Wooden Canvas Panels for Ttrak Modules

[cteno4]

I just thought I would throw out this idea since commercial sources for modules are slim these days, availability is spotty, and they are not cheap due to rising ply prices and shipping costs. Out club (Japan Rail Modelers of Washington DC) has been doing Ttrak for a long time and in the past I’ve whacked out modules for members in my shop or they have purchased the various lasercut kits. But at shows we talk up Ttrak a lot to the public as a way to get started and one drawback has always been just the price of a single module from $25-50 (depending on brand). Add track some building and scenery materials and it starts adding up to get someone to jump in.

 

So I’ve been looking around for something that is less expensive and more readily available and potentially locally. This lead me to wooden canvas panels, these are basically a Ttrak module design used to paint onto. They make 12”x12” and 12”x9” versions that are 1.5” tall which are just about perfect for a single module. It’s 1/8” shy on the width, but really that only adds a small amount to the module gaps (they would work out to about 5mm (3/16”) gaps between these types of modules), but that can be compensated with some gap filling scenery strips or just having a gap which isn’t horrible to separate different scenes on adjoining modules. The 1.5” height is fine, just need the appropriate length bolts to bring it up to standard running heights. 1” extruded foam board could be glued on top to create depression scenery and bring the module height to close to the usual 2.75” if desired.

 

Nice thing is these are prebuilt, sturdy, and very standardized. Cost is around $6-14 each.

 

Only thing that needs to be added are inserts for leveling. This could be done as simple as made from foamcore squares layered up with glue to make more the old style corner blocks and then drill a hole on it and epoxy a T nut into it. Or small square of ply to put the insert into and just glue in front two corners and back center off the back side (we’ve found the 3 legs to be way easier to level modules).

 

We have been doing lots of more general public events with Ttrak and lots of folks get interested in this a an interesting way into the hobby. Many love the crafting/diorama aspect of Ttrak. Also younger folks usually have a lot less room to work with so the idea of small modules that don’t that don’t take up a lot of storage space and they can work on it on the kitchen table. The meetup aspect also interest many as a simple group event.

 

Just curious what folks think and if they have any ideas to make this more workable on the leveling inserts or other ideas for simple modules for newbies that is easy and cheap.

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GHBN9GM/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

 

https://smile.amazon.com/MEEDEN-Painting-Mixed-Media-Acrylics-Encaustic/dp/B098DM6PHW/ref=sr_1_22?c=ts&keywords=Wood%2BArt%2BBoards&qid=1660614501&s=arts-crafts&sr=1-22&ts_id=12896351&th=1

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[bill937ca]

Do you need to seal it with Gesso?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesso

Edited August 16, 2022 by bill937ca

[katoftw]

8x8 /10x10 might work.  But all the others would be too small or too big.

[cteno4]

1 hour ago, bill937ca said:

Do you need to seal it with Gesso?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesso

Yeah I usually seal the top of the ply on any Ttrak module with a coat of paint and I do use gesso actually as it’s got some texture and does not look smooth like even flat latex can.

 

these have smooth sanded ply faces.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

21 minutes ago, katoftw said:

8x8 /10x10 might work.  But all the others would be too small or too big.

12”x12 is just about right for the standard single Ttrak module. Standard single is 12 1/8” wide and these are 12” wide (and 9-14” deep depending on preference). You end up with 5mm gap between modules with these vs 2mm on the commercial modules. 8” and 10” don’t matchup with any Kato track lengths for modules.
 

jeff

[katoftw]

Dunno. I think you might have sagging if you go further than 25cm with what looks like 3mm ply.

[cteno4]

Doubt there will be sagging, I’ve used 1\8” ply on double modules with only a single cross piece and no issues of sagging. I do generally use 5mm on the tops, but it’s overkill and it’s also a lot cheaper than getting 3mm ply which is expensive. These wooden canvases are pretty firm when I looked at them at the art store a while back. I’ve got some on order to check out.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

So I picked up a set of 4 9x12 wooden canvases very cheap on ebay at $15 for 4! These ended up having 7/8” framing material 1.5” tall, so pretty beefie and even 1/4”-20 threaded inserts could just be drilled into the frame. They are nicely sanded with a decent pine frame and birch 3mm ply. They used filler here and there even so that any open bits in the wood would be smooth when painted, but at least one long edge of each one had no filler so you could just stain and finish the edge as the ply is very cleanly joined to the frame. I’ll just do the usual strip of cherry veneer to make it look purty. Bit heavy with the thick frame but not bad and makes them solid as all get out, you could toss this across the room and just get a ding in the wood. Really great at $4 each!
 

perfect timing as a club member just donated a few boxes of old Tomytec buildings from his old layout to the club so I plan on trying to make a set of 3 or 4 modules to add to the club owned set with these. 
 

