guys just a quick intro Ant from New Zealand

[Antnz]

Jeff

 

Yes thank you for that i was thinking the same thing Jeff, im in a so near but so far situation and wanting to get moving but yes it needs some thought. I will however throw this at you i sat out there for a while and draw this up what do you think. Its sort of central and i can get to both sides and keep an eye on the sections with the most movement.

I had the wiring in mind as i was wanting to keep the wiring as close to the control panels from there turnout points as i could i have in my head that the length of these wires should be kept in mind ??

Yes i still haven't got a handle on the Block sections or the wiring. But i will get some droppers in and get things tidy and get some trains running.

I have plenty of wire as you saw, 18G and 20G, you said your recommendation would be 20g for the droppers feeder wires as i have plenty would you recommend i use that instead of the 22g that i also have ??

 

Ive also just ordered some insulating track connectors glad i did there as scarce as hens teeth, i have 4 packets of 20 connectors coming i hope that's enough i can see them getting used a lot in the yards

 

Cheers again Jeff

 

Tony

 

[cteno4]

Tony, 

 

How much of the track have you set out and tested yet on a temporary basis? It’s good to try this just to see if there are any changes you want to make to the plan. This is how you might best see where you want to run the rr from, in one location or in a few. 

 

Its really feeling like maybe a master control panel over in front of the larger lower yard that runs that yard system and the main line blocks all around the layout may be best as its the most complicated and having it right in front of the area you are working at doing switching may be easiest. Then a secondary control panel in front of the upper smaller yard to deal with those sidings when working on them. You probably want one of your two control panels to have control of the whole main line so you dont have to go between two control panels for all your power routing. Of course you may need to check the point positions off the whole main line when you are starting a train running out on the main line loops.

 

Having the control panels both on one side may make it hard to look at the control panels on one side then flip around to view what you are doing on the layout. I think if you have the control panel on one side it would be better to have one control panel with it all on there rather than two next to each other. Will make for a big control panel to wire, but may be easier to visualize if all in one place for the whole layout. But im thinking the one for the mainlines and the big yards and second for the smaller yard would be the easiest.

 

also hopefully having a walk around throttles eventually would also be a big help as trying to operate over your shoulder with a throttle located on one side of the layout while operating on the yard behind you will be hard. Also will be at a distance and hard to see if cars are coupled or decoupled over magnets etc. Good news is i just ordered a few wireless remote control Pwm power supplies to play with to see if they could be adapted for running a layout like this. I’m curious to see if we could do our ttrak setup like this as throttle position is always a PITA for us with rectangular layouts and it’s always something that needs to be hidden but also accessed. But to begin with you can just use your current throttles in a fixed location.

 

Even as a kid 50 years back on my first layout i was so happy when i got a walk around wired throttle on my little 3.5’x7.5’ layout as being able to be anywhere i wanted around the small layout really was fun than always being stuck at one point where the stationary throttle was and much easier when working in some of the sidings and yards that were a bit farther away from the throttle. With your big oval i can see it being very handy. Wireless of course is great as no cord to hassle with but even wired its nice to be able to fiddle up close quickly on a siding or yard.

 

Ill take a stab at the block diagram this weekend for you to then mentally noodle with on how you were thinking of operating the layout so you can do som mental operations to see if the design works how you want to operate. Should not be too hard as point power routing can help some of central blocks of points in your yards to one block, and then each siding and yard stub be a block. You can have a whole yard ladder on one block and just use point power routing on it if you want to decrease the number of block switches on the control panel. Your yard ladders are so all enough if you just feed the whole yard just before the ladder you can let the point power routing takes care of feeding only one ladder siding at a time. Yard ladders are where it can get really tight in control panels with switches and wiring space so may be best to do this. 

 

Cheers

 

jeff

[Antnz]

Jeff

Thank you again for your help and advice.

I have temporarily wired the track with the Tomix wire i have, my first few goes didn't go well and the locos stopped and started and would refuse to go through the turnouts,  but i soon found adding more feeders around the layout gradually improved things, my steam engines are all second hand and some better than others i was about to start blaming them but i can see its all about the wiring and looking forward to getting it wired up properly, i have set my two speed controls in the area we looked at but will keep practicing for a while. I have found some of my old engines are running on the sleeper rails i had a feeling that would happen, i may have to save for some new ones. I will wire up some of the turnouts and play for a while, but wanted to let you know i am following your advice Jeff.

