Sumida Crossing

[disturbman]

Ken... I'm missing something here.

 

You metro line should (be lets say) the level 0 of your layout. Then your elevated station should be at +2 or here, you showed us a metro line at 0 and a elevated station at +1. Where is the ground? Because withtout it you can't have above and underground rail lines. Or I missed something on your layout plan.

[KenS]

Ken... I'm missing something here.

 

You metro line should (be lets say) the level 0 of your layout. Then your elevated station should be at +2 or here, you showed us a metro line at 0 and a elevated station at +1. Where is the ground? Because withtout it you can't have above and underground rail lines. Or I missed something on your layout plan.

 

The track plan up above shows the original plan, which had the urban station "ground" 2 inches above the subway tracks (level +1 in your terminology), and the viaduct tracks two inches above that (level +2). I haven't updated the track plan, but what I'm presently thinking about (mentioned briefly in an earlier posting) is changing this scene to bring the subway "above ground" by lowering the ground to the level of the subway tracks (level 0). So the viaduct tracks would be roughly 2 inches above the subway tracks, rather than four inches.

 

With that change the "subway" would be surface level here, and would enter a tunnel at the end near the bridges (likely just before it begins to curve to avoid the river). From there it would be an underground line past the river and through the "riverside station" scene on the other side of the divider.

 

These photos show the mock up of how that would look. I really need to finish updating the track plan.

[CaptOblivious]

The S-Curve will pose no problem. It's very broad, by Japanese standards, and the expanding close-couplers on the commuter trains will actually help, rather than hinder progress across them. So you're fine.

[disturbman]

The track plan up above shows the original plan, which had the urban station "ground" 2 inches above the subway tracks (level +1 in your terminology), and the viaduct tracks two inches above that (level +2). I haven't updated the track plan, but what I'm presently thinking about (mentioned briefly in an earlier posting) is changing this scene to bring the subway "above ground" by lowering the ground to the level of the subway tracks (level 0). So the viaduct tracks would be roughly 2 inches above the subway tracks, rather than four inches.

 

With that change the "subway" would be surface level here, and would enter a tunnel at the end near the bridges (likely just before it begins to curve to avoid the river). From there it would be an underground line past the river and through the "riverside station" scene on the other side of the divider.

 

So indeed, I missed something here. I read the all thread but with all the projects going along I just kept your plan in mind. The idea is interesting and I think you can find other piers or one that could help you accomodate the metro line under the elevated ones. I saw such things a lot in japanese model railroad videos a lot. Maybe with pillar instead of those four legs things. You could also manufacture very easily your own supports pillars or structures. Think about metro stations a bit heavy with concrete but that could the trick for you.

 

I'll be curious to see what you'll come up with. :)

[Mudkip Orange]

does anyone think the 315/348 s-curve is going to be a problem?

JDM trains are a LOT more tolerant of S-curves than US market stuff, even within manufacturers. All things considered, a Kato EF58 with Rapidos is going to give you less trouble then a Kato GG-1 with Micro-Trains.

 

Especially considering that the S-curve is on a *dedicated commuter* line (i.e. no Shinkansen), I don't forsee any problems whatsoever.

[David]

JDM trains are a LOT more tolerant of S-curves than US market stuff, even within manufacturers. All things considered, a Kato EF58 with Rapidos is going to give you less trouble then a Kato GG-1 with Micro-Trains.

 

 

Agreed. Body mounted micro-trains derail on anything resembling an s-curve. Anything. Given all the difficulties with automatic coupling not being automatic oncurves (and often even on straights because the couplers are out of alignment from a previous uncoupling), to say little of "automatic" uncoupling and the assorted problems with micro-trains compatible couplers being wildly out of gauge, it's been a breath of fresh air going back to rapidos couplers. They're square, but they actually work out of the box.

