Favorite decoders? ESU? D&H? Zimo? Something else?

[gavino200]

It's been a while now since I've purchased or installed a decoder. And I have a fairly massive backlog of DC trains to convert. So I think it's time go give this some thought.

 

I've never really given much thought to the properties of decoders. Generally, I just looked for "what will work" and "what will fit". On DCC all I've ever done is driven the trains with a hand held throttle. Forward, reverse, lights on/off. I've avoided CVs unless absolutely necessary. And apart from a few experiments in sound, almost all my trains are non-sound. So life was easy.

 

But that has changed. I'm working with automation and computer control using iTrain. I'm finding that the properties and programmability really does matter now. Going forward I want to standardize more, what decoders I buy. On the iTrain forum people sing the praises of ESU and Zimo. I've used ESU and have been impressed, though my I mainly chose them originally for size. I've used D&H decoders too, essentially for their tiny size. I've had a good experience but I haven't seen anyone talk them up, and I have no idea about their intrinsic properties. 

 

Everywhere I look on the iTrain forum I hear about how Zimo are super excellent. The first time I ever heard of the brand was when they released their EM13 clone for the !CE4. I just looked through this entire forum and there's not a single thread about Zimo. Anyone here use them? What's so amazing about them?

 

Anyone using anything else that I might want to consider?

 

So far these are the decoders I'm considering, along with the variables that are most important to me. These are motor-only decoders.

 

ESU LokPilot  5 micro

Size: 8x7x2.4mm

Good availability in US

Price $28.99

 

Zimo MX616N

Size: 8x8x2.4mm

Us Dealer

Price $37.63

 

Doehler & Haas

Size 5x7x2.5mm

Only available from Europe

Price 28 Euros

 

Digitrax DZ126T

Size: 14x7.1x3.3mm

Widely available in US

Price $29

 

TCS Z2

Size: 12.95x6.9x2.8

Widely available in the US

Price $46

 

Lais PanGu Series

Size: Unavailable/will measure

AlliExpress only

Price 4 for $11

I'm going to try out one of these in a few days.

Edited February 15, 2022 by gavino200

[Wolf]

I am fairly new to the DCC game, and my first installations where the usual "plug-in" Kato decoders. From there moved on to soldering my first "Kuehn" decoders into some locos as they tend to be cheap (below 20€).

 

A few locos wich surpassed my soldering ability (hellooooo EH500) I got the Kato/Digitrax made conversion boards.

 

Lately started using D&H as the people in my model rail club praised them to be super compatible to what we run (club layout runs Railware on Lenz, at home just carpet layout on Hornby Elite), plus they super small sized if you get the nano.

 

Personally never had issues with the Kuehn, but most people I talk to tend to tell me they crap. Same goes with the Digitrax boards, they seem to be hit and miss. Some work like a charm, some behave strangely, and neither me nor people at my club can figure why (nor are they super involved in my "alien" models lol).

 

I have seen a friend using ESU and they seemed to run very great, I am considering getting a few of these for the next few conversions.

 

Cheers, Stephan

 

 

[gavino200]

I've been learning about Zimo decoders. They do seem very good. Described as being robust, and also very small.

 

This video is a nice little rundown of two small non-sound Zimo decoders.

 

 

The MX616 seems like a good option. They're available on ebay from the guy in the video for $45 each. But that's with $21 shipping to Gringolandia. Unless I were buying in bulk that's a bit steep. There doesn't seem to be a good option for buying in the US. Neither of the two dealers listed by Zimo stock them.

[Kiha66]

I usually use digitrax (including the kato EM/FL) decoders for my basic DCC installs.  I've recently began using ESU for much more sound installs and will probably be using them for Basic DCC as well to allow consisting with the sound units.  IMO the ESU Starting Delay is a must for sound equipped diesel locomotives, I've always been annoyed with the fact most sound decoders have the locomotive begin moving before the engine sounds throttle up.  The announcement of kato board type sound decoders coming soon will make sound conversion of my N scale stock much more convent. 