also ordered some #10-24 bolt rivets that may work as a cheaper and simpler threaded insert with smaller and cheaper 10-24 bolts for legs. 1/4”-#20 bolts are pretty heavy overkill for Ttrak modules. They were chosen as they are pretty ubiquitous, but in the quest for cheaper and simpler 10-24s may be better. Most of the original Ttrak stuff had a lot of influence from n-trak (Lee and her husband were two of the main pioneers of ntrak as well) and thus I think some of the things were not really set for ttrak’s smaller size. Same 1/4”-20 system is used for ntrak leg leveling. Frame height was also one of these as well as for the size of the module it’s a bit too much visually and not needed at all structurally.

 

anyway should be a fun experiment.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Kiha66]

What a great find!  I've struggled a lot with building even kit modules, so these sound perfect for me.  I'll have to order up a set and try building a loop.

[cteno4]

Only issue is the corners… they don’t sell 14” X 14” ones sadly. But if you wanted you could use r282 and r249 curves on a 12x12 canvas and just inset the ends in a bit as the r282 would put the track about 1/2” in from the edges of the 12x12. Cool for home use to finish off a loop and most equipment should run.

 

yes some of the kits require some filing to get them to cleanly fit together. Prices are high and options low for kits these days and that is concerning ntrak folks getting newbies into the hobby. Wooden canvas is less than $20 with track even with the higher priced canvases (you can also usually find them at craft and art supply stores individually, but a bit more pricy). 9x12 format also is a smaller scenery area to fill for a newbie so simpler, faster, and cheaper to get going for those materials and work. Always better to start scenery on small bits as things tend to go wonky easily as the area gets bigger (had this happen to me scaling up scenery size).

 

jeff

[Cat]

Blick has them in a very large variety of sizes, including 12' x 12"
https://www.dickblick.com/products/blick-studio-wood-panels/?clickTracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=07045-1088&gclid=Cj0KCQiA54KfBhCKARIsAJzSrdpzaO38q8aiJlpLO6QxcUwWuFjA-45gTsUMqcwdGJ3H7K2wU9T-m_4aAp6nEALw_wcB

[cteno4]

Yes art and craft stores as well. 4 packs of 9x12 on amazon for $30. Hopefully the $14 4 packs come back! 12x12 3 pack $30.

 

jeff

[Cat]

Ah right, it was the 14x14 in question.  Blick has those.

[cteno4]

Doh! Totally missed that. Corners solved. Only issue is there will be about 3/8” track overhang. But this can be gapped with a piece of 1/4”x1 1/4” moulding on tow adjoining sides. These could be finished as the front faces.

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woodgrain-Millwork-WM-266-1-4-in-x-1-1-2-in-x-96-in-Solid-Pine-Lattice-Moulding-10004433/206178788

 

thanks for spotting those!

 

jeff

[Cat]

Hmm, with bigger than TTrak gaps between the modules, there is the possibility to consider of sliding partial backdrops (sidedrops) in as scene dividers.

[cteno4]

Actually I liked the gaps with the wood canvas 12” straights. It’s 5mm and it gives some visual separation between modules. Just setting up track and some structures on 3 modules it felt good with different scenes on each module. At times having different scenes butt up against each can nag at the minds eye there is something off. Gap says scene ends here.
 

Also helps break up the front panel wall you get that can really detract from the scenes on top. 
 

of course shims between modules could be made. I’ve seen folks use a strip of 060 styrene with some ground foam on top or a like 3mm cap of 020 styrene to slip in the gap to cover it up.

 

Using these wooden canvases is really oriented at beginners doing one of a few different modules, not for doing a more single scene modular setup. But small gap strips could be made to fully fuse a scene going across multiple modules using the wooden canvases.

 

jeff

[tossedman]

While not T-Trak and not N Scale, this fella has made use of 200mm X 400mm wooden canvas paint panels for his HOn30 layout. What's interesting is the way he joins the panels together using 4mm plugs. He has also designed the panels so that they can plug into each other in many ways.

 

Here's some more information on his "plug and play" connectors. It's in German so you may want to translate. https://waldbahner.de/2014/06/plugplay-steckverbinder-fuer-die-segmentanlage/?lang=en

 

 

Cheers,

 

Todd

[cteno4]

Yes it’s very ingenious system. We have an old topic somewhere on this like 5 or 6 years back. It’s what got me looking at the pre made wooden canvases for Ttrak and mini onetrak.

 

jeff

[Engineer Bob]

So I'm way late to this topic but I was fascinated by it. I did some of my own research and saw you can get 30" x 30" panels. If I'm doing my math right you could use these forr end caps. You would just need to add an inch and a half Kato straight in the middle of your curve and the dimensions should work out perfect. 

