Unitram and Kato Hiroshima Tram

[Mlminto]

Hi, all.  I'm finally getting to the point where I can test run some cars on my new layout.  I have one of those "Hiroshima Trams" from Kato; you know, the one with the German writing on it.  Anyway, I have expanded my TV1 UNITRAM track to about double the original size, and have 3 sets of feeder wires to a basic Kato throttle/controller.  The tram doesn't run very well on it, stopping and starting (and ultimately, just stopping), and most annoyingly, stopping right over one of the 3 sets of powered feeder wires I have connected to it.  I have cleaned the track, lubricated the wheels of the tram; I have good connection between track sections, and using my el cheapo HF multimeter, I have no resistance issue.  Help, anyone?  Mike

Edited January 5, 2023 by disturbman

[disturbman]

4 hours ago, Mlminto said:

I have cleaned the track, lubricated the wheels of the tram

Do you mean the gears? Lubricating the wheels does not sound like a good idea as they would sleep and get dirty faster.

Without more info on your troubleshooting, my impression is that the tram always had issue, which would mean there is an issue with the motor unit. If that's the case, I would perhaps open the motor, see if everything is in order and apply current directly to it to try.

But before going there, did you try the tram on other rails? Or other trams on your setup?

[cteno4]

Those old Hanover trams can be fussy runners. They are only 4 wheels and the pocket mech impinge them. May be a bit dirty contacts inside the bogies. Oil gears very sparingly, those small mechs can get gunned up quickly. We use to use one of those trams to test the club show layout after setup as they were so cranky they showed us all the problematic areas quickly! But got to a point it was just always cranky.

 

how do your other trams run on the track? Or do you have another train you can put on the tracks?

 

jeff

[railsquid]

FWIW Kato have released a replacement motor/chassis for the Hannover tram (part number 14071-1B) which is light years ahead of the original one in terms of running quality.

[Mlminto]

3 hours ago, disturbman said:

Do you mean the gears? Lubricating the wheels does not sound like a good idea as they would sleep and get dirty faster.

Without more info on your troubleshooting, my impression is that the tram always had issue, which would mean there is an issue with the motor unit. If that's the case, I would perhaps open the motor, see if everything is in order and apply current directly to it to try.

But before going there, did you try the tram on other rails? Or other trams on your setup?

Hi, and thanks for the reply.  I meant I tried to lube the wheel/axle interface, not the surface of the wheels.  I don't have another tram, but I put an EMU on it today and it actually runs better than the tram, however it is having issues like the tram, ie, seeming to not get enough power.  Mike

[Mlminto]

1 hour ago, railsquid said:

FWIW Kato have released a replacement motor/chassis for the Hannover tram (part number 14071-1B) which is light years ahead of the original one in terms of running quality.

Thank you, I'm looking into it right now.  Mike

[Mlminto]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

Those old Hanover trams can be fussy runners. They are only 4 wheels and the pocket mech impinge them. May be a bit dirty contacts inside the bogies. Oil gears very sparingly, those small mechs can get gunned up quickly. We use to use one of those trams to test the club show layout after setup as they were so cranky they showed us all the problematic areas quickly! But got to a point it was just always cranky.

 

how do your other trams run on the track? Or do you have another train you can put on the tracks?

 

jeff

Hi;  yes, I just ran an EMU on the UNITRAM track, and it is having trouble making it around, as well, even stopping at/near one of the feeder sections.  Mike

[cteno4]

Hmm this sounds odd, something sounds amiss electrically. One thing to try if it’s not hard would be to pull apart all the sections and make sure all the unijoiners are looking good and mental connectors tight. Make sure to pop apart tracks by rocking side to side (with double unitram a small, sharp screwdriver blade between the tracks can really help) not pulling one track up at an angle vertically (I know this may sound funny but some folks do this and it stretches out the metal connectors big time). Also test the feeder sections by themselves from track thru the plug with your multimeter. Make sure to include the splitter cable in the loop

 

I’ve only used my Unitram track at shows and events and it’s run for many hours with no issues and I don’t think I’ve ever cleaned it. We just use a single feeder for a basic set loop to a kato power supply. Qtips would probably be the best too clean the track or lip brushes like these to get the top and just the top side edge of the rail head easily.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394394758893?hash=item5bd3c26eed:g:Y0YAAOSwV5BjgewH&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoPR3ARctIxlGNOgyuPcye4faacnoJQw13b6tGvmad%2FLVZKVaOYRobLOJ%2FgEB0w%2Fd%2FSSjqIkpFeHm7eaTjysR4Im0zXPQ3tZtJKa4rR5w0mkHmW5QwWjnQv8yO1%2BgsqKvjObuT8wvQkxGpfhYKhyUwe9r7pCW9Tw6dvZvv8eUxDFRLUJ%2BnEr9C3agH5IdoOyUkvBCEWjK79QiIRazOUJuJL0%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7zH-ZyvYQ

 

also best to use a low dielectric contact cleaner and not isopropanol as that just promotes microarcing and the formation of black oxidized metal gunk (vicious cycle). You can just spray some cleaner onto the qtip. Good article on it here

 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9
 

none of the rail head looks to below the plastic street level does it? Is it consistently stuttering in the small places all the time?

