Track capacity

[Robsr]

 

im thinking of making a layout of around 10-12ft x 4ft or 8ft x 6ft with five sections. 
1) an inverse figure of 8 double track around the outside with 2 passing loops I can run long trains 

2) a cityscape scene with trams

3) a motive power depot / tram depot 

4) a rural area served by trams coming from the city, a bit like Blackpool and Fleetwood.

5) a station / passenger interchange where trams and trains meet.

My question is how many trams can be powered on one circuit as I was led to believe 40 years ago it was 1 track, 1 train yet I see circuits with several teams on. 
the reason I’m asking is that I’m thinking of using Kato tram plates but leaving off one rail and coming back onto the other after going in one big loop instead of running two tracks side by side in opposite directions.

Thanks

 

[cteno4]

You could power several on the same track, but they will eventually catch up to each other on a loop as they will have different speeds even using the same track voltage.

 

rich might have some ideas as his tram club has done some interesting things running multiple trams on one track.

 

just make sure on the layout width you don’t go too deep. You can comfortably work leaning in about 2’ and maybe stretch to 3’ for a very short bit. 4’ wide is fine if you can get access all around the layout.

 

jeff

[Robsr]

Thanks Jeff. I’ll be able to get all around the layout so access won’t be a problem.

I’d be running the same trams on the loop so in theory they should stay separated.

The idea I’ve got is for a circuit in the city and one in the rural area that are linked so they can be ran as two circuits or one continuous loop.

I’ve got ideas in my head but I need to lay my frack out to see what I’ve got in order to work out the sizes, shapes and spaces from each other. 

[Cat]

If you can fit chips in your trams, DCC offers the ability to operate more than one at a time for independent control and also for synchronising speed settings.

[cteno4]

Well even two of the same trams the same age will always end up running a bit different speed so eventually one will catch-up with the other, they will never be perfectly speed matched.

 

rich k on the group is a member of a tram club that did some very interesting circuits that had a loop broken in blocks and occupancy detectors via current draw on each block. A tram on a block was stopped on the current block if the next block was occupied and once block ahead was clear it was allowed to proceed.

 

I saw an interesting loop that had a dead block at a stations so trams would end up pausing at the stations. There was I think an optical sensor on each and when they were all occupied they were all allowed to proceed. This let the stations be different distances apart and trams that had different running speeds at the same voltage be used together as all were reset at each station.

 

you could make this manually by just isolating a piece of track at each station. Then run equal number of trams to stations. Once all the trams are stopped at a station then just have a momentary switch to push to energize the station tracks and all the trams take off to the next station. You could automate the pause with a photosensor at the furthest station (the one with the longest track to it) and program an arduino to wait like 20 seconds then power up the station tracks for 10seconds to start the trams going and then jsut wait for the next tram to hit that sensor.

 

it’s too bad the old ru21 reversing circuit is out of production as it allowed great point to point reversing tram runs with stops at up to 10 stations. It used simple photo resistors that only required some room like to operate.

 

jeff

[Cat]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

Well even two of the same trams the same age will always end up running a bit different speed so eventually one will catch-up with the other, they will never be perfectly speed matched.

I thought with DCC you could closely synchronise the speeds for consisting so they wouldn't be pushing/pulling against each other at different speeds when coupled together.  One command can operate all the engines in a consist, so for not coupled together trams, you would want the stops equally spaced for simultaneous throttle control.

[cteno4]

Yes you can try to speed match with dcc to reduce over pull on multiple engine pulls, but with a free running trolly not having anything pulled i would expect to get it perfectly speed matched and probably change with time.

 

jeff

[Robsr]

18 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Well even two of the same trams the same age will always end up running a bit different speed so eventually one will catch-up with the other, they will never be perfectly speed matched.

 

rich k on the group is a member of a tram club that did some very interesting circuits that had a loop broken in blocks and occupancy detectors via current draw on each block. A tram on a block was stopped on the current block if the next block was occupied and once block ahead was clear it was allowed to proceed.

 

I saw an interesting loop that had a dead block at a stations so trams would end up pausing at the stations. There was I think an optical sensor on each and when they were all occupied they were all allowed to proceed. This let the stations be different distances apart and trams that had different running speeds at the same voltage be used together as all were reset at each station.

 

you could make this manually by just isolating a piece of track at each station. Then run equal number of trams to stations. Once all the trams are stopped at a station then just have a momentary switch to push to energize the station tracks and all the trams take off to the next station. You could automate the pause with a photosensor at the furthest station (the one with the longest track to it) and program an arduino to wait like 20 seconds then power up the station tracks for 10seconds to start the trams going and then jsut wait for the next tram to hit that sensor.

 

it’s too bad the old ru21 reversing circuit is out of production as it allowed great point to point reversing tram runs with stops at up to 10 stations. It used simple photo resistors that only required some room like to operate.

 

jeff

Thanks for that Jeff. I’ll look into that as I saw something similar years ago with isolator rails at each station that were all connected and switched on or off simultaneously 

[Robsr]

21 hours ago, Cat said:

If you can fit chips in your trams, DCC offers the ability to operate more than one at a time for independent control and also for synchronising speed settings.

