Starting a new layout...

[Aleks]

My benchwork still needs assembly (as soon as the weather is better and I can stain and assemble parts), and I have been working on a layout for the track. My last one got too complicated and I have re-started from scratch. This forum has been tremendously helpful in terms of ideas and suggestions of what may make sense. The below is a conceptual plan, so most of the trackwork is just basic not developed. I am interested to hear suggestions and critique and any points of what may not work. It will be my first serious layout, and it's for sure ambitious. It probably will take a couple of years for sure, especially since I have procured track for now just for the tram operation (it will be phase 1 as I think it will be easier to lay it out on the ground level, before I build train tracks a lot of which will be elevated). And the track I procured is for the previous and fairly different version of the layout.... oh well.

 

The underlying concept is a passenger rail operation within, into and out of a city . Sorry I don't really have much interest in freight trains.... I may get one for good measure for some local hailing eventually but too early to tell. The location is a fictional city I provisionally called Sorenten. In case it may sound Norwegian or Dutch, it's actually そうれんてん, or 蒼蓮殿, which means The Hall (or palace) of Blue Lotus. The city that grew up out of a village that had a hall or a palace of special significance and where they had some blue lotuses (which unbeknown to the poor commoners were blue because they were dyed:))... All made up of course.

 

Rail will all be Tomix sectional. The train operation will run on DCC, trams will be DC-based.

 

There will be three operations:

 

(1) main line. It will be shared by shinkansens, rapid trains, and local EMUs, mostly double tracked. The line is essentially end to end (two in-between stations, total four), with an extra branch, and ability to run a circle with the two in-between stations (likely just in one direction, which is fine). Platforms will be 1120mm (Tomix s280 x 4), so train length is limited to about 7-8 cars. Some (a lot) of this will be on viaducts, and a short stretch in a tunnel inside a fairly shallow mountain. 

 

(2) local private line, all single tracked, with passing sidings. A total of 4 stations, probably all with 2 tracks. A crossover to the main line as private line trains will use the main line's yards. Private line trains will be generally 1-2 cars long, though platforms will be 560mm (Tomix s 280 x2) just in case so I can run a longer train there (up to 4 cars). The local line will mostly operate at ground level or in a cutting, though there will be an elevation at one end and a bridge.

 

There will be two large yards to support the above operations (Tomix sets with extensions), so a total of 10 trains can fit. And a small yard for 3 trains up to 280mm long (i.e. 2 cars).

 

(3) tram line through the middle of the city, with branches to the main train station and into suburbs, and a tram depot. Tram tracks will be mostly flat with a bridge or two over a cutting.

 

I have attached AnyRail screenprints. Note this is not a track plan yet - although I did lay out track details in some places to make sure I can connect Tomix pieces, others are just simply double track which in some cases is just approximate location, and not using the actual type of track I will use. In other words, it's a concept, not a track plan. None of the stations are developed yet, and crossovers mostly not done yet either. Tram line is also not there yet, as it's easier to fit it into the space I have left after laying out train lines (vs. the other way around).

 

Colors at this point stand for height (not blocks). 

 

Blue = lowest level

Green = Blue + 25mm

Yellow = Green + 25mm

Red = Yellow + 25mm

Purple = Red + 25mm

(vertical transitions of course will be needed but I estimate should be possible i.e. within 4% grade for the length).

 

I think 50mm/2'' (or so) is the typical vertical clearance needed (?). So red line can cross over green and blue, yellow can cross over blue, purple can cross over any except red.

 

The "ground" level for the layout is actually mostly green, but blue on the right hand side since most tracks there have to be lower to fit under the main line incline. The local line runs in the city in an open cutting (where it's blue) so it can be crossed by the tram line on a bridge. 

 

The workbench will be a flat 18mm/3/4 inch plywood, the main surface is 3080 x 1020mm (10x3 1/3 feet). It will have access mostly on the front and the left hand side, no access on the right hand side (will sit next to a room wall), and some limited access on the back where it will be next to the window (can squeeze in between if needed ). In principle I think I should be able to slide it a little out if needed as well.

 

Anyway, many thanks for any ideas...

 

Images in order - Overall view, Main line (excluding yards), Private line, Lower level only (including yards), Upper level only.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Aleks

[MeTheSwede]

It's nice to see you are planing a layout!

