Kato KiHa 110 is it good?

[Christopher_R]

Greetings people,

 

 

I'm planning on purchasing a Kato KiHa 110 2 car set (Kato 10-1165), I like to know:

 

1. Is the powered unit all wheel drive with flywheel?

 

2. Is it smooth running with decent slow speed performance?

 

3. Is it a nice model?

 

.....and of course your experiences with it?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10212138

 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I have a number of the slightly older release (Kato 10-347), which saw significant use on my old exhibition layout with no issues. They are excellent, reliable models and do come recommended.

 

I cannot comment on the motor for the version you are quoting (mine don't have flywheels for example (looking at the link you provided, it doesn't look like the new version has either) but are all wheel drive on the motor coach).

Edited June 21, 2021 by Claude_Dreyfus

[Christopher_R]

@Claude_Dreyfus thanks my friend, great to hear that.

 

Just one little thing.....how was slow speed performance?

 

Thanks in advance and best regards!

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I had no issue the units in terms of slow speed running. They would happily come to a gentle stop without a problem. Examples of the unit's running qualities can be seen in this video (from 10:55 onwards).

 

https://youtu.be/9ob8-zPC2K4

 

 

 

[disturbman]

As far as I know, no issues were ever reported about these specific models.

 

If you want a really good motor, I recommend Greenmax coreless motors. Their performances are superb.

 

Greenmax produced a few Kiha 110 and 111/112. I think some are up for pre-orders and a few shops, like RHR, must still have some of the older releases in stock.

Edited June 22, 2021 by disturbman

[Christopher_R]

@Claude_Dreyfus, nice nice. 

 

Thanks again my friend. That's really good for something without a flywheel.

 

Best regards.

[Christopher_R]

@disturbmanthanks for the recommendation and will keep that on the cards.

 

Since you mentioned GreenMax..... I have a KiHa 150-0 that I opened up the drive chassis (for maintenance) and found 2 motors in it (this one has 2 cored motors). I am aware that coreless motors make for smoother and quieter running. 

 

Like to ask two questions:

 

1. Does the new ones with coreless motors come with 2 motors each or single center motor driving both trucks?

 

2. I have being told that using a controller (DC) with Pulse Width Modulation (PMW) can harm them coreless motors. What's your experience with this?

 

Thanks in advance and regards!

[cteno4]

Christopher,

 

my 2 cents

 

1) it’s odd, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Japanese N scale chassis with 2 motors in it. all Japanese N scale trains i have seen are just a single motor to power two trucks. In a few situations only one truck is powered but rare. But I’ve torn apart few greenmax mechs.

 

2) AFAIK PWM is only an issue for cordless motors at very low frequencies, most modern controllers with PWM and DCC decoders are high frequency and not a problem for careless motors.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[disturbman]

I haven't had to open one of the Greenmax coreless motors yet, but I have also never seen 2 motors in a Japanese N scale train. Single motor with two shafts driving two trucks, yes. Two motors, no.

My experience, so far, has been good and I have not killed one of my coreless motors with my PWM controller. I have been dubious that any Japanese model maker would manufacture and bring to market a motor that would be burned out by the controllers that are most likely to be used by its customers. That's a sure way to close shop.

[chadbag]

2 hours ago, disturbman said:

I haven't had to open one of the Greenmax coreless motors yet, but I have also never seen 2 motors in a Japanese N scale train. Single motor with two shafts driving two trucks, yes. Two motors, no.

My experience, so far, has been good and I have not killed one of my coreless motors with my PWM controller. I have been dubious that any Japanese model maker would manufacture and bring to market a motor that would be burned out by the controllers that are most likely to be used by its customers. That's a sure way to close shop.

 

 

Supposedly for coreless motors, some DCC decoders need special CV settings to adjust for the coreless motor frequencies etc. I know it was recommended for my D&H decoders.   I know we are talking "DC" PWM, but my understanding is that the actual output of a DCC decoder on the motor side is a similar signal.

