Tokio Station for IG nippoN NORM

[shiniji]

Hi Guys,

As mentioned a long time ago (long, long time ago ....) there is now the topic: the planning up to the construction of Tokyo Station - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahnhof_Tokio - of course compatible with our IG nippoN modules.

 

I know, a big (insane) project, but at some point I want to create a hub station where we can use the Shinkansen line AND the Cape gauge lines separately as in the original (of course with a subway under the station parts).

 

Due to the fact that we want to remain fully compatible with our modules, the transitions are planned to be compatible on the 40cm front side, even if this is then a slightly wider module group or segment group. Between the transitions I will build with flex tracks and peco switches because they can be graveled better, which promises a better overall picture and also looks more exemplary, because the flex tracks are laid.

 

The building should of course be reproduced 1: 1 as an eye-catcher, which will come at the very end (I saw a small replica to what extent the size and details can be derived from it).
What will be a little interesting is that I'll be tricking the Shinkansen routes, these are not continuous because all the lines start here. Here, however, I will set an apology to ensure a possible roundabout via Shinkansen modules, which is an advantage for us at exhibitions.

 

I will omit the Chuo-Line platform that is on floor +1. There are then transitions for 4 tracks, i.e. two lines as well as the two-lane transition of the Shinkansen, which will offer us much more driving fun.

 

In total, that's 10 tracks for Shinkansen and 8 tracks for the Cape Gauge (which I would also like to expand to 10 or 12 - but only vll.).

In terms of time, I want to plan the current train station with a few more tracks from the good old days, which have only just begun (although I will make 2 versions, the one with a mixed time and the current one). I am really aware of the dimensions this train station will take on, but I plan around 6m, possibly only 4.8m (which ideally fits our standard or its grid size).

As you can see, I always have projects going on, especially since I want to optically revise my previous modules so that they are qualitatively better and should be more like the "real" one (which I only became aware of when I built 2 dioramas for Trainsetter).

 

So it was for the beginning, questions, suggestions and ideas are of course welcome (possibly also wishes for possible planning on your part regarding compatibility ?!). In any case, ALL progress comes in here 🙂

 

 

Step 1.0:

 

I have now planned the right driveway as the first version 1.0, period from the 1970s. In doing so, I saved a bit of switches (especially the DGV). Above in blue is the Shinkansen Main Line, which is higher than the rest and will later lead over other modules. The gray uncolored are the long-distance trains and red the local traffic, which has a 4-track crossing.

 

At the moment I'm thinking of removing the top two tracks from the mainline lines and planning two more tracks to the Shinkansen (just that it's a bit more busy).

As you can see, the station is planned as an intersection station where two IG nippoN standard modules can be found on both sides.

 

 

Many greetings

Patrick

 

P.S. I would like to apologize for the long absence. There were just too many hobby activities in forums and translating into English is not as easy for me as some others.

[Kamome442]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:43 AM, shiniji said:

The building should of course be reproduced 1: 1 as an eye-catcher, which will come at the very end (I saw a small replica to what extent the size and details can be derived from it).

 

Hi Patrick,

That is quite an undertaking, I will be following this one with interest. Such an iconic station and well worthy of being created in model form. I did draw up scale elevations for the Marunouchi and Yaesu entrances a few years back. They are not complete as the Chuo platforms block the view to the back of the Marunouchi building but if this would be useful let me know and I will have a look for them.

Joe

[shiniji]

Hello joe,

 

that sounds very interesting!

So far I have searched the Internet for a long time and have found different sizes.

Plan B was to get the main dimensions via google earth and then to convert them into a 3D model made of Styrodur.

Plan C was the idea to buy Woody Joe's model (but over 600 € ?! wow 😕 ) and then convert that. So far everything has gone very badly.

 

If you have something in that direction that can be used, I would be very grateful.

[cteno4]

Patrick,

 

there is the cardstock 1/450 kit of the station that is not too expensive. Might be a good starting point for planning and details. Luckily a lot of the windows are similar so 3D printing is not too bad ans you could scale out walls from the model. Roof and dome would be the big challenge.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193394793288?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1W1kouWzDSmWL7imWHCIO1g36&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=193394793288&targetid=4580702890871448&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418640321&mkgroupid=1233652283797640&rlsatarget=pla-4580702890871448&abcId=9300602&merchantid=51291&msclkid=ee7639353c66162852fe582d20f663b8
 

quite a project to take on! Would be grand. You’ll need a huge setup space. Would be nice to then have a separate loop of Shinkansen modules. We keep sniffing around that idea with Ttrak, but it greatly expands the space and tables needed so it keeps getting shoved onto the back burner.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

ps btw I have the above cardstock kit and it’s very well done

[Kamome442]

1 hour ago, shiniji said:

that sounds very interesting!