 

cheers,

 

jeff

 

[Mlminto]

3 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Hmm this sounds odd, something sounds amiss electrically. One thing to try if it’s not hard would be to pull apart all the sections and make sure all the unijoiners are looking good and mental connectors tight. Make sure to pop apart tracks by rocking side to side (with double unitram a small, sharp screwdriver blade between the tracks can really help) not pulling one track up at an angle vertically (I know this may sound funny but some folks do this and it stretches out the metal connectors big time). Also test the feeder sections by themselves from track thru the plug with your multimeter. Make sure to include the splitter cable in the loop

 

I’ve only used my Unitram track at shows and events and it’s run for many hours with no issues and I don’t think I’ve ever cleaned it. We just use a single feeder for a basic set loop to a kato power supply. Qtips would probably be the best too clean the track or lip brushes like these to get the top and just the top side edge of the rail head easily.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394394758893?hash=item5bd3c26eed:g:Y0YAAOSwV5BjgewH&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoPR3ARctIxlGNOgyuPcye4faacnoJQw13b6tGvmad%2FLVZKVaOYRobLOJ%2FgEB0w%2Fd%2FSSjqIkpFeHm7eaTjysR4Im0zXPQ3tZtJKa4rR5w0mkHmW5QwWjnQv8yO1%2BgsqKvjObuT8wvQkxGpfhYKhyUwe9r7pCW9Tw6dvZvv8eUxDFRLUJ%2BnEr9C3agH5IdoOyUkvBCEWjK79QiIRazOUJuJL0%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7zH-ZyvYQ

 

also best to use a low dielectric contact cleaner and not isopropanol as that just promotes microarcing and the formation of black oxidized metal gunk (vicious cycle). You can just spray some cleaner onto the qtip. Good article on it here

 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9
 

none of the rail head looks to below the plastic street level does it? Is it consistently stuttering in the small places all the time?

 

cheers,

 

jeff

 

Yes, much as I don't want to, I think I will take the whole thing apart and re-assemble; I'll post the result.  Mike 😞

 

[Mlminto]

16 hours ago, Mlminto said:

Yes, much as I don't want to, I think I will take the whole thing apart and re-assemble; I'll post the result.  Mike 😞

 

Well, that did nothing other than annoy me 🙂 .  I took every track piece apart, checked them all on my multimeter, reassembled and have the same problem.  Even after laying it on a flatter surface, to see if that made a difference from my layout table.  I have used the standartd Kato throttle/power supply on other kato track, and have had no trouble.  I'm at a loss.  Mike

Edited January 4, 2023 by Mlminto

[cteno4]

Did you check all the leads plugged in together? Did you look at the metal joiners in all the unijoiners to Kate sure none were spread apart? No visible corrosion (that’s rare on nickel silver, but can happen), right?

 

Did you notice if there are consistent track pieces that cause issues? No points, correct, just a longer loop?

 

any other throttle you could put on this just to test it’s not something funky with the throttle?

 

when the tram stops does giving it more power make it go or just a tap on the tram or do you have to give it a good shove?

 

this is an odd one. Sorry you are having this much trouble, I’ve not heard of this level of issues with unitram.

 

jeff

[bill937ca]

Are all your power feeds facing the same way?  Unitram is a bit tricky because there usually is only a single feed location per section and various sections face one and others the other way.

 

This first picture shows the underside of a curve.  There are two feeder slots, one in about the middle of each curve piece. There is a little nick above where the feeder slides in. The second photo shows the feeder in the feeder slot.

Edited January 4, 2023 by bill937ca

[cteno4]

Hmm if you had reversed feeders on the same line it would just pop the breaker on the power pack as that would be a complete short and train would not move.

 

jeff

[brill27mcb]

To help us help you, please answer the following 3 questions for us and then go through step-by-step troubleshooting (4. through 9. below):

 

1. I am assuming that you have no track switches, just an enlarged version of the basic "endless loop" oval, with a separate inner track and outer track. Is that correct?

2. I assume you are using the normal under-mounted Unitram power feeders, and not wired Unijoiners or some other home-rigged feeders. Is this right?

3. I assume you are using the 3-socket Kato extension cables in order to wire up multiple track feeders. Is this right?

 

As I see it, there should not be a problem if the above are true.