Thank you for looking at my Block sections and control panel areas i look forward to seeing what you come up with, its very good of you to take your time doing this, i just don't have the experience you do and im shore id get into a mess or hash it up. I can see a that a control panel on one side would work better than on both sides already with less turning around, luckily both sides are very close together.

 

Tony

[Antnz]

While looking at my plan while looking at positions for my controllers just out of interest i flipped the whole layout completely around and it seems to work well, the controllers are more central and now in front of the shunting area and i am also closer to the other station at the bottom of the plan.

My only concern would be shifting every peace of this jigsaw puzzle and putting it back together not knowing what each peace is, i could break it down into sections carefully do you think it would be worth it ?? how does it look to you guy's ??

[UnfinishedKit]

Take a look at how susukuma does it. He distributes his control panels and power packs. If I’m understanding correctly he’s using the rotary switches on his controller panels to select which power packs (of many is attached to which track section. You don’t need the power pack to be together but it would be useful to have them in front of you at the stations and yards. 
 

 

 

 

he’s also got good instructional videos on making control panels. 
 

 

 

 

[Antnz]

UnfinishedKit

 

WOW thanks for that, you must do a lot of searching to find this stuff, that's perfect thank you, that's nearly exactly the same layout type as mine.

 

Cheers

 

Tony

[cteno4]

Tony

 

I wouldn’t suggest at this point you try to flip the layout itself as it’s all set up now, seems like too much work. Newer plan doesn’t look better to me on a quick glance. You spent some time on that plan so it probably was a good compromise on a lot of things your were wanting and you may be mucking that up some now just for sake of where to put the control panels.

 

I would suggest just flipping the main control panel on the original plan to in front of you main yard area where you would probably be pulling out larger trains from and assembling them. Then a small secondary for the engine and coal yards. Is there a reason not to put the control panel in front of the larger yard area? Seems like where you will be fiddling the most and mainline stuff the most. Smaller shunting in the engine and coal yard on the other side coud have a nice small panel just to control those sidings to play with moving engines around. Just feels like the best to carve off and put on the other side of the layout. Again I think you may really want to eventually have walk around throttles so you can easily do stuff on both sides of the layout as well as turn in your chair. Putting all the panels and throttle in one spot is going to make it hard to see other parts not right in front of the panel to play on remotely from the central panel.

 

i think you wnat ot keep your main control panel away from your lift out section as the main control panel and throttles will take up some of your space and you need room there to lift the module in and out easily and move around. 

 

You can see from the above videos how crazy a big control panel can get and why distributing it some can help from it not getting massive. Also why using point power routing in some situations for small sidings and yard ladders can really help cut down on control panel switch clutter. Also why i like smaller dpdt switches as they can pack more densly for bother wiring and getting access to to flip them. You can also get little vinyl booties for toggle switches in different colors so you can easily color code for switches, mainline and sidings to help make it easier to glance at to say make sure you set up all the mainline power blocks and the points then along the way.

 

Rotary switches can get you multiple power packs but they do end up increasing your wiring complexity/density as well as they cost like $3 each for a 3 or 4 pole rotary switch and take up a fair amount of room under the control panel as well as space needed to grab a knob to throw. Harder to visually glance and see what throttle is selected than a toggle switch. Rotary switches are a bit of a mind twister when wiring them up, not as straight forward as a dpdt, just takes some knoodling and testing to get it down then follow the pattern with others, but it can get to be a jungle of wiring. Unfortunately the more small, compact rotary switches are pretty low current limits for a throttle.

 

Rotary switches would let you have like 3 throttles then that you could have two running trains on your two mainlines and a third for shunting. But some of your shunting requires use of the mainline so could be difficult using it while another train is running on the mainline. Again you need to do some thinking on what operations you want to be doing with the layout. You can try to think some of this thru playing with your temporary setup and trying to at least run the throttle on some sidings on the opposite side of the layout from where the throttles are. You will have to do the points manually but put that aside as those will be remotely done and you wont have to keep reaching back to throw those, its more the running a train in yards at a distance with the throttle and sort of over your shoulder. Again try to play with this some on your temp set up here, you will learn a lot that way as opposed to just trying to do it all in your head.

