Kato slotless motors magnets effecting Tomix points

[cteno4]

On 11/29/2022 at 11:35 AM, roadstar_na6 said:

Tomix turnouts don't like Kato's slotless motors

curious what don’t the motors like about the Tomix turnouts?

 

jeff

 

Moderator note: this was split off an earlier topic on what brands run on Tomix track.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

curious what don’t the motors like about the Tomix turnouts?

 

jeff

It’s NOT the motors not liking the turnouts. It’s the other way. I’m guessing the stronger magnets of slotless (brushless) motors.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Bob Martin

[Madsing]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

curious what don’t the motors like about the Tomix turnouts?

 

jeff

Yes, it’s the other way round. There are rumors telling that the strong magnets of the new Kato slotless motors are able to cause Tomix turnouts to switch when the train is just passing over them. I don’t know if this has been demonstrated, proven,…

 

For example, if you Google “kato スロットレスモーター tomix”, you find many videos and posts like this one:

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Madsing

[cteno4]

Sorry my dyslexic brain flipped it there. Interesting, that a new one for me. Also wonder they were rubbing it right on the track and at a 90 degree to what the normal orientation would be.

 

jeff

[Madsing]

Correct. I really do not know what to make of these reports. Is there a real risk when the train is running on the layout? I have plenty of these switches on my layout, but I do not have any train using this motor. I was initially interested as the slotless motor seems to perform better at slow speeds, but other reports show that with a DCC decoder (which has BEMF) the improvement is not significant. 

[cteno4]

With videos like that I would want to see one of the non slotless motors doing the same things. Again magnetic fields are very related to orient having effects on coils and such, so I want to see the effect in the orientation of the train to the track as it would be running.

 

jeff

[disturbman]

Recolor demonstrated it on a layout, the motor car switching the turnout as it passed. iirc, Kato stopped deploying the new motor to investigate and fix the issue. In any case, they have been very conservative bringing these to market. Most recent releases had the old motors.

Edited November 30, 2022 by disturbman

[katoftw]

Is it just me? Or did the person in the video vigiously and use multiple attempts to get this phenomenon to work?

[Madsing]

It’s not just you. I also would like to see the issue with a train running normally (on its wheels). 

 

However, in the following tweets from @Re_Color_train they seem to indicate that the problem was real, it was demonstrated at their Tokyo store and eventually solved (I don’t know how). I’ll try to read more about that later. 
 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Madsing
Removed reference to Tomix Tokyo store

[cteno4]

Yeah I thought the same. I think it was just intended to show that in some cases the motor’s magnetic field could effect the point. Field will change once power is going thru it though as well. Perhaps some metal or metal mesh shielding between them. Or a tad more resistance in the point movement so the passive magnetic pull doesn’t throw the point but the coil fire can.

 

jeff

[railsquid]

1 hour ago, Madsing said:

It’s not just you. I also would like to see the issue with a train running normally (on its wheels). 

 

However, in the following tweets from @Re_Color_train they seem to indicate that the problem was real, it was demonstrated at the Tomix Tokyo store and eventually solved (I don’t know how). I’ll try to read more about that later.

 

The stores in question are the Recolor ones, not Tomix. Tweet indicates the effect is very dependent on the height of the vehicle in question.

[Madsing]

21 minutes ago, railsquid said:

The stores in question are the Recolor ones, not Tomix.

Noted. I have corrected the post.

Thank you!

[bill937ca]

On the issue of  slotless motors there a whole slew of videos now.  Below is a You Tube search in Japanese and a couple of videos including a destroyed train.

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=カトースロットレスモーター

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by bill937ca

[cteno4]

I was wondering if a shim of metal below the slotless motor would be enough to disrupt the magnetic field enough to prevent pulling on the point mechanism, appears it does! 
 

where is the destroyed train?

 

jeff

[bill937ca]

44 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

where is the destroyed train?

 

jeff

Right here.     [KATO] The man who destroyed the N-gauge train after replacing it with a slotless motor [Railway model]

 

 

[bill937ca]

[Verification] Passing TOMIX points with KATO slotless motor...

 

 

[katoftw]

Looks like only Tomix turnouts without the turnout motor fitted are affected?

 

Also noticed that only low floor EMUs are being used for examples? Locos are fine then?

Edited December 21, 2022 by katoftw

[brill27mcb]

1 hour ago, bill937ca said:

[Verification] Passing TOMIX points with KATO slotless motor...

 

 

 

The turnout shown does not even have the dummy (non-wound) turnout motor mounted in it when it flips. Normally the dummy motor is needed to magnetically hold the turnout aligned in one direction or the other. Otherwise the points just sway in the breeze. This is what the video seems to show.

 

Rich K.

[bill937ca]

Kato has made an announcement about the slotless motor, but I can't even get through on the link supplied. Here is the text of their Facebook posting.