 

4. Unplug all of the power feeds from the extension cables except one for each track (inner and outer). For now, don't worry about voltage loss. (if you want you can connect that track's single feeder directly to the power pack, to take the extension cables out of the picture for the time being.)

5. Try running your tram (or the EMU, if it can handle the radius) around each track (inner and outer), and see if there is a particular track joint where it fully stops. If yes, that track connection is not conducting. If not, then the tram will go all the way around the loop. As it goes around, though, it may be getting power from either the clockwise direction around the loop, the counterclockwise direction, or (hopefully) both.

6. What I then do if the tram/EMU makes it all the way around (or tries to) is to pull the track sections apart at one end of the piece that has the active power feeder. Then try to run around the loop again. If this works all the way around, then you know that power is making it all the way around the loop from one direction.

7. If you want to be doubly-sure, reconnect that end of the track piece with the feeder and disconnect the other end, and try it all the way around again. Now you know that every single one of your track connections is conducting, and you have two redundant electrical paths (clockwise and counterclockwise).

8. If everything works this far, reconnect the track pieces.

9. Then, one by one, plug in a secondary feeder cable (and extension cable, if you removed them in step 4) that you unplugged and try running around again. If one creates a problem, then it's likely that feeder is pointing in the wrong direction under the track, as Bill suggested, and you need to fix that. It creates a short circuit. Note in Bill's first picture that attaching the Unitram feeder to one of the two curved pieces orients it in one direction, while attaching it to the other curved piece will orient the feeder in the opposite direction. For each track (inner and outer), they have to be oriented in the same direction all the way around the loop.

 

You probably do not need multiple feeders on a loop that is only twice the length of the basic Unitram set.

 

Let us know how you make out with these steps.

 

Rich K.

[Mlminto]

17 hours ago, brill27mcb said:

To help us help you, please answer the following 3 questions for us and then go through step-by-step troubleshooting (4. through 9. below):

 

1. I am assuming that you have no track switches, just an enlarged version of the basic "endless loop" oval, with a separate inner track and outer track. Is that correct?

2. I assume you are using the normal under-mounted Unitram power feeders, and not wired Unijoiners or some other home-rigged feeders. Is this right?

3. I assume you are using the 3-socket Kato extension cables in order to wire up multiple track feeders. Is this right?

 

As I see it, there should not be a problem if the above are true.

 

4. Unplug all of the power feeds from the extension cables except one for each track (inner and outer). For now, don't worry about voltage loss. (if you want you can connect that track's single feeder directly to the power pack, to take the extension cables out of the picture for the time being.)

5. Try running your tram (or the EMU, if it can handle the radius) around each track (inner and outer), and see if there is a particular track joint where it fully stops. If yes, that track connection is not conducting. If not, then the tram will go all the way around the loop. As it goes around, though, it may be getting power from either the clockwise direction around the loop, the counterclockwise direction, or (hopefully) both.

6. What I then do if the tram/EMU makes it all the way around (or tries to) is to pull the track sections apart at one end of the piece that has the active power feeder. Then try to run around the loop again. If this works all the way around, then you know that power is making it all the way around the loop from one direction.

7. If you want to be doubly-sure, reconnect that end of the track piece with the feeder and disconnect the other end, and try it all the way around again. Now you know that every single one of your track connections is conducting, and you have two redundant electrical paths (clockwise and counterclockwise).

8. If everything works this far, reconnect the track pieces.

9. Then, one by one, plug in a secondary feeder cable (and extension cable, if you removed them in step 4) that you unplugged and try running around again. If one creates a problem, then it's likely that feeder is pointing in the wrong direction under the track, as Bill suggested, and you need to fix that. It creates a short circuit. Note in Bill's first picture that attaching the Unitram feeder to one of the two curved pieces orients it in one direction, while attaching it to the other curved piece will orient the feeder in the opposite direction. For each track (inner and outer), they have to be oriented in the same direction all the way around the loop.

 

You probably do not need multiple feeders on a loop that is only twice the length of the basic Unitram set.

 

Let us know how you make out with these steps.

 

Rich K.

Hi.

 

1.  Correct

2. Right

3. Right

 

Tried all that, still have issues.  No worries, thanks for all the assistance, guys.  I'm just going to use the street plates in a "city scene" without the rails (anybody wanna buy some UNITRAM track / a Tram? 🙂 ).  I'll just change the layout some, and stick with EMU / Shinkansen on DCC.  Mike

[brill27mcb]

Hi Mike,

 

Sorry to hear this is not working out for you. The Unitram track and the Hiroshima/Hannover tram are both well-made items, and a lot of people use them. We just seem to be missing something basic that is going on here.

 

Rich K.