[KenS]

Just FYI, my series 500 Shinkansen can negotiate the s-curve okay at low speeds, but at the 3/4 setting on the Kato power pack (what I'd use for a high-speed train running through the station) it derails the car behind the motor car. I'm guessing the heavy motor car follows the track in a sudden shift and yanks the following car sideways.

 

As it is a line that I don't plan to run Shinkansen on except for moves to/from the staging tracks, that probably means I'm okay, since the E233 doesn't have a similar problem at speed. Hopefully I won't find a Limited Express train that has this problem. At worst I'll have a real-life "speed restriction" on the entrance to the station. 

 

The Shinkansen does handle the "almost an s-curve" (two R481 curves with a 45mm straight between them) of the Shinkansen line station okay, even at speed.

 

This gives me 11 inches between the station and the backdrop, which is just enough for two rows of buildings facing each other across a moderate-size street, or a street adjacent to the back of the station and a two-deep set of buildings at the rear. So I think I'm going to go with that track arrangement.

 

I'm still debating if I want a 16-car platform for the Shinkansen, as shown on the track plan. I'd really like one, but it may be too long to look good given the space I have.  I actually don't have enough viaduct station expansion sets to mock it up without taking apart some of the commuter platform, as my original plans had called for an 8-car platform.  It seems wrong to have the Shinkansen platform shorter than the 11-car commuter platform. Maybe I'll compromise at 12. 

[Mudkip Orange]

which is just enough for two rows of buildings facing each other across a moderate-size street

 

No matter what, if you're Anglo, you're going to make your street too wide on the first try. Japanese streets are NARROW. For instance, check out this commercial street right near Seibu-Shinjuku. It's only 15 feet wide. That's 30mm, or 1.2 inches - less than a single Kato track spacing.

 

Or check this residential area just up the JR Freight line from Hama-Kawasaki station. Many of the houses front little alleys that aren't even wide enough to drive a Kei car through, let alone an SUV. You can compare the scale to the freeway next door.

[bill937ca]

which is just enough for two rows of buildings facing each other across a moderate-size street

 

No matter what, if you're Anglo, you're going to make your street too wide on the first try. Japanese streets are NARROW. For instance, check out this commercial street right near Seibu-Shinjuku. It's only 15 feet wide. That's 30mm, or 1.2 inches - less than a single Kato track spacing.

 

 

Japanese streets are generally the width of a wide North American sidewalk. Many have no lane markings at all and most streets do not have sidewalks.

 

http://mikkagashi.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/06/post-0a73.html

 

http://mikkagashi.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/11/post.html

 

http://mikkagashi.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/05/post-bb1f.html

 

http://mikkagashi.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/04/post-5d8f.html

 

http://mikkagashi.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/03/post-abc8.html

[CaptOblivious]

Ken, about the S-curve:

 

I wonder, even if it's not a problem, if you could rework the station throat to get rid of the s-curve, by eliminating the symmetry. Have a look at the image. I know these aren't the same track parts you're using, but the idea is the same.

[disturbman]

It looks good Don, a tad more flowing and natural.

[KenS]

I wonder, even if it's not a problem, if you could rework the station throat to get rid of the s-curve, by eliminating the symmetry. 

 

Nice thought, and I like the flowing curves.  But I can't come up with a version that (a), has proper spacing for the platforms, (b), will match up with the curves at both ends (one of which is constrained by the presence of the double-slip between the inner and outer loops), and ©, will fit on a three-wide Viaduct platform (307mm).  I'll probably try a few more variations before I admit defeat, but I'm thinking I'll need to learn to love the s-curve.

 

And I really want to use the three-wide platform rather than a four-wide.  Not only does it give me space for a larger street, but with only about 8 inches of space to the backdrop the wider platform makes it hard to even see street level. 

 

And while many Tokyo streets are microscopic (and I plan to model those in the residential area), I'm presently aiming to make this section look like some of the larger multilane commercial avenues you find in front of stations (e.g., Keiyo road in front of Kinshicho station), although likely two lanes each way rather than three or four.