[gavino200]

Digitrax are not bad, except for the now discontinued DZ123 that had major problems. Unfortunately I have a few of them, that I'll have to replace. They don't work with iTrain automation. I have a brand new DZ126 which I'll probably install into something. Other than that I'm going to stop buying Digitrax as I want to use RailCom. Alternately, I could just sell the DZ126 on ebay and start the new RailCom era now. 

 

I have a lot of EM13s in trains and am not going to replace them any time soon. They work fine. I also have 6 new uninstalled EMs and 13 Fl12s.

 

I've always liked ESU. The only issue is that you have to get the Programmer to load sound files. But that's fine. It's probably worth it if I switch to them. I've been comparing ESU and Zimo tonight and I don't think there's much difference. Zimo has no domestic dealer whereas I can buy ESU from Ironplanethobbies who are already my Digikeijs dealer. They have excellent customer support. You can even get help from them on the forum in real time on a Saturday or Sunday. Pretty amazing.

 

At a size of 8x7x2.4mm I think the ESU LokPilot micro may become my standard non-sound decoder. $37 from IronPlanetHobbies.

 

Probably the only other decoders I'd need would be the Dohler & Hass DH05C and PD05a. They're even a bit smaller and I use them for the most difficult installations. Also they are the implant for @chadbag's EM13 clone project. (a dummy EM board that allows you to fit a RailCom decoder as a Kato drop-in. I haven't tried it yet but I will soon. The downside to D&H is the same as with Zimo. No good option stateside to buy them, so the mail costs eat up your train money.

 

Next I'll look at function decoders, though I have quite a few on hand that I'll have to use first. I'll look at what ESU has, as I'd like to move to as much uniformity as possible.

[Madsing]

So far I have only used the following decoders:

- Kato/Digitrax EM13/FL12/FR11 for Kato trains

- NGDCC decoders for the Kato Toyama trams and the Kato 813 series train

- Digitrax DN163Kxx for Kato freight locomotives

so there not much I can add to the discussion...

The big advantages of the EM13 are the fact that it it easy to install (in many of the newer Kato trains) and its price. I recently purchased a pack of 10 from Plaza Japan at ¥1,650/piece, that's only $15/piece.

It is not clear in my mind what a more expensive decoder would bring.

- Right now, although my layout is fully automated, and I use a Z21 which supports it, I don't feel really interested in Railcom. I am happy telling Rocrail which train I put on the tracks, then letting it follow up.

- On another hand, I would be interested in some sort of "keep alive" or "stay alive" function. Currently, any gap in the supply of power to the train (i.e. dirty rails) and the train will stutter or stop. I really don't like that. I have in mind to try to add that function (or at least a bigger capacitor) to the EM13.

- I am also looking for better super-slow-speed performance (I mean, stability). This mainly applies to freight locomotives. 

[Martijn Meerts]

Quality wise, there's not much difference between the decoders. They also all support the basic set of DCC features needed to run a train. For me, the decision was based on a few things, which have changed over the years.

 

My first digital system was a Selectrix started set from Minitrix. It included 2 digital locos. This was around the late 90s, so choices were rather limited at the time, especially for N-scale. The Selectrix decoders were made by D&H, and I believe much of the rest of the system was as well. I've never had any bad experiences with them, and I actually still have the system, and actively used it for quite some time.

 

When I moved to Norway, I initially picked up a Marklin digital starter set with the 6021 control unit. I got some additional hardware for that system, such as a computer interface and a keyboard for turnouts and routes. Decoders I used at the time were standard Marklin ones, which were a bit of a pain to install since you had to partially rebuild the motor o.O

 

After a while I picked up Japanese N-scale, and bought a Lenz Digital Plus system. I also picked up mostly Lenz Gold mini and eventually Silver+ mini decoders once they started getting some of the features that were previously only in the Gold decoders.