 

you can see why folks love dcc as it gets rid of most all of this knot, but then it comes with another pile of knots to do dcc.

 

These are great videos to see how to lay out a control panel diagram and switches. Again i like the smaller switches as they take up less room on top of your diagram so it can be svelter and not too big and clunky. One thing i would not do that he did is use natural wood for the control panel base. Usually im the big champion on using naturally finished wood around layout frames, but in this case its a place were you want nice high contrast between your diagram lines and the background. Here the back ground wood grain is very distracting and the muddled brown/gray finish with black wood pores ends up muddling the contrast of the diagram and putting more visual elements in when you have all the switches and the diagram to visually deal with. This can also make painting it a lot easier as you just paint the control panel the color you want the diagram [ie white] and lay out your diagram with tape then paint the whole thing the color you want the back groups and remove the tape. Also best to use some material that has a nice smooth surface, again keeps it visually clean and no texture distraction. New elements then on the diagram cna then be painted or drawn on individually later if needed.

 

if you control panel is feeling a bit cramped visually you can always think of enlarging it a little and just have it hinge up and down so you can always hinge it down vertically when working on the layout. Ive seen some folks keep an extra foot or two of wire on their control panels to let them putt it off and hang it under the layout totally out of the way or put it on their lap. 

 

Cheers

 

jeff

[Antnz]

Jeff

 

Thank you again, im so glad you've said not to bother turning the layout around it was scaring me some. Ive printed your last two reply's out and will re read everything fully to absorb it. I quite like the white perspex control panels Ive seen on YouTube and elsewhere  and as you say its all about seeing clearly and quickly what switches to flick. I think i was drawn to the top part of the layout for my control panel because it is the deeper of the benches whereas the one with the bigger yard is not as deep, but everything is fixable and a hinged panel will sort it out im shore. I do like the toggle switches as well i can see the speed aspect being good as well as the ease of wiring them and yes i just like the look of them old fashioned i guise.

Yes i will keep playing with the setup as is at the moment, im struggling to get my double cross overs to work and i can see if id started gluing and wiring everything up id be in a hell of a mess.

 

Cheers again and thank you

 

Tony

[Antnz]

Fixed the double turnout issue's, i was only firing up one track and needed to have both tracks fired up with each controller and  the same polarity and speed setting for each they are know working perfectly. So simple when you know how LOL my lack of experience is showing.

[cteno4]

Tony,

 

hey try cutting up some chunks of card board at a few potential control panel sized and tape onto the edge [cut down some shipping boxes] so you can get a feel for what space it takes up physically with your stool and such. Will help get a max size [mainly how far it can stick out] you can build to.

 

yes that white or black Perspex makes very nice control panel material.

 

Yep, you have to supply power to all sides of a double cross over as they dont route power all the way thru on any of the paths. Not like regular points.

 

I would work on getting al the track out and play with it a bit. You can use pins to hold the track down where needed. Don’t start gluing until you have everything sussed out on the layout design and wiring. 

 

jeff

[Antnz]

Jeff

 

Good idea Jeff yes i will mock up some boxes and put my speed controllers into position and sit and play for a while, i do in fact have the whole layout  clipped together except for the bridge section which isn't wired up yet, i have some weights and blocks of wood guarding the chasm so we don't have any nose dives over the edge. Yep trial and error sorted the double cross overs. Yep i used pins for the whole layout and went round the whole lot with a felt tip pen so when i do start gluing hopefully it will all go back into position, yes a small section at a time i don't want to get this puzzle messed up lol.

The photo's will show where im at but yes i will keep playing for a while. The bridge section is shown it slides under the bench nicely, my two controllers in roughly there new position but will have to be fixed at an angle on the face of the layout hinged probably, one showing the bridge section chasm. 

[Antnz]

Jeff

 

Ive just found out why you keep telling me to check and double check Jeff, ive just printed out some Metcalfe building layout plans and i have no room to fit the stations in between the lay by station track and the track that goes around the stations to the store depot's its a good job your here, i think i will slow down a bit now LOL

Thank you for saving me yet again LOL

 

Tony