Track Laying Experiments

[gavino200]

I'm getting close to starting to build my layout. I'm going to use Peco Code 55 track on a plywood baseboard with plywood subroadbed on risers for high-ground track. The track plan is close to being final so soon I can start buying track. But I have a few unanswered questions before I can begin building in earnest. I'm hoping to run a few tests to answer these questions. Nothing scientific. Just personal quality and preference judgements.

 

Decisions to make

1. Cork vs foam road-bed

2. Sub roadbed: width, thickness, cutting method, and riser support.

3. Track fixation: tacks, glue, screws, or a combination.

4. Ballasting: Well maybe that will be a whole subject in itself.

 

[katoftw]

Sub road bed? Same as baseboard?

Risers? Whatever you used for legs, just smaller?

[gavino200]

10 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Sub road bed? Same as baseboard?

Risers? Whatever you used for legs, just smaller?

 

My track will have two elevations. For the low level it will be 'track, foam/cork, base board'. For the elevated areas the track will be on a kind of bridge - plywood on wood risers. This seems to be generally referred to as "sub-roadbed". I didn't make it up. So it would be 'track, foam/cork, sub-roadbed, risers, baseboard"

 

Yeah, they'll be pieces of dimensional lumber. The main decision will be what spacing to use between risers.

Edited April 8, 2022 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I ordered some strips and a roll of cork from Amazon. I should have it in a few days. I'll look tomorrow at what Plywood is available for sub-roadbed. I may get some thick plywood too, as I don't have much scrap left to experiment with. I'll need it to make the second triangular insert anyway. But it comes in 4x8 sheets, which I can't fit in my car. I don't wan to buy it unless I can find a place that will make a decent cut with a fine tooth saw and not shred the edge.

 

 

 

 

 

[cteno4]

3/16” (5mm) to 1/2” should do you fine. easily cut but more than strong enough for your upper level.
 

Big box stores usually sell 2’x4’ sheets. Alternative is most lumber yards or big box stores will do some cuts for free or cheap on their panel saw for you to get to to a size to get in a vehicle. If you need some strips like 5” wide just have them whack a few long strips off at the desired lenght. Usually 2 cuts per sheet free and $1 for each extra ones. Most places have decent blades on their panel saws to give an ok cut, but they usually don’t have really high tooth fine blades on them. The elevated baseboard edges will be eventually all covered so don’t have to have super smooth cuts.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

10 hours ago, cteno4 said:

3/16” (5mm) to 1/2” should do you fine. easily cut but more than strong enough for your upper level.

 

Thanks!

 

10 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Big box stores usually sell 2’x4’ sheets. Alternative is most lumber yards or big box stores will do some cuts for free or cheap on their panel saw for you to get to to a size to get in a vehicle. If you need some strips like 5” wide just have them whack a few long strips off at the desired lenght. Usually 2 cuts per sheet free and $1 for each extra ones. Most places have decent blades on their panel saws to give an ok cut, but they usually don’t have really high tooth fine blades on them. The elevated baseboard edges will be eventually all covered so don’t have to have super smooth cuts.

 

2'x4' will be fine for the upper level. I was thinking of getting some more thick stuff also, to simulate the baseboard. I'll need some anyway. But the Home Depot rough cut was REALLY rough. Giant splinters all the way along. Splinters like toothpics all along the length of the board. Well, maybe half-toothpics. At least it will get it in my car and I can clean it up myself.

[cteno4]

Sounds like they had an old or just cheap ripping blade on the panel saw or even saw has gotten out of alignment and the blade is not perfectly parallel with the travel mechanism so the blade is cutting at a bit of a diagonal, that causes a lot of chipping! panel saws in places likemthat get a lot of abuse and they are a mechanical beast.
 

might look around at local builder supply/lumber yards in the area.

 

jeff

[katoftw]

Just finely sand the edge. It really is a non issue.

[gavino200]

I got two more sheets of 3/4 inch ply. That should be enough for the second triangular section of the layout. In the meantime I'll use it as a baseboard for these mock-ups. I also got quite a bit of thinner ply. It's just under 7/16 thick. Seems like it'll be thick enough to be rigid and solid, and thin enough to be cut relatively easily. Though I might say otherwise after I attempt curved cuts.

 

Risers won't be an issue. I kept all the extra cut pieces from the 3x3 legs. I'll just have to saw them to length. They'll be redundantly strong and solid.

 

I laid out some of the woodland scenic track bed. It's really a nice product. I was a bit concerned that screwing the track down would cause it to compress, but I don't think that will be an issue. I was also thinking of buying large sheets and cutting it down, but the beveled edges look very nice and would be hard to myself consistently well. So I might actually use this product. I'll need to find a source for 3mm closed cell foam sheets for larger areas like the station and yards.

 

As for the code 55 flextrack, I like the concret ties, but I'm still deciding how I feel about the brass sheen to the rails. After I decide this and finalize the track plan I'll be ready to start buying track and turnouts.