 

After moving back to the Netherlands, I at some point picked up an ESU ECoS, and I've been using that most of the time now. I also switched from Lenz to ESU decoders, because the ESU ones were easier to get, and they're easy to program using the ECoS. I also found the motor control and fine tuning to be better than other decoders, especially with the LokPilot 5. Also, the size of the decoders was a big factor, and with the new nano decoders, that's even more a thing. Eventually I also bought the ESU LokProgrammer, so I'm pretty invested in the whole ESU thing now 🙂 

 

For Zimo, I've only ever had 1 function decoder, which I managed to blow up before I could test it, so I don't know much about those.

 

[chadbag]

14 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Zimo has no domestic dealer

au contraire

 

http://www.sbs4dcc.com

 

[chadbag]

14 hours ago, gavino200 said:

@chadbag's EM13 clone project. (a dummy EM board that allows you to fit a RailCom decoder as a Kato drop-in. I haven't tried it yet but I will soon. The downside to D&H is the same as with Zimo. No good option stateside to buy them, so the mail costs eat up your train money.

 

Technically not my project.   I just took the files that another member had developed and had the boards made.   Lack of D&H US dealer is problematic.  I've been running a bunch of these boards in all my EM13 based trains/shinkansens and sold all my EM13.  They run fine.  I don't like the PD05 version so except for a handful I had made am not using them.  When I had more of the boards made I made the DH05 version.

 

I tend to order the D&H decoders from Europe when I have other stuff I also want/need so as to amortize the shipping costs down as most of the places I buy from Europe have a (high) fixed rate UPS or Fedex or EMS charge.

[chadbag]

 

I've basically standardized on

 

TCS (for locomotives that need Digitrax tyoe light board replacements -- TCS usually has their version).

 

D&H for everything else -- this was basically due to the EM13 replacement board as well as the very small PD05A.  So I also started using DH05/DH10 types in all my other custom hardwire conversions as I was already using them in the EM 13 board

 

Zimo has made some inroads and I have several Zimo as well, including one I bought and hacked onto the EM13 D&H board as a test (not worth it with Zimo now selling their EM13 board standalone)

 

 

 

[chadbag]

Just a note that D&H also makes Minitrix/Trix labeled decoders for factory installations and may make other factory decoders labeled by their manufacturer.  I've gotten them in Minitirix loks with factory installed DCC.  They seem to be more popular in Europe so if you do European trains keep an eye out.  (Places like DM-Toys and others who will install for you at place of sale also often use D&H).

 

[gavino200]

19 hours ago, Madsing said:

- Right now, although my layout is fully automated, and I use a Z21 which supports it, I don't feel really interested in Railcom. I am happy telling Rocrail which train I put on the tracks, then letting it follow up.

 

I'm also a bit on the fence about RailCom. iTrain doesn't seem to need it. I can drag my train from the train menu to the switchboard and iTrain can follow it from there. I've read that RailCom allows you to read CVs on main. That might be useful but not essential. As much as anything I just want to include it for now in case I find a use for it.

 

 

19 hours ago, Madsing said:

- On another hand, I would be interested in some sort of "keep alive" or "stay alive" function. Currently, any gap in the supply of power to the train (i.e. dirty rails) and the train will stutter or stop. I really don't like that. I have in mind to try to add that function (or at least a bigger capacitor) to the EM13.

 

I agree with that. The size of the capacitor can be a real limitation in N scale. I bought a couple of Lais decoders with keep-alive. The caps are huge. Though I may be able to find smaller replacements.

 

 

19 hours ago, Madsing said:

- I am also looking for better super-slow-speed performance (I mean, stability). This mainly applies to freight locomotives. 

 

I noticed when reading the general Digitrax decoder manual that they have a feature to help a loco move at slow speeds by applying a short spike of voltage to the motor if it stalls. Is that what you have in mind? Or are you talking about something else?

[gavino200]

18 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

 Eventually I also bought the ESU LokProgrammer, so I'm pretty invested in the whole ESU thing now 🙂

 

I still have a steam loco that makes diesel sounds, because I refused to buy that thing. I assumed that I'd be fine with the generic steam sounds that came programed on the decoder. I got an unpleasant surprise when I started it up hand it started making diesel noises at me instead of happy steam puffs. The only way to change it is to buy the LokProgrammer.