So far I have searched the Internet for a long time and have found different sizes.

Plan B was to get the main dimensions via google earth and then to convert them into a 3D model made of Styrodur.

 

OK cool, I will have a hunt for the external hard drive it's saved on. I used google earth to create the drawings I did so I can't guarantee its 100% accurate but it should be pretty close. If you had a 3D model your could also 3D print it, something that size would easily run to over 100 pieces but I could be done. From what I remember there is a lot of repetition in the design so it should break down into sections fairly easily.

 

1 hour ago, shiniji said:

Plan C was the idea to buy Woody Joe's model (but over 600 € ?! wow 😕 )

 

😵 Oh boy that is steep! I had to look it up, a beautiful model I have to say. 

 

59 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

there is the cardstock 1/450 kit of the station that is not too expensive. Might be a good starting point for planning and details.

 

That looks like a lovely model. Would it be possible to take measurements from the parts then scale them up and laser cut it in wood?

[cteno4]

21 minutes ago, Kamome442 said:

That looks like a lovely model. Would it be possible to take measurements from the parts then scale them up and laser cut it in wood?

 

im guessing it would be close enough to do this. the whole thing looks very well presented so im assuming they were not doing the quick and dirty papercraft kits. its literally a book with lots of history. well printed and colors are not the uber bold, simplistic of cheap card stock printies but more of a watercolor wash effect so its not super uniform. its not a simple kit! scan it all and then measure and plan from there. nice thing is its got all the insets and details there to plan from. would be a good starter to just model and then work on figuring out how you would want to build then at 1/150.

 

you could probably just scan and do overlay plans for wood laser cut. then etch brass plans for windows and 3d print for window frames. luckily most are pretty standard pattern so make one and then just clone or slightly modify for size. lots of odd 3d roof details that would need some modeling. roof probably etched brass im guessing to get the rounded forms bent in well on the dome and shingle.

 

correction its 1/500 scale. i got it for the possiblity of using on t scale. woody joe is 1/350 scale.

 

amazon.co.jp has it 

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Classic-Station-Tokyo-Paper-Construction/dp/4785100923/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=東京駅模型&qid=1628975786&sr=8-4

 

cheers

 

jeff

[200系]

Patrick,

 

Like other have said, I'm looking forward to seeing your interpretation of Tōkyō station taking shape.

However, as you were asking for feedback, there are a couple of things I noticed in your track plan which I'd like to point out. Though as I'm not really much of a model railroader, my main interest will always be real world (Japanese) railways (with regards to model railroads I'm mostly interested in the rolling stock and operations, though I can really enjoy a well built/designed layout), as such I will be likely looking at your trackplan through a different lens, so I hope my input can be of value to you.

 

 

 

the first thing I've noticed with your trackplan, is that it relies quite extensively on switches and crossovers, at least from the perspective of a Japanese layout.

 

Japanese stations (and the railway system in general), and Tōkyō in particular, have historically always relied on relatively lean track layouts, i.e. they don't rely on the masses of switches that can be often seen on the approaches to large European stations. As such, things like for example single/double slip switches are relatively rare in Japan, and they are generally only used in locations where there are no other viable alternatives. Though there are some locations where they are still in use, and were generally used more often in earlier times, even during J.N.R. times these switches were removed whenever this was possible, the same is true for many switches in general. As a good example, on the Nankai Kōyama line the first crossover after leaving Nankai Namba can be found on the approach to Sakai Higashi station, around 10km away.

 

As such I feel like you're trying to funnel too many tracks through too small an area (and as such with too many switches) for to the tracks you've reserved for, as you refer to it as as, long distance trains. Though I'm not sure how it could be done differently (unless you want to accurately represent the layout of the real station, though that might be difficult because of the module restrictions), it does feel off to me, if that makes sense?

Though, as a side note, I'm inclined to point out that in the real station, these tracks would (likely?) portray the tracks for the Tōkaidō (main), Yokosuka (prior to 1972) and Tōhoku (main) lines, correct? As such they would be handling a mix of local (read suburban), rapid and (semi/limited) express services, so not just long distance trains. It's a bit of a side tangent, I know, but it may change how you look at that section from an operational point of view (and as such, the trackwork in that section).

 

 

The same is true for the commuter (local as you call them) lines in your plan.