[RS18U]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:09 PM, cteno4 said:

Actually I liked the gaps with the wood canvas 12” straights.

Jeff, just to make sure I understand this, are you saying that there is no concern for having a larger gap than the standard suggests (from an operational/mechanical connection perspective)?  I found 3 packs of 12x12 panels ($30 CDN) that actually measure out to 304mm, so 4mm short on each one.  I am thinking this will result in an 8mm gap (or is it 4mm?  Hmm).  Would you suggest adding some thin material to the ends to fill this or should it be good to go?

 

I like the thought of using smaller 10-24 bolts for levelling as I think you are right about the over-engineering aspect of 1/4-20 bolts.  These are pretty light modules.  Will be heading to our local Rona this week to get some of the those.

 

Thanks, Will

[cteno4]

Will,

 

Yes there is no functional reason you can’t have a bit more of a gap (extra 1/16” on each side) and just have track stick out like 3mm instead of 1mm or so with 12 1/8” traditional models. A few folks go nuts on the visual gap between modules and I would not hesitate that some club may go ballistic over it not being exactly 12 1/8” (I’ve been in Ttrak since the start and seen all sorts of odd fist fights occur), but would be for some odd bug up somewhere rather than any real reason. Track is what sets all the real dimensional Ttrak requirements. Bigger gap actually can be a blessing as sometimes tables and leveling is a bit wonky and hard to get Ttrak modules with 1mm overhangs to work as sometimes a little less than 1mm due to track off or module assembly or sometimes the end piece of the module is glued in slight slant vertically out at the bottom. 
 

the gap can be solved easily if there is a visual issue of just adding a piece of 1/16” x 1/16” styrene stock along the top side edge of each module to make the top surface come out to the traditional 12 1/8” wide. The front face will have a bit more gap, but that’s not an issue.

 

some actually make little T strips of stryene to slip into traditional module gaps to cover them up so you can do the removable strips to bridge as well.

 

Personally since the vast majority of the time modules next to each other are not the same scene I actually like a small visual deciding line between scenes. I work in exhibit design and this comes from that background where a little blank space can be a whole lot better separator than lines of forms. I’ve put it past my friends in the biz who are not train modelers and they agree completely. This along with the precepts the 2 3/4” module face height is monstrously too big visually for modules and painting (especially black or brown) the ply the worst thing you can do visually. The module height came from Ntrak mainly (about the height of those 4’ long modules), maximizing number of modules and face height from a 4/8 sheet of ply and a desire to do deeper depression modules that can be overcome by higher track running height. I talked about this a lot with Lee in the very early days.

 

You are right the 1/4” #20 bolts are way overkill and again what was used on on big ntrak modules and ease of sourcing threaded inserts. Much of a module weight can be its inserts and bolts! 10/24 work fine. I’ve found 10/24 threaded rivets that make simple inserts cheap and just drill the hole to be decent pressure fits (threaded rivets usually have a little scoring on them for bite as well) and a drop of white glue, epoxy, or thick ca glue can set them well.

 

Laser/CNC module kits have soared along with shipping of them and usually ends up like $35 minimum and usuallu more for a single module. That’s without track. 1 1/2” tall 12” x 12” wooden canvases $10! That difference can pay for a few structures for the module! Plus wood supplies and company closings have made it a moving target for module suppliers and little competition.

 

You can also get 14” x 14” 1 1/2” wooden canvases for art supply places like dick blicks reasonable. Those end up with more like an extra 9mm gap which could be solved with a small strip glued along the top sides of the interface sides.

 

These also avoid the fear of woodworking as when I describe how the laser/CNC cut modules just sort of snap together and glue them up at public shows some folks still seem to sort of balk at that bit of just fitting and glueing, no matter how simple you make it sound. Maybe they had one too many night made ikea furniture assemblies!

 

If you are ultra concerned with the tiny gap being an issue with the group you want to run with check with them, but personally if a group was going to try to enforce something like this I would not want to play with them. I presented this to the ntrak/Ttrak zoom a few years back and of course a few curled lips at first but one very involved member tried it for himself and gave a nice presentation that this is a valid alternative and folks seem to receive it well.

 

Only real standards that have to be followed is track separation, the ability to lift the track up to usual running heights, and have Unitrak/unijoiner ends on the tracks, and at least a mm of track overhang at the ends. Rest of the stuff is mostly suggestions, but some folks/groups sometimes turn suggestions into standards/requirements.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[RS18U]

@cteno4 Jeff, thanks for the detailed reply!  I would have been fine with a "yup, those panels will work fine" response, but this extra detail is also truly appreciated.

