Window Portholes

[Szdfan]

What are these window porthole thingys used for? I’ve noticed them on both steam and diesels.

[JR East]

4 hours ago, Szdfan said:

What are these window porthole thingys used for? I’ve noticed them on both steam and diesels.

 

 

the side one is to look thru for signal etc ... when the driver doesnt want to put the head outside of the side window (anyway, even at bad weather conditions, the driver were obliged to put the head outside as this porthole becomes rapidly dirty and it's difficult to look  thru it - just read memories of steam locomotives drivers, they explain it).

It's rotating for two main reasons, to easily clean it, and to allow wind to blow the cabin when (eg: when your igniting the fire into the locomotive and the heater is cold, the smoke is back as there is not already enough chimney draft, thus it's blowing the smoke, eg2: when you're filling the heater with coal and there is a lot of dust due to the poor quality of the coal, opening the window is creating an additional air flow to pull out the dust of the cabin).

 

The upper one is mainly used to see what's going on on top of the boiler (safety valve opens properly when pressure comes to the maximum, checking cranks is properly working to drive the sands to the wheels [sandbox was frequently on the top of the boiler to remain dry, benefiting of the heat], etc ... ). It's also offering an additional source of daylight as the top of the cabin is frequently quite dark

 

 

As you can see, this was shot at night with a cobra flash. I let you imagine at daylight, all the upper part remains in a quite dark shadow. Adding porthole offers add light. 

 

At least, when I was driving a steam locomotive in my youth at a preservation association, it was the way it was used. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by JR East
typos & addition of infos

[Kiha66]

8 hours ago, JR East said:

It's rotating for two main reasons, to easily clean it, and to allow wind to blow the cabin when (eg: when your igniting the fire into the locomotive and the heater is cold, the smoke is back as there is not already enough chimney draft, thus it's blowing the smoke, eg2: when you're filling the heater with coal and there is a lot of dust due to the poor quality of the coal, opening the window is creating an additional air flow to pull out the dust of the cabin).

 

Sorry, but this is incorrect.  They do not open but instead help to keep rain and snow off the window.  Steam locomotives in harsher climates got them instead of windshield wipers, and some diesels got them later on as well.  They spin at high speed to fling any weather off to the side, and also have a heating element to loosen snow and ice.  You'll most often see them nowadays on snowplow locomotives, as unlike windshield wipers they don't freeze in place when covered in snow. 

 

They are also known as "clear view screens" and the Wikipedia page on them even uses some photos of Japanese trains as examples.  They're very common in the maritime world.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen

[JR East]

1 hour ago, Kiha66 said:

 

Sorry, but this is incorrect.  They do not open but instead help to keep rain and snow off the window.  Steam locomotives in harsher climates got them instead of windshield wipers, and some diesels got them later on as well.  They spin at high speed to fling any weather off to the side, and also have a heating element to loosen snow and ice.  You'll most often see them nowadays on snowplow locomotives, as unlike windshield wipers they don't freeze in place when covered in snow. 

 

They are also known as "clear view screens" and the Wikipedia page on them even uses some photos of Japanese trains as examples.  They're very common in the maritime world.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen

I was speaking of the ones I was having on the steam locomotives I was driving. I think that the one shown on the initial picture is a rotating one but I can make a mistake. I’m not an expert of Japanese steam locomotives. For diesel, I think you’re right

Edited February 15, 2022 by JR East

[Cat]

All the ones I've seen on diesels are the rotating ice-cutters fitted for use in the snowier regions.  The particular ones in the opening photos don't appear to have the rotating scraper blade though.

The Kiha 222 Shrine on the Minato Line has one of the ice-cutters.  This is not typical gear in Ibaraki, but they had purchased this car from the Haboro Mining Railway in Hokkaido where they really needed it.
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/ea46649895ee96188a07f8b10aaf1a002515a2d5/images/000

[cteno4]

Many locos use just a spinning wheel that spins in order for rain or snow to be flushed off the wheel giving you a clear patch to walk thru w.o wipers in the way and constant movement of the water on all parts. It’s freaky to see one in action, I’ve been on ships when it was howling and everything just a compete blur out the window and turn on the spinning wheel and bam wild clarity!

 

jeff

[Kamome]

I believe @Kiha66 to be correct. The steam engines fitted with these rotating clear view screens were those stationed in snowy areas. If you look at the Hokkaido 9600s as an example, they had these types of windows whereas the Honshu and Kyushu types used a longer, standard window.  The C58 based in Hokkaido and Tohoku had them too with the Kyushu variants having standard clear windows. Same with the Hokkaido and Tohoku C11.  

 

Some preserved locos however contradict this as they may be stationed in areas different from the initial allocation. D51 498 has these fitted which is currently based in Takasaki in Gunma Prefecture, which neighbours Nagano and Niigata prefectures, both pretty snowy. Although it was originally built in Kobe and housed in Okayama.  These windows may have been added during one of it's many restoration projects.