 

Once I settle the track plan, I'll place a few buildings and take a photo or two to show what I'm trying to do.

[KenS]

Well, I did get the "flowing curves" to work, although I had to cheat a little.

 

What I did (see diagram) is put R481 curves (mostly) with #6 switches, with one R718.  This caused the separation on the front commuter tracks to be 60mm instead of 66mm. The platform pushes the two apart to the correct separation, and the Unitrack has enough flex that this works fairly well. Similarly, the back commuter tracks are 72mm apart, but again there's sufficient flex that the 6mm error isn't really noticeable. This wouldn't fit on the overhead platform without a fourth segment, except that pulling the rear track forward 6mm to meet the platform is just enough to make it work.

 

The rear track does have a tendency to want to slide back against the wall, so I may have to glue it in place or something for reliability purposes. But it looks like I have a solution that looks better than the s-curve, and my Series 500 navigates the curvy rear track at quite a high speed without problems.

 

The end of the platforms away from the bridges is a bit of a mess. I really don't like extending the tracks about two feet before bringing them back together.  So I may try to come up with a slightly different track arrangement at that end. And, as can be seen in the diagram, there are a couple of gaps I need to deal with, but that's a minor problem.

 

This will force me to go with the 12-car Shinkansen platform rather than a full 16-car platform; there's just no room for both the long platform and gentle curves for the rear tracks. But I was leaning in that direction anyway, and the only Shinkansen I own today is an 8-car set (so now I only need one expansion, not two; money saved!  )

 

Thanks for the suggestion, Capt. O., I like this a lot more than the s-curve.

[CaptOblivious]

Great, I'm glad you found a way to make that work out! And it looks good too. I bet you could still fit a full-length shinkansen platform in there too…

[KenS]

I think I've solved my "how to get to the subway/helix" track layout problem.  As you may know, I'd tried (on paper) several arrangements to get down from the commuter line at what I call the "riverside station", and none of them worked without looking like I'd need to get creative with flex track, something I'd really prefer to avoid. And, I couldn't get both of the descending tracks to connect to both subway and helix, so I was going to have to run trains the "wrong way" on the visible station tracks on some movements, which was really getting on my nerves.

 

So the other day I started playing with unitrack full-size on the layout table, trying to see what would work in practice, as opposed to what Rail Modeler thought would work.  There's enough give in how Kato track connects that a long run can diverge pretty far from a straight line.

 

So here's the solution. As you can see, RM doesn't think things quite line up, but in practice they do.  The two blue lines descend, while the yellow (commuter) line climbs as you move left to right (all grades are 2%).  At the bridge, a concrete tunnel entrance for the blue track, and a painted viewblock below the bridge will ultimately hide the mess of track behind the bridge from sight. The crossing (a 15-degree "Left") and some 64mm straights connect the up (front blue) line to the outer (climbing) arc of the helix, while the switch in front of the bridge connects it to the subway.  Behind the bridge, the down (rear blue) line connects to the inner (descending) arc of the helix and to the subway.  All switches are #6, all curves other than the helix are R718.

 

On the subway itself (not shown since it's under the green "Shinkansen/Rapid" loop) both blue lines connect to the inner arc of the subway, since there's no way to cross to the outer in that limited space.  The subway has a crossover at the right side of the curve (below the green/yellow crossover), so wrong-way running will be limited, and will occur on the hidden portion of the line.

 

If you look closely at the track plan you'll also notice I'm doing something a bit odd with the platform tracks.  The rear track uses the usual 64mm spacer at the switch, to bring it out to fit a 41mm standard platform size.  But the front track actually uses a 124mm track, making a larger gap between the front blue track and the center tracks.  Since these are on different levels, I'll need to scratch-build or kitbash the platform anyway, and this gives me more room to work with where the platform is visible (I'll cheat on hidden portion of the rear platform to make the top part look good).  It also was needed to make the tracks under the bridge come together.  One last note, the rear blue track actually starts curving forward a bit before the curved track and will be shorter than a 10-car train as far as a platform goes, but that's hidden behind the raised center track, so I don't care.