I'm still pretty new with model trains, but layout design is probably what I find to be the most interesting aspect of the hobby, so I should have picked up atleast a bit during the past 3 years. At first as I tried to figure out how your layout is planned to work I was thinking about pointing out issues about visibility, accessability and so, but instead I'll just skip right away to my main point of caution.
 

 

The pattern I've observed from reading layout threads in various forums is that when a planned layout reaches a certain size and complexity, work with it usually gets abandoned somewhere along the way. This is especially so when the builder isn't very experienced.

 

Just like real world railway projects, our ones tend to go hugely over budget and projected time before completion. When I was planning my layout (which covers about half the area of yours and has maybe a third if it's amount of tracks not counting trams) I was thinking 2 years might be a realistic timeframe to build it, but now 2 years later I know it will take more than another 2 year to finish it. 😅

 

When a project takes many years to complete, there are a lot of possible reasons it might be abandoned before completion. Some are external, like moving houses, becoming a parent or getting distracted by another hobby. Others are related to the layout work, like seeing large areas of barren plywood and getting put off by the lack of progress, or simply changing preferences along the way. (Why is that overhead station in that location? I wish I had done more of a rural layout, or whatever.)
 

Layout design software like Anyrail is good for helping to make sure that the track geometry works, but that's the only thing it does. For all the other aspects of layout design, like everything estetic, as well as things like operating potential, ease of access and what we actually want to get out from our model railway, we have to figure it out ourselves and that's hard. It's very difficult to get a feel about how things will work before construction has started. And our preferences will probably change somewhat between layout design and finished layout.

 

So to summarise what I'm saying, I think you should start by getting a bunch of Tomix track and experiment to see what works in general and what works for you. Also consider whether you might possibly be aiming for too much at this time. Maybe start smaller and allow for expansion later.

 

When writing this I remember I recently saw the video below with some clever general advice about planning a layout, that maybe you or someone else might find helpful. I've linked seven and a half minute into the video, as the first part is about convincing people to start building their first a layout at all and you've clearly passed that stage. Some other readers might need to watch from the start. 🙂  

 

 

 

 

 

[Beaver]

The top right corner is rather deep - how do you reach it ('Limited' access at the back implies you can't get all the way into the corner from that side).

 

You have a lot of tracks under other tracks - how will you clean them or retrieve anything that derails there?

 

The tram line is supposed to thread through the leftover space - but there already appears to be very little space left over.

 

I can't help but wonder if you'd be better off choosing one or two of the three rail systems and concentrating on that, to reduce the complexity. The other/s could be represented as static dioramas within the scene. Such as a tram terminus in a corner with the tram track leading off the board edge as if going 'somewhere else'.

 

 

[Aleks]

@Space BeaverMany thanks for great points! The top right corner accessibility is why I added a cutout in the "connector surface", so I can stand there and reach there. I am 6 foot tall/183cm, so occasional reach should not be an issue. Building something there may be a very different thing. Knowing there may be an issue, I will have to see how it works. I can disconnect the main part of the table and pull it away to get access there (the table surface 60cm wide runs from the corner), but of course once the rails are set, it's not an option. I am not sure I can or want to build so many adjoining but unconnected tracks as there would need to be for separation to be possible permanently.

 

Most tracks under another floor of tracks are in the back, under the overhead station, and a little in front/left. The rest is just space under bridges. I know quite a few people have done overhead Tomix or Kato stations with other track underneath. How do people clean there? (Probably less worried about derailment since would just need to shut the system down and rescue the derailed train... as long as it's not a regular occurrence).

 

It's an ambitious plan so will definitely be done in stages... One bite at a time. The good thing is I can change it at any time until that part is committed and built.

[Aleks]

@MeTheSwedeReally appreciate the thoughts and the video link!