 

I do have one follow up: you mention that painting the fascia a dark colour is not a good idea.  I was under the impression that by painting a dark colour you draw the eye into the scene, maybe this doesn't work with these kinds of small modules?  Or am I thinking more along the shadow box idea like you might see in museums?  You seem to have extensive knowledge of how to show something like this to its best, so what would your recommendation be?  The visible frame is 3/4" and looks like pine.  As a forester, I would much prefer to show the natural wood (and that would also be in line with Japanese style) but don't want it to overpower the story trying to be told by the module.

 

I'm in alignment with all your other comments.  I am fine with carpentry (I have done a few HO layouts), but I want to show to others how simple it can be to get in the hobby, so keeping this as easy as possible.  Our T-Track group is just forming with only 2 members so far, plus some advise from a T-Track veteran who lives a bit too far away to be part of our group on a regular basis.  There is a local show in August I am hoping to get at least a couple of these done to add to the lengthy modules the other member is doing up but work keeps throwing extra projects at me.

 

Will

[cteno4]

Will (@RS18U),

 

yeah, sorry just an opportunity to restate the benefits of this method!

 

Blacking out is something that can be done on larger stage situations, but on something as small as Ttrak it just creates a big black bar. I’ve seen many say it  makes a negative space, but that’s not what negative space is nor does it have anything to do with painting things black. I’ve heard a lot of design talk from folks on this subject that have zero design training, so it’s a bit of a broken record for me.

 

We are very careful in exhibit presentations what is around our exhibit pieces and use natural finished woods as much as possible. Any touchable surface it’s a must to have nice richly finished wood and not metal or synthetics. This is because our subconscious monkey brain just accepts a nice natural wood finish as something natural and normal and does not get hung on it. Metal, synthetic, and painted surfaces tend to catch on the monkey brain and end up distracting. They are also just not comfortable to touch. Rarely do we use paint finishes on many things and when we do it’s stuff away from the exhibit material (things like bases, but even then a lot of thought is given to color and type of finish, never a standard heavy gloss or matte coat).
 

If you want examples of where simple, clean wood finishes and how they make something approachable and also non distracting is to look at the big maple tables in the Apple Store. They work stunningly well! It use to be funny to walk past the Apple and Microsoft stores like 6 store fronts apart in our local mall. Apple Store equipment is sitting on those big simple tables, all wood and you have folks climbing all over them, leaning on them and always very close if not touching them without a thought, totally focused on the equipment. The products sitting on these clean tables stand out so clearly with a nice contrast and accentuate the product designs. Microsoft store was all colored synthetic (usually matte Formica) and painted surfaces, few pieces of natural wood as accents but in high and back areas not up front, and everyone would be standing 3’ back from the equipment and never touching the tables/furniture. Products were obscured by the furniture they were being displayed on and colors and materials clashed with rather than contrasted with the products, marking them look worse. Which stores set record profits on hardware and which is closed now… granted Apple has a much wider range of products to sell in a retail space like that so has a big advantage but in physical retail that presentation of your product is so so important! Same goes for exhibits and same goes for our model trains.

 

These are very subconscious things but being subconscious they are very basic monkey brain stuff that is super universal compared to other more conscious things that are super effected by experience, age, gender, culture, etc and hence why we try to use the  to our design advantage where ever we can. Jobs learned this really early on and brought in masters of intuitive (subconscious you react or do it without consciously thinking about it) design both in software and in product exterior design that know how to use this.

 

The birch/whitewood on the wooden canvases can be left clean and unfinished, finished with just oil, or some stain, or even more fun if you want to bring in some color but keep the wood feeling use some wood dyes (I want to play with different colored wood dies on my mini onetrak modules that go with the module scene theme, it could be really fun, but wood dies can be fickle and require some experimenting,mone of the hardest finishes to do). If you want pretty grains you can easily add iron on hardwood veneers. I usually go for cherry as it’s got nice grain and rich color that pops well with some simple tung oil and bees wax finish. I’ve also been a life long wood worker since I could pick up tools and also raised on boats, so nicely finished woodworking has been instilled in me thru that avenue as well, so I naturally groked this stuff when I got it in design training!

 

I'm really, really happy you are starting your little group out being so inclusive and open minded to get as many into the hobby and Ttrak as possible. This is what we have tried to do for the past 20 years with our club. I’ve always searched for ways to make the hobby more approachable, easier, and inclusive for newcomers as I see it as the best way for the hobby to keep on evolving and more people get the enjoyment of having a fun hobby in their life which is not nurtured much in our current culture, but very important to a balanced and happy life. Kudos to you.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[RS18U]

Thanks Jeff, excellent advice.  I will look for a suitable stain for the frame and go with that.  Highlight the warmth of the wood, not try to hide it.

 

Will

[cteno4]

Bingo! 
 

jeff