I’ll be using analogue control but thanks though. 

[cteno4]

5 hours ago, Robsr said:

Thanks for that Jeff. I’ll look into that as I saw something similar years ago with isolator rails at each station that were all connected and switched on or off simultaneously 

Yep that’s the idea. Once all the trams are stopped on isolated tracks in stations you power all the station tracks momentarily to get the trams out of the station and on the mainline powered track.

 

This simple technique is used in model rr exhibits to not have trains running continuously. User walks up and pushes a button and train takes off from station. Gives the user some fun interaction as well.

 

jeff

[brill27mcb]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:45 PM, cteno4 said:

Well even two of the same trams the same age will always end up running a bit different speed so eventually one will catch-up with the other, they will never be perfectly speed matched.

 

rich k on the group is a member of a tram club that did some very interesting circuits that had a loop broken in blocks and occupancy detectors via current draw on each block. A tram on a block was stopped on the current block if the next block was occupied and once block ahead was clear it was allowed to proceed.

 

I saw an interesting loop that had a dead block at a stations so trams would end up pausing at the stations. There was I think an optical sensor on each and when they were all occupied they were all allowed to proceed. This let the stations be different distances apart and trams that had different running speeds at the same voltage be used together as all were reset at each station.

 

you could make this manually by just isolating a piece of track at each station. Then run equal number of trams to stations. Once all the trams are stopped at a station then just have a momentary switch to push to energize the station tracks and all the trams take off to the next station. You could automate the pause with a photosensor at the furthest station (the one with the longest track to it) and program an arduino to wait like 20 seconds then power up the station tracks for 10seconds to start the trams going and then jsut wait for the next tram to hit that sensor.

 

it’s too bad the old ru21 reversing circuit is out of production as it allowed great point to point reversing tram runs with stops at up to 10 stations. It used simple photo resistors that only required some room like to operate.

 

jeff

 

Sorry for the delay. Here is my basic manual control box for the EasyTrolley/EasyTram concept. I use Tomix track for my trolleys (generally), so it is based on a Tomix 5812 "Y"-shaped splitter DC Feeder Cable. I simply add to each leg of it (each of which goes to a isolated half-layout "block") a double-pole double-throw center-off toggle switch, mounted sideways so that the position the toggle handle is pointing indicates the chosen direction of travel. So it's forward-off-reverse, but "forward" depends on whether you choose to operate keeping to the right (like America and Europe) or left (like Japan and Britain) side. The near (lower) toggle switch output cable gets attached to the track nearer to your operating position, and the far (upper) toggle switch cable to the track farther away from you. The layout can be shaped like an oval, or like a two-lane road with tram tracks and turn-around loops at each end, or even a two-track point-to-point operation.

 

Here's the inside, showing the exact wiring. You just need to be able to drill four holes in a project enclosure box and cut/solder some wires to the toggle switches.

 

Electrically isolate the "near" (lower) and "far" (upper) halves of your track with insulated rail joiners and use a separate track feeder fed from the appropriate output cable coming from this box. Then you can stop a tram (or train) anywhere on the layout, not just in a "stop section." You can then run two, maybe even three, trams at a time from one power supply, although you will soon feel like an overloaded air traffic controller.

 

If you build two of these control boxes and feed them using an additional unmodified "Y" feeder cable, and add more insulated rail joiners, you can divide your layout into four separately-fed quadrants (near left, far left, far right and near right). Place one control box on each side of your power pack to keep them straight in your mind. Then you can easily run 3 trams at a time.

 

By placing the track feeders and insulators carefully, you can stop a tram in a block using the toggle switch, reverse power in just that block (while the other trams continue to run), throw a track turnout and reverse the stopped tram into a siding or yard. I use manual turnouts which have power routing, so throwing the turnout powers the siding and at the same time stops any following tram that tries to enter the block. Park the tram, move the toggle switch to the center-off position, throw one of more storage yard turnouts to energize a different siding, move the toggle all the way to forward and then run another tram out of the yard and onto the layout. It's pretty easy to swap trams into and out of service in this way, while keeping the rest of the layout running.

 

For Kato track and power packs, use two Unitrack 24-825 DC Extension Cables to make each control box. You will use the "power supply end" of one cable and the "track end" of both cables to make the "Y". If you make two control boxes, power them through the Unitrack 24-827 3-Way Extension Cable.

 

The other systems Jeff mentioned are much more electronically complicated. I have run many different train and tram layouts using two of these EasyTram control boxes for over 10 years now, and it's fun. Look over the photos at www.trainweb.org/tomix/et-pics/ and you will spot these control boxes in use. Once you build them, it's simply plug-and-play.

 

Rich K.

Edited March 12, 2023 by brill27mcb

[Robsr]

Thanks Rich. They look simple to construct and easy to use in a modular system. 
Thanks for the link too. My motive power / tram depot will be similar to that in the link so it’s given me a bit of an idea of how it will look. 
Scribbled drawings on bits of paper mean much more when you can see something similar for referencing. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Robsr