 

In the one year I have been involved in this hobby, I have already experienced some of the things you describe. My first simple layout was created, something worked, something not as I wanted, I started testing iTrain to overcome hardware limitations... Then I got distracted into other things and the layout was just sitting on the coffee table collecting dust. I came up with a concept of how I could do something different with available track, but never got into anything. With track all connected and wired and sitting on the table, it was just  difficult to fix just some pieces. After six months of no activity, and with the plan in my head, I just forced myself one Saturday morning to disassemble everything, re-solder the wire connections, re-assemble and re-wire everything. This took a weekend and a few more evenings, mostly making sure wires would be neatly fixed under the coffee table and not lying in a heap on the floor as they were for the preceding six months. Now it's a working layout with pretty sophisticated automated operation, albeit with zero decoration.

 

So yes... understand the risks. And I know that less is often more. My key interest though is in getting the railroad operating and trains running (automated as much as possible), creating an interesting train operation scene. And with track that is not standard/bland configuration. For now it is much less in getting scenes and decorations set up. I was at some point thinking about getting a few model houses and other buildings to place here and there, for decoration, but we'll see. So... I expect the trains will get running soon... and how much will be after that, who knows. I am much better with software than with anything hardware. I am sure though that delays will happen again, and it's hard to plan for every little detail. Like I found I forgot to buy Tomix rail insulators when I was in Japan, and had to order from there... 

 

Some of the key scenes this layout is built around are (a) a 3-track elevated curve where 3 trains can run at a time, (b), a flat 2-track line (actually likely 3-track now) by the front edge, that can be reminiscent of some coastal lines in Japan, (c) a complex train station with a lot of trains coming/going (more European style though, not a 2+2  tracks), (d) a curved bridge in a city with something underneath it, (e) a local line with tight curves operating at a slow speed; (f) a line curving up into hills to a remote location. How much of this will come to be... who knows. And I am sure it will evolve.

[railsquid]

1 hour ago, Aleks said:

Most tracks under another floor of tracks are in the back, under the overhead station, and a little in front/left. The rest is just space under bridges. I know quite a few people have done overhead Tomix or Kato stations with other track underneath. How do people clean there? (Probably less worried about derailment since would just need to shut the system down and rescue the derailed train... as long as it's not a regular occurrence).

 

Ι had some ambitious plans involving track running underneath scenic sections, including overhead stations, because it looked good on the plan, but eventually came to the conclusion that if the track is inaccessible without dismantling large sections of scenery, it will be a source of pain and unhappiness. I do have track running under scenery (including some pointwork), but designed it so that it's easily accessible for cleaning, maintenance and derailment incidents. YMMV.

[Aleks]

@MeTheSwedegreat video, just watched it! I agree with the points there... and understand there are many many compromises that need to be made. In fact, I have already been making quite a few, starting with setting limits for the train size - I will never have 16-car shinkansen, as impressive as they would look. Simply not enough space on a 3-meter long table for them to look good. I probably will not run shinkansens faster than ~120 km/h (scaled)... probably won't look good. And I don't want to have shelves filled with trains that look nice, but I don't have space to set them on the layout. So... limit the number of trains and set rules for what I buy and don't buy (and they all have to be Kato, as I can't for now solder a decoder in).

 

It is definitely also hard to see how things will look like in reality on the table vs. in software... I am sure experience will be telling. Especially since I have no experience setting up scenery, this will be a challenge no question.

[Aleks]

14 minutes ago, railsquid said:

 

Ι had some ambitious plans involving track running underneath scenic sections, including overhead stations, because it looked good on the plan, but eventually came to the conclusion that if the track is inaccessible without dismantling large sections of scenery, it will be a source of pain and unhappiness. I do have track running under scenery (including some pointwork), but designed it so that it's easily accessible for cleaning, maintenance and derailment incidents. YMMV.

 

How much space is there under an overhead station to pull out a derailed train? This is the one I worry most about, but at the same time I think people do have them.

[railsquid]

37 minutes ago, Aleks said:

 

How much space is there under an overhead station to pull out a derailed train? This is the one I worry most about, but at the same time I think people do have them.

 

Hard to say, I suppose it depends on how the station is laid out etc.. But in general pulling derailed trains out of confined spaces is a source of pain, because there's a good chance the derailed car or cars will get stuck on something and/or uncouple, then you really need to be able to get at them from the side or above. Not saying it's a bad idea to have track under overhead stations, you just need to think very carefully about access.