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

Cork strips, cork rolls, and some Atlas tacks arrived today. Based on looks and feel, I prefer the foam slightly, but they both seem fine. I'll use what I have of both. It'll be interesting to see if there's any difference between them. Likely this mock-up will just be some practice in plywood cutting. I'll also decide the dimensions I want to use, and work out the High side / Low side clearances.

 

I'm also going to try making super-elevated curves inspired by @shiniji's work.

 

I just ordered some Copydex glue from amazon. Apparently it's "strong water-based latex adhesive glue". It's what the British guys who's videos I watched use. Then when @cteno4's screws arrive, I'll be ready to start.

 

I need to decide if I'm going to raise the Low side tracks a half inch or so up from the baseboard. I like the look of tracks being at a slightly different level, but I need to look at some prototypes and inspirational layouts before I decide.

 

If anyone has a track-laying or noise reduction idea, let me know. I'll be glad to test it.

 

 

 

 

[shiniji]

 

Hello @gavino200

 

31 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

The modules look great!!

 

Can you tell me a bit more about how you made the superelevated curves?

 

 

Yep, is a simple Technic 🙂 For the curve superelevation, I cut small strips of a 0.25mm plasticard (evergreen or Kromlech as manufacturer) on the outer edge of the cork and glued them on. Thicker plates are also possible, then you can see the curve superelevation even better 🙂

I hope I was able to answer your question.

 

[gavino200]

9 minutes ago, shiniji said:

 

Hello @gavino200

 

 

 

Yep, is a simple Technic 🙂 For the curve superelevation, I cut small strips of a 0.25mm plasticard (evergreen or Kromlech as manufacturer) on the outer edge of the cork and glued them on. Thicker plates are also possible, then you can see the curve superelevation even better 🙂

I hope I was able to answer your question.

 

 

Thanks Shinji, they look great. I hope you don't mind me stealing the idea from you!  🤣 The full size Shinkansen looks amazing on those massive gentle curves.

 

I wonder if placing the plastic shims under the cork would work? It might make it easier to ballast evenly. 🤔

Edited April 11, 2022 by gavino200

[shiniji]

no 😉 I "borrowed" the idea from somewhere else 😂

 

2 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I wonder if placing the plastic shims under the cork would work? It might make it easier to ballast evenly. 🤔

 

That could be, I always lay the cork beforehand because I can lay the curve elevation better (in the right places 😄 ).

 

A few more tips: cut the track insulation in the curves from the outside halfway down, this makes it easier to lay. When laying gravel, I recommend using an atomizer with water and a few drops of washing-up liquid (the one you use to wash dishes in the kitchen :D) to take the surface tension off the gravel, then the gravel adhesive can be distributed without the gravel moving or dripping. Use real stone gravel and not something like Woodland 😉 For N gauge, this should have a size of 0.20 - 0.40 mm. I have now several model railway layouts with several 100 meters of track so gravelled and laid tracks, that was the best solution so far.

[gavino200]

7 minutes ago, shiniji said:

A few more tips: cut the track insulation in the curves from the outside halfway down, this makes it easier to lay.

 

Is this where you did that? (in the red circle). A perpendicular cut in the outside half of the cork to help it curve?

 

[shiniji]

Yes, exactly, the cuts are distributed over the entire sheet, depending on the radius, they are further apart (every 5cm-8cm approx.). I'm attaching a picture of my TT model railroad, you can see it better there (the foam is the curve superelevation, you can buy it ready-made in TT here 😄 ). The cork underneath is cut in the same way.

 

[toc36]

A few years back I saw a video from Europe where the double-side foam tape was used as road bed.  A bead of glue was used on the side of the tape/track and ballasting was sprinkled on.  

 

When I googled "ballasting using foam tape" got several recommendation to use the 3M red automotive foam tape as it is more permanent.

 

 

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

you could cut little curved strips of stryene easily with your scroll saw. Don’t have the make them huge, once you have a template for like a 6-10” arc just draw out a bunch and whack them out on the scroll saw. Easier to glue in place and do small adjustments as needed.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Anyone know what kind of foam the Woodland Scenics foam might be? I'm looking for a source for larger sheets of similar foam for yards and stations.

 

The WS product is fairly firm but compressible. I've seen one video of a British guy using XPS Flooring underlay. When I search I find a lot of foam with a texture/pattern. I don't see any way to see if the other side is flat and smooth. I also see Expanded PVC sheets available at a decent price. But I don't know what it's properties are. Hard or soft.

 

Anyone know what a good search term might be for a product like this? @cteno4 you know tons about this kind of thing. Any ideas?