 

】Announcement 【

Thank you very much for your valuable feedback regarding Slotless Motor Dairy. In the bulletin board on the website below, we've published information about the features and functions of the same motor. We will guide you on the causes of inconveniences, conditions, and methods of measures to prevent them.

https://katomodels.com/news

[bill937ca]

I finally got into the announcement. It is a Japanese language PDF.

 

https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/other/pdf/2022122109284163a253391855f/SL-3.pdf

[cteno4]

So was not clear how he broke off the tabs on the under belly part. Was the slotless motor a bit too large and he forced it? He was not the most gentle parts handler in the video.

 

jeff

[railsquid]

3 hours ago, bill937ca said:

I finally got into the announcement. It is a Japanese language PDF.

 

https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/other/pdf/2022122109284163a253391855f/SL-3.pdf

 

Ah, this is the thread I was looking for when I saw the above. It's not accessible right now for whatever reason, but the gist of the PDF was that they Had Considered The Issue Carefully and determined a) that there was an issue with points from Another Manufacturer, and b) when there was a gap of 33mm (IIRC) or less between running lines, and their solution was to come up with some parts which can be inserted above (?) the Another Manufacturer point mechanisms, and something else which can be inserted under (around?) the Kato motor.

 

[disturbman]

Yes, Kato is supposedly releasing some magnets to put inside or under the Tomix points. Which is a big 😳 

[Madsing]

More extensive (unofficial) translation of the document (translation courtesy of https://www.deepl.com/translator)

 

December 31, 2022

Kato Corporation

 

Dear customer,

 

Slotless Motor Characteristics and Functional Auxiliary Products

 

Thank you very much for your continued patronage of our products. We have received feedback that our new motor "Slotless Motor (SL-3)" may cause problems in some cases depending on the track layout and running environment due to its strong magnetic force, which is the result of our pursuit of high performance. We thank you very much for your valuable feedback.

We will continue to use slotless motors as our mainstay and new power source. In order to ensure that our customers can use our motors with peace of mind, we would like to explain the characteristics of our slotless motors and provide information on our functional auxiliary products in the event of any inconvenience in running the motors.

 

1. Characteristics of Slotless Motors

The slotless motor uses a magnet with stronger magnetic force than conventional motors to reduce cogging (knocking) at startup and low speeds, to achieve quiet running, and to achieve torque equivalent to that of conventional motors (GM-3).

 

2. Regarding the problem

Based on information received from our customers, the following problems have been confirmed.

A. When passing over point tracks manufactured by other companies, the leading rail may be switched.

B. Uncoupler tracks manufactured by KATO may not be passed.

C. When running on double track spacing of less than 33mm, the bodies of adjacent cars may be pulled together.

 

3. Causes of Occurrence

These phenomena are caused by the following factors

A. ⇒ The magnetic force of the slotless motor is greater than the force of the magnet used to hold the direction of opening in point lines manufactured by other manufacturers and the iron core of the magnet, causing the magnet in the switching section to be activated.

B. C. ⇒ If the vehicle is equipped with a single-axle motor and the weight of the vehicle is particularly light, it will be defeated by the magnetic force of the slotless motor.

For this reason, those who use our vehicles with slotless motors under the following conditions may use the auxiliary parts described in the next section “4. Functional Auxiliary Parts”.

I. When a malfunction is found on a point track of another manufacturer that has a different structure from that of Unitrack

Individual differences have been confirmed in point tracks made by other manufacturers.

II. When a light-weight product such as a single-axle motor is run in the following environment:

- On uncoupler tracks

- Uni-trams, etc., where the spacing between double tracks is less than 33mm.

 

4. Functional Auxiliary Parts

As a countermeasure to the above, we are preparing two functional auxiliary products. We would appreciate it if you could select one of them according to your layout, running environment, etc.

 

I. By attaching a thin metal sheet to the back of the point drive unit of another manufacturer's product, the adhesive force between the magnet inside the point and the iron core of the electromagnet is reinforced.

 

Functional auxiliary parts #1: Magnetizing sheet ¥1,045 (tax included)

Scheduled to be released by Hobby Center KATO around January 2023.

 

II. Method to be applied to the vehicle side

A metal plate is placed over the rail side of the slotless motor to shield it from magnetic force. In the case of a car with a single-shaft motor, it is also affixed to the inside of the car above the motor.

 

Functional auxiliary parts #2: Demagnetizing plate, Price TBD

Due to the procurement of raw materials, the price and delivery date will be announced as soon as possible.

 

5. Inquiries

If there are any problems or behaviors in running that are not solved by the above, please contact the following.

 

KATO Customer Service Section

☎ 03-3954-2503 (weekdays 10:00~12:00, 13:00~17:00)

 

We look forward to your continued patronage of our products for many years to come.

Thank you very much for your continued patronage of our products.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Madsing

[brill27mcb]

Thanks very much for this. It certainly makes the issue(s) much clearer.

 

Rich K.