[Aleks]

1 hour ago, railsquid said:

 

Hard to say, I suppose it depends on how the station is laid out etc.. But in general pulling derailed trains out of confined spaces is a source of pain, because there's a good chance the derailed car or cars will get stuck on something and/or uncouple, then you really need to be able to get at them from the side or above. Not saying it's a bad idea to have track under overhead stations, you just need to think very carefully about access.

 

The window at the back side of the layout has two sets of hanging blinds which slide to the side and have a casing around them. So if I slide them to the other side, this will mean a space about 30 cm deep that will always be available there (although I will need to get there somehow). Probably should put a simple chair there so I don't have to stand when there, and may need to change how that side of the benchwork will be assembled, if a plank will be in the way. EDIT... just checked my benchwork, no planks in the way. So can set a chair and slide under the layout into the space and sit on it.

 

Also, from the same space, I can reach the far right corner too, max distance 65 cm, albeit at an angle.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Aleks

[MeTheSwede]

Putting track together (temporarily) and driving some trains on it (DC) will ultimately answer questions like:

Was something too hard to reach (in your opinion)?

Is a section too annoying to track clean (in your opinion)?

Will the local line even be seen behind that overhead purple track station?

Does a tunnel work well here? Or maybe over there? (Covering a section of track using cardboard, paper, or whatever)
Will this turnout on/near an incline lead to derailments?
What train lenght looks best on this track?
How can bridge supports be placed for an overhead line going over a lot of stuff?

Is it a good position to have a yard at the back (behind stuff blocking sight)?

Do you like the look of [insert something]?

And so on...

 

 

As for scenery, maybe Sheffie's quick and easy approach in this thread might be an inspiration for you?

 

 

 

[Aleks]

@MeTheSwedeMany thanks! More great questions. I spent some time today on the Tomix site looking through their model layouts. Actually quite a few good ideas... and then I saw this picture and thought if there is a line running under this, how I would squeeze my fingers into it trying to pull anything out... Probably need to simplify a few things.

 

 

I do like how the yards are set up now, with convenient access from either side without fouling the main line. But perhaps the lower level main line would need to either go, leaving just one circle around the table instead of effectively two right now, or be moved away from under the main station. I also tried to complete the layout of the left hand side curve and transition to the lower level and the mid-city spur, and I don't like so far any of the solutions I am coming up... did not expect this problem. So this may need to be overhauled as is. Tomix site has quite a few sample track plans for different type of rails, and it's actually great to think how different types of configurations can fit into my space (and many would).

 

Might as well do what you suggest, get the right track and start playing and seeing how it works. DCC wiring to me is easier than DC though:). Just a few wires to make sure each rail gets some power, and off we go.

 

- Will the local line even be seen behind that overhead purple track station? - Depends on the angle. Would need to be from the left hand side and from close to that spot, or from the above.

- Does a tunnel work well here? Or maybe over there? (Covering a section of track using cardboard, paper, or whatever) - I am afraid of making a tunnel below ground level as I know this can be even more difficult to access than a line under another line, if something goes wrong. Different from the tunnel inside the mountain where I can just lift off the top of the mountain.
- Will this turnout on/near an incline lead to derailments? - It's already gone... I can bring the 3rd track directly to the station, making for a more interesting station approach.
- What train lenght looks best on this track? - Good question... It has to be right. I don't like at all how 3-car shinkansens look, feel like they had been hacked with a chainsaw. I am running 4-5 car trains on my coffee table pilot right now, and they feel decent but I do wish they were a bit longer. More than 7-8 cars will turn stations into monsters that will consume all available space though. Of course will need to see how the big layout looks and feels.
- How can bridge supports be placed for an overhead line going over a lot of stuff? - Don't know... This is the big reason I have decided to switch to Tomix, as bridge support is more flexible. I presume it can be done, but have not yet done engineering thoughts on how exactly...

- Is it a good position to have a yard at the back (behind stuff blocking sight)? - actually both yards can be seen easily from close proximity, one from the left hand side, the other from the front right. In each case that's the dead-end side of the yards, but that should be fine. Everything cannot be front and in focus. I am spending time right now on the pilot sitting on the left hand side on the floor looking at the yard entrance, I can live with that.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Aleks

[Aleks]

@MeTheSwedeOh and many thanks for the link to Sheffie's thread. Reading it, some very nice ideas.