In the post-war period the newly established J.N.R. started with the physical separation of  the Keihin-Tōhoku and Yamanote lines around 1954, with further changes made during the era of high economic growth, especially with the implementation of the 5 way commuting operation starting in 1965 (for Tōkyō station this would mean the separation of the Tōkaidō and the Yokosuka lines, the latter being moved underground with the construction of the Tōkyō tunnel in 1972, and would be connected to the Sōbu-Rapid line (which was also part of the same plan) by 1974 (though through service wouldn't start until 1979)). As such the commuter lines in the Kantō area are generally operated independently from one another with no to little operational between one another since at least the 1970's (and even the 1914 built viaduct originally contained 2 sets of separate double tracks, one for local (electric) trains and the other for the Tōkaidō main line).

 

With this in mind, the ladder track between track 1~4 feels a bit off to me. Though such a crossover does exist, between (the new) Tanaka Gateway and Shinagawa, this is only there to facilitate access to the yard, and as such it isn't used as a general crossover. From an operational perspective, the real life equivalent of tracks 1 and 4 on your plan would be used by the Keihin-Tōhoku Line, while track 2 and 3 would be used by the Yamanote line, and while there are some crossovers between the southbound Keihin-Tōhoku/Yamanote Line (inner) and the northbound Keihin-Tōhoku/Yamanote line (outer) A ladder track like this wouldn't really be used in real life.

 

 

And this brings me to the third part of your trackplan, the shinkansen.

 

The things I mentioned earlier are also, and perhaps even more so, applicable to the shinkansen. As the shinkansen were of course constructed from the ground up as an entirely separate railway network the trackwork is all extremely lean and efficient.

 

This can be seen in the current, post 1979 configuration of the Tōkaidō shinkansen platforms at Tōkyō. In the current configuration a grand total of 4 switches and a single (double) crossover are used to service the 6 tracks used by the Tōkaidō Shinkansen. With the original, 1964/1965~1975/1979 configuration they needed just 2 switches and a single crossover. The same is true for the Tōhoku shinkansen, as the post 1997 (current) configuration is using a single (double) crossover as well as 2 switches.

With this in mind, the second crossover (the one on the left) would serve no operational purpose whatsoever in the setting you created. This has to do with the fact that any shinkansen entering via the ascending track (coming into the station) would be able to to reach tracks 2,3 and 4 through the crossover and the switches after said crossover. Similarly trains exiting the station can easily enter the descending track without the need for the additional crossover as well. Trains exiting from tracks 2,3 and 4 will automatically enter the descending line anyway, while trains exiting from track 1 can just use the final crossover to switch to the descending line.

 

As the station approach, and the specific track it is connected to at that moment, functions as a single ATC block section, no more than one train can enter that section at a time anyway, so as I already mentioned there would also be no additional operational value in using a crossover in that position.

 

 

Anyway, those were just my observations, nothing more nothing less, I hope it didn't come across as overly critical, as that is certainly not my intention.

 

To finish of my post, the following links may be helpful to you:

 

https://smtrc.jp/town-archives/city/marunouchi/p04.html

Includes a number of photos and (layout) drawings, mainly historical.

 

https://www.koho.metro.tokyo.lg.jp/PHOTO/contents/sp1/category/008.html

Shōwa era aerial photographs, includes a number of pictures of Tōkyō station (if you click on a photograph, and then right click and select 'open image in new tab'  you should be able to view a high res version of said picture).

 

Colorized aerial overview taken after the end of the war, not the most pleasant imagery but it does give a good overview of the station/track layout in that time period (taken in the southern direction):

 

Cheers!

 

Sander

[shiniji]

Hello 🙂

 

@cteno4 thank you sooo much for the Link 😄 i bought the book last night via your ebay link.

and yes, I also had the idea to enlarge it. I can design details later with my 3D printer. so I hope that my plan D (?) works 😅

 

@Kamome442 Thank you very much for your effort, the whole thing would help me to compare the data later and see if there are any deviations.

 

 

@200系 hello sander, 

that's a lot of text 🙂 thank you for your constructive criticism, that helps me a lot.

Because I also planned many track plans for clubs, I had to deal with the operational processes very often. In the case of Tokyo station, however, I tried to stick to the original plan, which I found on this website I'm a Link (which I can highly recommend if you are looking for track plan from Japan.)

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the planning has a few guidelines for me in which I have to plan, such as the size of the module standard, are the parts still transportable later and a few more points. During the planning I also noticed that some switch connections are duplicated or can actually be omitted. Then I have the choice: do I stick to the original track plan or do I change it so that I have an operationally cheaper version. The story behind Tokyo station helped me a bit to understand the mass of tracks and their separation from one another.

 

First of all, I would like to design a basic version of the track plan based on the original and then improve it. And here I know from experience that only then will the track plan develop into what is technically and operationally possible.