 

What's it like? People say it's super fancy, but I'm happy enough with the iTrain interface for programming. Does it add anything? (other than changing sound files on ESU decoders).

[gavino200]

9 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

  I don't like the PD05 version so except for a handful I had made am not using them.  When I had more of the boards made I made the DH05 version.

 

Just curious why you don't like it? For intrinsic reasons - function, CVs etc? Or because of form and installation reasons?

 

Thanks for the tip about the US dealer. I figure I'll use a bunch of them for my 25 dummy EM13 boards.

[Madsing]

17 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I noticed when reading the general Digitrax decoder manual that they have a feature to help a loco move at slow speeds by applying a short spike of voltage to the motor if it stalls. Is that what you have in mind? Or are you talking about something else?

Yes. I have tried to use that feature on my Kato DE10 but it didn't help. That said, I may have a problem with the motor of that particular loco as my (newer) Kato DD51 runs much better at slow speed. I am still working on that...

[chadbag]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

Just curious why you don't like it? For intrinsic reasons - function, CVs etc? Or because of form and installation reasons?

 

My comment was specifically the PD05 version of the EM13 board.  Much trickier to solder together well than the DH05 version.  Nothing wrong with the PD05 decoder itself. I have a bunch for tricky installs that don't have a lot of room.

 

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

Thanks for the tip about the US dealer. I figure I'll use a bunch of them for my 25 dummy EM13 boards.

 

That US dealer carries Zimo. They don't carry D&H.  You CAN use the smallest Zimo (MX616? I forget) in a hack way with the board but it is not recommended.  Just buy the Zimo EM13 boards -- they are in stock there for $38.10.

 

 

[Martijn Meerts]

5 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

I still have a steam loco that makes diesel sounds, because I refused to buy that thing. I assumed that I'd be fine with the generic steam sounds that came programed on the decoder. I got an unpleasant surprise when I started it up hand it started making diesel noises at me instead of happy steam puffs. The only way to change it is to buy the LokProgrammer.

 

What's it like? People say it's super fancy, but I'm happy enough with the iTrain interface for programming. Does it add anything? (other than changing sound files on ESU decoders).

 

It's mainly for updating sounds and of course you can update your decoder's firmware. It can also update firmware for the SwitchPilots etc. It does make the general programming a bit easier as well, especially setting up additional functions and non-standard head/tail light setups. Especially with the latest ESU decoder it does help considering they have hundreds of CVs.

 

Also, you make a project for each decoder, so it a decoder fails for some reason, you can replace it and quickly program all the settings of the old decoder onto the new one. Obviously this part can also be done with something like Decoder Pro.

 

I would only recommend the LokProgrammer if you're going to use mainly ESU decoders, and / or if you need to re-program some sound decoders (which is a bit like rocket science ;)). Other than that there's no real reason to get it.

 

[gavino200]

These are the decoders I'm considering along with the variables that are most important for me. Railcom is a bonus and they all have it except Digitrax and Lais.

 

Likely, the ESU LokPilot micro will "win the bid" and become my staple decoder, with the D&H being reserved for exceptionally difficult installs and for the EM13 solder-on clone board.

 

ESU LokPilot  5 micro

Size: 8x7x2.4mm

Good availability in US

Price $28.99

 

Zimo MX616N

Size: 8x8x2.4mm

Us Dealer

Price $37.63

 

Doehler & Haas

Size 5x7x2.5mm

Only available from Europe

Price 28 Euros

 

Digitrax DZ126T

Size: 14x7.1x3.3mm

Widely available in US

Price $29

 

TCS Z2

Size: 12.95x6.9x2.8

Widely available in the US

Price $46

 

Lais PanGu Series

Size: Unavailable/will measure

AlliExpress only

Price 4 for $11

I'm going to try out one of these in a few days.