 

Track plan: the bold +/- numbers are elevation above "river" level in inches (+0.75 is subway level, +2.75 is the nominal "ground" level in this scene). The fainter +/- numbers along some track are Rail Modeler's elevation in mm, which isn't quite correct (I'm still struggling with grades in RM; one of it's problems is that is can't/won't apply a grade to a switch, crossover, or Kato double-track; I can see the logic on the first two, although I will have a switch or two on a grade, but the double-track limitation is just annoying).

 

Photo 1: the view of the front of the bridge, with the low-level bridge across the visible portion of the river into the subway. You can see how both lines tie into the inner subway loop in this photo.

 

Photo 2: what's hiding behind the bridge. Note that they pink foam below this track is temporary for testing purposes.  The eventual structure there will be plywood.

 

Photo 3: an overview of the Riverside Station, with a 10-car Sobu train for scale.

 

Photo 4: a side view of same, showing the Shinkansen line above the subway line (eventually a real "ground" will be there, and a fascia with cutouts for viewing the station platform will be in front of the lower track).

[SubwayHypes]

yo awesome track plan and i cant wait to see pictures once you finally get this down.

 

i also want a nice double decker layout with subway metro and commuters too,  i used the WW risers as well.  check out my layout and see what i did.  im rebuilding it from the ground up and i still want to implement my ideas.  i want a nice underground train storage yard and hopefully a little lighted underground station would be nice too.

[qwertyaardvark]

Very interesting layout indeed... I think it only just occurred to me exactly how ur layout track plan was gonna pan out! Definitely interested how the station platforms on this side will turn out. A station on top of another station on a grade plus a waterside view~ And all those risers! Also can't wait to see shinkansen running along that long straight stretch there~ 

 

As far as RM goes....

In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.

[Mudkip Orange]

Does the Kato doubletrack truss have some kind of snap-in piece that lets you build a double length (496mm) bridge, or did you kitbash it?

[KenS]

i also want a nice double decker layout with subway metro and commuters too,  i used the WW risers as well.  check out my layout and see what i did.   

 

Actually, your thread last summer (back when I was lurking on this board) was one of the things that inspired me to design my layout to incorporate a subway. And although I'd already been familiar with Ochanomizu Station, the photo posted to your thread helped convince me that I wanted to pattern one of my scenes after it. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with the new version.

 

One of my big regrets with this layout was not being able to include a topside yard for the passenger trains. The lower-level storage I'm going with seems like it will be useful, and it should help keep the dust off the trains, but it won't have the same visual appeal.

 

Does the Kato doubletrack truss have some kind of snap-in piece that lets you build a double length (496mm) bridge, or did you kitbash it?

 

Each bridge comes with a snap-in top section (about 2 inches square) that makes it look like a continuous bridge. It's not limited to just double-length, you could keep extending it.  At one time I thought about making a bridge three or four segments long, but it took up too much space I wanted to use for other features.

 

@qwertyaardvark: I'm looking forward to seeing my series 500 blasting down that track too.  Unfortunately it's the only Shinkansen I own, so I guess I need to acquire a second bullet train one of these days...so many trains, so little money. 

[Mudkip Orange]

I guess I need to acquire a second bullet train one of these days...

 

get the kyushu train. put pikachu decals on it.

[KenS]

My first subway train, a Greenmax "completed model" Tokyo Metro Series 10000, arrived today from Hobby Search via EMS; just eight days after I ordered it (I also bought the 6-car expansion set, to give me a 10-car train).  As I type, it's running in on the "subway" track, something I do for each new train to break it in and make sure there aren't any early failures.

 

It's a very nice model, despite the truck-mounted Rapido couplers. The detail seems on a par with my Kato's, except for a lack of interior detail (the Kato's generally have some molded seats).  The motor is a bit noisy, but that could be because it hasn't worn in the gears yet.