 

therefore your explanations on the subject help me a lot, thank you very much.

Your links are also great, thank you here too 🙂

 

best wishes

Patrick

 

[Kamome442]

On 8/14/2021 at 10:27 PM, cteno4 said:

you could probably just scan and do overlay plans for wood laser cut. then etch brass plans for windows and 3d print for window frames.

 

I like that idea Jeff, the structure would go together pretty quickly using laser cut wood then having 3D prints and etches for the finer details. You could design lip on the window frames so they push fit into the wall and to align the etches.

 

Patrick - I have found the drawings there are not as complete as I remember them being so I will spend a couple of days tidying them up. I had forgotten how big this building actually is, I had to double check the dimensions because I thought I had drawn it in the wrong scale! All I can say is it will be quite the model 😃

 

 

[cteno4]

14 minutes ago, Kamome442 said:

I like that idea Jeff, the structure would go together pretty quickly using laser cut wood then having 3D prints and etches for the finer details. You could design lip on the window frames so they push fit into the wall and to align the etches.

Yep that’s what I was thinking, having insets for the brass mullion pieces into the 3D printed window frames and then inset lip on window frames to pop into the holes in the lasercut walls so all would self align which is a big necessity on this building with the rows of big window frames going so far and the eye will notice if any just a little out of alignment. Would be a very very careful hand scratch build, but with new technologies helps get around a lot of those. Also laser etching the subtle brick pattern may be the best way to get that right.

 

it really is a sprawling building!

 

looking forward to see what Patrick does and then the kit he will produce for sale for us all!

 

Cheers,

 

jeff

[Kamome442]

Hey Partick,

Well that was more than a couple of days! I have finally got something worth sharing.

 

I wanted to check some of the dimensions and found a JR East article about the restoration that had lots of juicy information. I ended up redrawing a large chunk from scratch. I will say it is no where near 100% accurate but it should give you a solid starting point. Here is a .pdf, it is drawn to scale so you can get a sense of the dimensions.

Tokyo Station Marunouchi Building.pdf

 

On 8/20/2021 at 7:42 PM, cteno4 said:

Also laser etching the subtle brick pattern may be the best way to get that right.

 

That would be a good plan and save a lot of time messing around with brick paper/textured styrene. According to the article the dimensions of the brick used scale to around 0.72mm by 0.46mm. For architectural models they quite often just etch in the horizontal lines, it looks very convincing as long as you don't get too close.

 

On 8/20/2021 at 7:42 PM, cteno4 said:

looking forward to see what Patrick does and then the kit he will produce for sale for us all!

 

Make sure you price it carefully, as I have to say the longer I worked on the drawing to more 600 € seemed reasonable 😆 

I look forward to seeing this one grow.

Joe

[shiniji]

Hello joe,

 

Thank you very, very, very much for your effort and the .jpg with which I have a complete picture of the details. now I could convert the scale percentage of the Card model book.

Because the Messe Wien is canceled, I will probably start with the Marunouchi Building in October 🙂 Next week I will do the first test print with special cardboard and see if it fits. Then it goes back to thinking about the details and their production for my building.

 

Incidentally, I still have a resin model of the train station from the Z-gauge collection series by Deagostini (which has a smaller scale), unfortunately due to the missing scale AND that it shows the state before the renovation, unfortunately not to be used for the conversion.

[shiniji]

Hello Guys 🙂

 

After revising the plan for Tokyo Station several times, I started all over again. First I changed the module boxes, now there are 8 modules, each 70cm x 120cm (here it is possible to enlarge the modules depending on the size of the Marunouchi Building to 80cm width each). My track plan is roughly the same as it was in the 70s (I think 😮 ). I will probably delete the red spots on my sketch (sometimes unnecessary for operational reasons) and blue are additional switch connections to enable operation on the 4-track main line with 2-track modules.

 

Unfortunately, the Marunouchi route had to go because it would have required an additional track at the module transition.

As you can see, there is a concept behind it 🙂

Regarding the Marunouchi Building: after a few attempts with the paper kit failed, I have now ordered the model from Woody Joe (ufff, that costs :/) and will derive a 1:150 model from the kit to really get it right. Small parts will be created later with a 3D resin printer 🙂

 

The whole thing has one disadvantage: the rural train station that I actually wanted to build for the time being is off the table for now because I use the resources (tracks) for this 😉 The finished module boxes from it won't be bad (although I still have plans for a container station and a refinery... )

 

I am attaching a few pictures of the sketch and plans.

 

 

[cteno4]

Wow! 
 

jeff

[shiniji]

wait. I forgot the current status of the track plan from today. At the moment, the right entrance to the station is giving me a headache... it's damn complicated