[Aleks]

Thinking through it... rather than trying to squeeze too much into a layout - and I can't create a "dream layout" anyway, and I have too many ideas for it - perhaps a better way could be to take things one at a time and not create a once-for-all structure. Build something, knowing I will replace it whenever I want something different... 

[bill937ca]

Keep your ideas but the main thing is to run some trains.  Get some experience.

Edited January 30, 2023 by bill937ca

[Aleks]

This was the weekend my benchwork was supposed to be erected... Instead... the legs after polyurethane finishing still smell horribly of VOCs. I pulled 4 of them and the instrument desktop into the room, and started getting headache right away... They all all back into the street, and will likely remain there for a few more weeks until the smell subsides. In addition, UPS/USPS mortal mail delivery combination lost a package of gauge 24 hookup wires I am using to connect the bus to the tracks... replacement delivery has been promised but not initiated. And my benchwork vendor went into a winter hibernation and has not shipped casters I decided to put on the legs. In fact, not even sent a purchase order for them. On the good side, I got a bulk package of cork. I did not realize how huge it is... so it was a challenge finding a place to fit it out of sight. I don't have a basement or a shed, the pilot layout is and the new one will be in the bedroom.

 

So the normal thing... sit and wait.

[Aleks]

Almost three months later... benchwork legs spent pretty much all this time outside drying. Although there is still a faint VOC smell, it's passable. The benchwork has been assembled, the desktop is just sitting on top of it for now, I need to change a couple of places of how it's getting fixed to the benchwork.

 

I think my next steps are drill holes for wiring, and start laying the under-table wires. I also want to make short retaining barriers around the perimeter. Not so much to prevent trains from falling but to hold plexiglas in place that I want to insert which will prevent the trains from falling. 

 

This is how it looks like at the moment. Note all legs are on wheels and the whole thing can fairly easily slide towards the camera (or to the right) to free access to the back or the left side.

 

I would really appreciate any advice on (1) location and distances between holes for wires. I plan to make "ground level" either 1'' or 2'' above desktop and plan to drill 1'' diameter holes, and want to have flexibility to reassemble the layout whenever I feel like, (2) how low below the desktop the wires is best practice to lay - I plan to use wire terminals to connect pieces of the main DCC bus and any auxiliary wires, and the DCC controller and other equipment will sit on the shelf on the left attached to the benchwork, and (3) a good general sawing tool. I don't plan to do crazy things, but need to do things like cut thin plywood for the barrier around the perimeter, or plywood blocks for the subroadbed. No crazy curving plywood as subroadbed, as I'll use Woodland Scenics foam risers and such for that. Just e.g. to set up a yard at 1'' or 2'' above the benchwork, a plywood block should be just fine, but likely need to cut it to size. I was thinking about some Proxxon or Dremel with rotary tools but getting lost in the models.

 

Many thanks!

Edited April 11, 2023 by Aleks

[Aleks]

I have finally started working on laying the track. Although the desktop is not yet attached to the benchwork, but it's fully ready and just awaiting completion of wiring. The main bus is in process too... This weekend was spent between finishing the desktop (done!), learning my new Dremel 4000, learning how to operate a mini rotating saw, and assembling a yard using Tomix 91016 + 91017 sets. I feel a lot more confident now cutting wood.

 

Surprise #1, Tomix lists layout size as 120 mm wide. I cut the board to 140 mm just in case... and also cut XPS boards to the same width, to try an alternative. Reality - with wide track included in the set, the width is around 161 mm. And even ignoring the wide sides, it would be around 144 mm. How did they come up with 120?

 

Surprise #2, it turns out my original yard plan was only approximately based on the combination of the two Tomix yard sets. I must have realized a while back I needed longer track and extended it in my drafts, but then must have totally forgot about it when buying the track for it. So now I need to add about 245-280mm of section(s) to each track. Thankfully I just happened to order a few recently... that was lucky.

 

The yard got close to finished... might be able to finish it during the evenings during the week.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Aleks

[MeTheSwede]

I don't understand... what was supposed to be 120mm wide?

[katoftw]

Always measure before cutting. Include layout track plan.