Edited February 15, 2022 by gavino200

[cteno4]

Wow 4 for $11! That certainly makes controlling lighting and head tail lights affordable! I think I would install them with a socket as I wonder what the quality will be at 4 for $11…

 

jeff

[gavino200]

3 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Wow 4 for $11! That certainly makes controlling lighting and head tail lights affordable! I think I would install them with a socket as I wonder what the quality will be at 4 for $11…

 

jeff

 

I also bought some function decoders for the same price. I'll post in my "Lais" thread when I test them.

[chadbag]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:34 PM, cteno4 said:

Wow 4 for $11! That certainly makes controlling lighting and head tail lights affordable! I think I would install them with a socket as I wonder what the quality will be at 4 for $11…

 

jeff

 

 

I have not found any on ALiExpress for anywhere near that price.   Their decoders are around $15 a piece (still pretty cheap for a motor decoder).

 

As I mentioned in another thread I just ordered a few LokPilot 5 micro for $28 each.  Going to try and bastardize one onto the JNS EM13 board (the one made for D&H decoders).  Wold be a cheaper alternative than importing D&H [unless I do a very large import order to spread shipping out] and with the ZIMO factory EM13 ones around $39 each you can't use too expensive of a decoder to build the boards.

 

 

[chadbag]

So my decoders came.  I installed the Zimo MX605N  (The Zimo EM13 type) and it runs fine.  I have one of these in the ICE4 in a set of decoders that was sold for the ICE4.  This new one is just an EM13 compatible from ZIMO and I ran it in a KATO ET425.

[gavino200]

22 minutes ago, chadbag said:

So my decoders came.  I installed the Zimo MX605N  (The Zimo EM13 type) and it runs fine.  I have one of these in the ICE4 in a set of decoders that was sold for the ICE4.  This new one is just an EM13 compatible from ZIMO and I ran it in a KATO ET425.

 

Any special features? Fits fine? You got it from the US dealer?

 

[chadbag]

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

Any special features? Fits fine? You got it from the US dealer?

 

 

I haven't looked at the details on features other than being RailCom compatible.  It basically has all the standard Zimo features.  But this is not the sound version.  I got it from the US dealer I mentioned earlier, Streamlined Backshop http://www.sbs4dcc.com .

 

I also got a Zimo MX615 nano decoder and 4 (2 wired and 2 NEM651 pinned) ESU LokPilot 5 DCC Micro decoder (the DCC only is $28 while the multo protocol is $32 -- I have no need of Motorola / Selectrix / M4 modes so just got the DCC only ones).  I am going to try and bastardize one and put it on the JNS EM13 board (the DH05A version of the board) as it might be worth it @$28 each.  I did this once with the Zimo MX616 but at $35 it is not really worth the effort compared to just buying the Zimo EM13 compatible MX605N already made up @ $38.  But using the LokPilot @ $28 plus one of the boards (and I have hundreds after my last round I had made) would be worth the effort maybe.

 

I also bought the LokProgrammer and the ESU decoder tester (so now I have one of each from ESU and Zimo -- the reason is that once we finish the house and move I'll have the train room and a little workshop area as part of it, but I will also have my office and while I won't have much train stuff there I will have a small oval for testing my app as I program it and I will put a decoder tester there as well).

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by chadbag

[chadbag]

Just got a new email from DM-Toys.de about a new exclusive to them D&H decoder that looks interesting.  It seems to only come in a 6 pin NEM651 variety and it looks like it is a DH10C specs but only 2 AUX functions, no SUSI, etc. and in a DH05C size more or less (seems to be slightly fatter and not quite as long.  It is 21,99 euro but a 10 pack is only 199,00 eur.  That is about 22 USD when buying a 10-pack.  It may be a great and easier4 and less expensive way to build EM13 compatible boards using the JNS EM13 board (maybe with slight alterations but I think it will work with no changes or just the slightest -- less than I needed with bastardized Zimo on EM13 board conversion or will need with the bastardized LokPilot 5 micro I am working on now...

 

I think I'll get some.

 

It is called PD10MU-4

 

https://www.dm-toys.de/en/product-details/DH_PD10MU-4.html