 

 

[disturbman]

I'm sure @JR Eastanswer is correct when considering French steam locomotives, and that @Kiha66is more appropriate for Hokkaido.

From the horse's mouth:

 

Quote

In addition to this, in railway vehicles in Hokkaido , it is also installed in steam locomotives and diesel locomotives , and there are a few examples of installation in diesel railcars of coal mine railways .

 

Though I'm sure they are better and more complete Japanese sources than Wikipedia (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/旋回窓).

Edited February 16, 2022 by disturbman

[JR East]

1 hour ago, Kamome said:

I believe @Kiha66 to be correct. The steam engines fitted with these rotating clear view screens were those stationed in snowy areas. If you look at the Hokkaido 9600s as an example, they had these types of windows whereas the Honshu and Kyushu types used a longer, standard window.  The C58 based in Hokkaido and Tohoku had them too with the Kyushu variants having standard clear windows. Same with the Hokkaido and Tohoku C11.  

 

Some preserved locos however contradict this as they may be stationed in areas different from the initial allocation. D51 498 has these fitted which is currently based in Takasaki in Gunma Prefecture, which neighbours Nagano and Niigata prefectures, both pretty snowy. Although it was originally built in Kobe and housed in Okayama.  These windows may have been added during one of it's many restoration projects.

 

 

 

I think also @Kiha66 is right. 

 

Anyway, just to let you know, unless I'm mistaken, such a device has never been installed in France. What I was thinking it was - w/regards to my French experience is that :

 

 

On this picture, you can see what I was referring to in my answer (which remains true, at least for French steam locomotives). 

 

Back to my photo roster, this one below was shot in 1995 in Corsica (France). This is a train running between Bastia / Calvi / Ajaccio. all the trains are stopping at Ponte Leccia. In winter, it can be very cold and sometimes it's rain like hell or (rarely) snowing. If I don't mind, they don't have snowplow. 

 

Back to the photo

 

 

You can see a small lock. This is for opening it. There is no air conditionning and Corsica weather is warm in summer. 

 

In the history of French locomotive, anti ice / rain porthole seems quite rare

 

This 2D2 9100 seems to be equipped with at the time of the rollout:

 

 

but it has disappeared. even in the 80's, when I was shooting pictures at Gare de Lyon, there were not portholes on front glasses. 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by JR East

[disturbman]

Weather is a lot milder in France. If we can find some example of the use of clear view screens on French prototypes, it would be either in the Alps or the Massif Central.

[JR East]

33 minutes ago, disturbman said:

Weather is a lot milder in France. If we can find some example of the use of clear view screens on French prototypes, it would be either in the Alps or the Massif Central.

 

Not sure to find an example. CC Maurienne for sure not. Some 'autorail' have but it doesn't seem to be such a fitting.

[marknewton]

On 2/15/2022 at 2:17 PM, JR East said:

to allow wind to blow the cabin when (eg: when your igniting the fire into the locomotive and the heater is cold, the smoke is back as there is not already enough chimney draft, thus it's blowing the smoke,

 

Not necessary. All of the modern/standard JNR steam classes have a fitting on the blower steam supply line for attaching a compressed air hose. That allows the crew to use the shop air supply to provide some draft when lighting up and keep the smoke out of the cab.

 

when you're filling the heater with coal and there is a lot of dust due to the poor quality of the coal, opening the window is creating an additional air flow to pull out the dust of the cabin

 

Again, not necessary. The engines all have a connection on the fireman's side injector for a deck hose. The crews use the hose frequently to keep the dust down on the coal and keep the footplate and cab clean. They also use the deck hose to fill the wash bucket so they can keep themselves clean. And the crews I've been with used it frequently.
 

The upper one is mainly used to see what's going on on top of the boiler...checking cranks is properly working to drive the sands to the wheels...

 

The JNR standard engines all have pneumatic sanders operated by a valve in the cab.

 

That photo you posted of an engine cab is very interesting, I've never seen a hydrostatic lubricator mounted like that before. What engine was it?

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

Edited February 16, 2022 by disturbman
quotes

[JR East]

@marknewton, you're two quotes are probably true for Japan, but my experience with steam locomotives in a preservation association is a bit .... different. Depending on the locomotives, esp. for the locomotives with integrated tender such as 141T, TA, 151TC, having a dusty platform was the 'standard'. And it's worst when the locomotives runs backwards. They were known (and somewhere hated) for that. Lot's of drivers memories are mentioning that with the so-called "poussier", a low quality coal.

 

About the last quote, it's this steam loc, a Shay shot at Yosemite mountain Sugar Pine Railroad

 

 

 

 

 

 

I purchase a ticket for a diner + Run at night + extra for being aboard the steam locomotive at night (my son made one way, I did the return way).Looking to the website now, it doesn't seem they offer this option of cab ride anymore (sad).

 

This is shot in the afternoon, when I was going to the ticket office to grab the tickets reserved from France (to have this place aboard the loc). 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by JR East
upd link on Shay locs