Edited April 25, 2023 by katoftw

[cteno4]

Measure once, cut twice is more fun.
 

jeff

[brill27mcb]

Even more fun is measure once, then un-cut!

 

Rich K.

[Aleks]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:41 AM, MeTheSwede said:

I don't understand... what was supposed to be 120mm wide?

Sorry just saw the reply. The width of the yard layout according to the front of the Tomix box that contains it. 

[Aleks]

Finally, today, some running could be done. The table has been mounted, the track set up, the wires connected (partially temporary wiring just to get it going). The inauguration honor went to Hiroshima Hannover tram which made a couple of short and long circles over the layout. Following it was Hiroshima Greenmover Lex Model 1000, and then my recently bought Matsuyama old livery model 2000 #2006 which I bought on buyee.jp. And then my wife came in and sent me to bed, and I also had to remove a portion of the table top. Thankfully for now it's a quick exercise.

 

The test run discovered two soft spots in wiring, will fix these next. One is a short dead stretch that trams can pass through except for the Hannover model due to its single truck, and the other is a block that has a switch in the middle and thus I need wiring on both ends of the switch.

 

Hannover 200 at the outer track of what will be a loop at the train station. Never mind not a single loop in the entire Japan...

 

Greenmover Lex in the depot that for now doubles as the opposite end of the line loop. For now just two operational tracks.

 

Hannover type 200 running along the future boulevard.

 

Pull in from the depot.

 

Greenmover at the short run loop.

 

Iyotetsu 2006 that I literally just pulled from the box, installed TM-TR01 and did not yet have a chance to add bumpers and wait, on a curve turning from the boulevard to the loop at the future train station.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Aleks

[Aleks]

Following more negotiations with the spouse, changes had to be made. The plywood tabletop was replaced with 2-inch XPS pink foam board from Home Depot. Cutting was done using using foam wire cutting tool. After some practice, it worked sufficiently well, although I made the same measuring mistake as with the plywood (because I measured parts off of the plywood). It's been fixed by adding an extra piece to cover the gap. Now I need to latch together the five pieces that form up the new tabletop, in a way that they can also be separated easily. The plywood table top parts were held together by five toggle latch clamps (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083GQLBJN) attached to the bottom of the tabletop by screws, and I have four more left. So I will try to use these on the foam board, although I think I will need to glue them to the foam board as I don't think screws will hold. Attaching the thing to the benchwork in a detachable way will be another challenge.

 

In the meanwhile I decided to relocate all tram tracks to a long narrow shelf in my home office so running could re-start. The track plan had to be adjusted somewhat due to the narrow shape of the shelf, but not too badly. The shelf is almost 11 feet long and 1.6 feet deep, so plenty of space to be creative, and tram tracks will not be in the way of building a train layout. All wires can be guided through existing holes into the storage space under the shelf so they would not be too much in the way.

 

The track has been laid, for now just on the shelftop. It is pre-wired for something like 20 blocks, but for now it is a simple DC operation, with each block connected to the same DC power source, just to make sure everything has power and track is passable. It works so far. Problem children are Modemo 2-car train that cannot pass a reverse curve, and a couple of trams that have their own motive problems. One of them is Kato Lemke Duwag M6 in Bogestra soccer livery had two power wires I accidentally disconnected when trying to fix a mechanical issue. I was able to solder them back into place yesterday. However this tram does have trouble getting through Tomix curves, tends to get stuck or derail in sharper turns. 103mm for more than a section is just not good for it. Part of it is that the wires running through the articulation mechanism were factory made a bit too short and in a 103mm turn become a contraint limiting how much the tram can swing.

 

Now that I have accumulated and run multiple cars from all major current manufacturers, I find I likely Kato models the most, due to quiet and electric sounding motoring, and very smooth and reliable operation. This includes the new Hanover model. Too bad they only have very few trams out in the market. 

 

The pictures can be seen here https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/998-what-did-you-order-or-the-post-deliver-japanese-n-gauge/?do=findComment&comment=248882 and here https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/19168-prague-t3-trams/?do=findComment&comment=248879

 

 

Now that i know the track is in good shape, I want to start getting permanent wiring set up. I also want to elevate the trackbed on a one inch thick green foam board from Kingspan. This will allow to create some elevation changes and hide the wires. I will also lay cork under the track.