 

Here's a photo of it posed below a Sobu 205 train.

[disturbman]

Nice (I'm getting tired of saying that  ). Maybe you could shoot a video of those trains running on a fast bare layout. 

[KenS]

At the moment the track is inoperable, while I get serious about carving/gluing the upper layer of foam down. But once I have something I think is worth looking at (more complete than bare pink foam, but nowhere near final) a video or two is a distinct possibility.

 

How hard can it be?   

[KenS]

Well, less was accomplished this weekend than I'd hoped (what else is new?), but I feel like I'm making progress.  The goal for the weekend was to finish the topography of the "River Crossing" scene where a small residential/commercial neighborhood I'm calling "the village" nestles inside the four-track curve.  That meant cutting and carving foam, gluing it down, applying plaster-cloth and cork roadbed, and throwing down a base coat of paint to hide the pink.

 

I never got to the plaster-cloth, cork, or paint, although I'm nearly ready to start plastering (maybe tomorrow night, if I don't have other distractions).

 

The photos show what I did manage to do:

 

photo 1: This shows the foam cut to allow the village to sit at a lower level inside the curve. After I glued down the foam, I realized I wanted the road from the bridge (the big commercial avenue from the Urban Station scene) to continue through this area and under the tracks.  Which meant a bridge for the tracks above the road. Which meant a gap in the foam.  The foam I'd glued down the night before.

 

Fortunately I'd used Woodland Scenics Foam Tack glue, and after cutting on either side of the gap with a large handsaw, a putty knife levered up the now-superfluous chunk of foam without a hitch. A new 0.75-inch slab, to match the "village" height, was glued in its place. The photo shows my first placement test using 186mm bridges.  Those were too wide, so I switched to 124mm single track viaduct sections as a suitable stand-in for a ballasted-deck bridge.

 

photo 2: a different perspective on the placement test. This one makes the trenches cut into the top layer of foam under the tracks more obvious.  This is where the electrical feeders will go, leading to the edge of the table then down through the holes drilled when the table was built.

 

photo 3: Once I had a gap, I needed to have bridge abutments.  These are just sections of 1x4 pine left over from the construction of the support legs, cut to an appropriate length.  This photo shows them without paint, with the 124mm viaduct sections. They'll be glued in place prior to the plaster-cloth being applied, so that the terrain can wrap around the front edge (I also made a set for the four rail bridges across the river).

 

photo 4: and this is after I'd painted them with two coats of latex primer (the same stuff I used to paint the tables).  This is just the base coat to seal the wood before I glue them in place; they'll eventually get a coat of some whiter "concrete" color. The gap between the abutments is just slightly wider than the planned roadway, so they're a good match for it.

 

photo 5: while I was at it, I decided the corners were too flat, and added a couple of chunks of 2-inch foam to provide a hillside behind the track.  I also added a set of 2% grades to bring the tracks up to the height I'll need for clearance of the Urban Station over the Subway tracks.

 

Another thing you'll see in this photo is some black window-screen, cut to fit the hillsides.  This is going to be applied to the plaster (or maybe something atop the plaster) to give the texture of a stone retaining wall. I'm following (roughly) the idea described by Capt O. in Pouring Concrete on Shōgatsu. Rather than paint, I'm planning to color the wall with a brown ink wash.  We'll see how that turns out in a week or so.

 

That's it. Not as much as I'd hoped to accomplish, but it's getting close.  This scene is going to be my practice round for the construction and scenery techniques I'll use in the two other scenes, as this one is the least likely to be closely viewed, so any errors will be easier to live with. And it's also relatively simple in terms of track and wiring, so I can always tear it out and rebuild it later, if I really don't like something.

 

And with it finished, it will be both an anchor for the track placement on the other two scenes, and an incentive to get them to a similar level of completion so I can actually run trains.  Realistically, the latter is still a month or two away at the rate I'm going.

[Mudkip Orange]

Awesome.