[cteno4]

The expanded pvc foam is fairly firm. Eva foam is the squishier stuff and It’s the 1 or 2mm fun foam you can get at craft stores in smaller sheets. You can get it in large sheets on Amazon. It’s used a lot in cosplay costumes, light, flexible, and easy to cut. Many different thicknesses and you can get a sample set of various thicknesses to play with. From what I remember of the woodland scenics it was a bit squishier than the expanded eva foam. The woodland scenic foam reminded me more of squishier (it comes in various densities) foam underlaminent for flooring. You can get that stuff in various sizes and firmnesses as well as in compressed cork, which may be the cheapest way to get a lot of thin cork. Underlaminent is designed to be vibration dampening. Might call the local flooring store to see if they have any scraps of underlaminents to play with, sometimes they are happy to save a bag of scraps from a job for you. I may have part of a roll of the cork underlaminent in the basement, I’ll look and can send you a sample. Sometimes flooring stores or online places have samples of this stuff as well.

 

if you want super good double stick tape look at transfer adhesive. Basically it’s just a layer off adhesive you can peel off and pressure sensitive adhesion. It’s the stuff they stick side moulding details on cars, it really grabs! Not as cheap as carpet tapes (double sided), but grew adhesion. Coat of paint on the wood will help as naked wood (especially ply surfaces) is notoriously for not being so friendly to pressure sensitive adhesives.

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

Here’s some squishy 3mm Eva foam with PSA on one side

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08K8ZY8PZ?pd_rd_i=B08K8ZY8PZ&pd_rd_w=ZjXSI&pf_rd_p=7672bfb7-93b0-4322-b745-2104db09c4df&pd_rd_wg=IsEnJ&pf_rd_r=VNWFK4Y3V8REP9R0M9VT&pd_rd_r=1c54dfb7-d578-4769-a9b9-3c7437ff80c8&th=1

 

spray adhesive works well with Eva either with a thick coat slapped down wet or lightly coating both sides and then doing a contact adhesion (but no give from first contact!).

 

jeff

[gavino200]

16 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Here’s some squishy 3mm Eva foam with PSA on one side

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08K8ZY8PZ?pd_rd_i=B08K8ZY8PZ&pd_rd_w=ZjXSI&pf_rd_p=7672bfb7-93b0-4322-b745-2104db09c4df&pd_rd_wg=IsEnJ&pf_rd_r=VNWFK4Y3V8REP9R0M9VT&pd_rd_r=1c54dfb7-d578-4769-a9b9-3c7437ff80c8&th=1

 

Thanks Jeff. I just ordered a roll. I also got the screws in the mail today 🙂 Much appreciated.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

spray adhesive works well with Eva either with a thick coat slapped down wet or lightly coating both sides and then doing a contact adhesion (but no give from first contact!).

 

Spray adhesive?? What'you'talkin'bout Willis?

 

I'm fairly busy for the rest of this month with some work related tasks. Then, I have a couple of weeks of vacation at the beginning of next month. I'll start tinkering and testing in about a month. If anyone has any ideas they want to test just let me know.

 

I'm hoping to finalize the track-plan on vacation and start ordering Peco track. I've no real idea even how much flex track I'm going to use yet. I've read in multiple places that it can be difficult to source Peco turnouts, but I expect those are residual anecdotes from Covid-times.

[cteno4]

1 hour ago, gavino200 said:

Spray adhesive?? What'you'talkin'bout Willis?

Well Arnold, 3M spray adhesives are used a lot for photo mounting, but are also great spray contact adhesives or spray one side and press wet

 

https://smile.amazon.com/3M-General-Purpose-45-Adhesive/dp/B000PCWRMC/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3QRB9QAHEL3TW&keywords=3m%2Bspray%2Badhesive&qid=1649898612&sprefix=3m%2Bspray%2Baheadsive%2Caps%2C46&sr=8-5&th=1

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Super-77-Multipurpose-Spray-Adhesive/dp/B08ZG1TF98/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3GTQ2NIVWZ6VP&keywords=spray%2Badhesive&qid=1649898432&sprefix=Spray%2Bah%2Caps%2C52&sr=8-4&th=1

 

https://smile.amazon.com/3M-Hi-Strength-Spray-Adhesive-14-6/dp/B08ZDWMTSR/ref=sr_1_7?crid=3GTQ2NIVWZ6VP&keywords=spray+adhesive&qid=1649898432&sprefix=Spray+ah%2Caps%2C52&sr=8-7

 

higher the number the stronger the bond.

 

One developed for extruded polystryene foam. I’ve used it to stack layers of extruded polystyrene foam.

 

https://smile.amazon.com/3M-78-Polystyrene-Insulation-Translucent/dp/B001EUOAGK/ref=sr_1_18?crid=3GTQ2NIVWZ6VP&keywords=spray+adhesive&qid=1649898432&sprefix=Spray+ah%2Caps%2C52&sr=8-18

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

other brands as well, just used the 3M for decades.

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

These spray adhesives are great for lots of purposes, definitely worth getting.

 

Also, it looks like I'm not the only one buying all sorts of stuff to experiment with. I've got boxes full of foam, cork, glues, paints, ballast, paper, card stock, cardboard, and whatnot 😄