 

Anyway, below are two Greenmax JR103 motor cars.  The first, the Orange one (Greenmax 50595 -- Sayonara Osaka Loop Line set) is a coreless motor with two large flywheels.  I've added a D&H PD05A decoder to this so there is some extra wiring there.

 

The second, the "Teal" like color,  is a pre-coreless Greenmax JR103 (Greenmax 4417 Hanwa Line JR103).  It indeed has 2 motors, one on each end, with a sturdy shaft (not a dog bone like so many newer ones) on each to drive each end.   (Again this has had a DCC decoder installed so there is some extra wiring -- hopefully I can put it back together.  Not an easy one to take apart.)

 

I thought I remembered the non-coreless Greenmax having two motors but I couldn't remember so I had to go get mine and look.

 

My understanding is that Greenmax model numbers that are 5 digit are newer coreless motor versions and 4 digit ones are the older non-coreless.

 

[chadbag]

Note that I don't recommend taking the older Greenmax apart (non coreless models) unless you have to.  It was a PITA to get back together and I ended up breaking another one of the tabs that hold the top plastic piece in place on the metal frame (broke two off when installing the decoder as well).  And I ended up breaking the two motor wires off the decoder when taking it apart.  Luckily that should be easy to fix once I get my soldering station back to my downstairs desk (I had been doing some home soldering up stairs recently).  They are very strongly put together...

 

[cteno4]

wow thats a new one on me with a motor for each truck i guess i never broke one of those down!

 

jeff

[Christopher_R]

@disturbman thanks. BTW, what is/are the controller(s) you are using? 

 

Also, was going to reply with the picture of my GreenMax KiHa 150 open, but @chadbag beat me to it! Thanks @chadbag!

 

IMO, it is good to know that GreenMax has settled for the single motor setup. I always thought my KiHa 150 was a rough runner with both motors  (what I think) going 'out of synch' at times. I could actually observe the power car 'shaking' as she went down the track. But then again, just my opinion. Pretty sure the new ones with the centrally mounted motor must be really smooth. 

 

Thanks again for all the info my friends.

 

13 hours ago, cteno4 said:

wow thats a new one on me with a motor for each truck i guess i never broke one of those down!

 

jeff

 

Yes, I was taken a back myself when I did open up my GreenMax. Never thought I would see such a set up especially N scale/gauge having been in HO before.

 

14 hours ago, chadbag said:

Note that I don't recommend taking the older Greenmax apart (non coreless models) unless you have to.  It was a PITA to get back together and I ended up breaking another one of the tabs that hold the top plastic piece in place on the metal frame (broke two off when installing the decoder as well).  And I ended up breaking the two motor wires off the decoder when taking it apart.  Luckily that should be easy to fix once I get my soldering station back to my downstairs desk (I had been doing some home soldering up stairs recently).  They are very strongly put together...

 

 

Yes, PITA indeed, yet became easier over time!

 

Regards 

[disturbman]

The older Greenmax motors were arguably the worst of the Big Four’s. I had one, and never wanted another one after that. Their new motors are my favourite.

 

I have been wondering, anyone knows what’s the logic behind Greenmax 3xxxx and 5xxxx item numbering? I am not finding any logic behind it.

 

@Christopher_R I use a Tomix N-1001-CL.

[Christopher_R]

1 hour ago, disturbman said:

 

I have been wondering, anyone knows what’s the logic behind Greenmax 3xxxx and 5xxxx item numbering? I am not finding any logic behind it.

 

 

Like @chadbag says, it is most likely the change from the older non coreless to coreless motor and little more interior details.....maybe also the change over to models that also have GreenMax's own lighting kit instead of the Tomix kit.

 

Thanks again and best regards.

[disturbman]

I know that the change from 4xxx to 3xxxx and 5xxxx was to reflect the change in power units. I am looking for a reason for the double numbering for the models with the new coreless motors.

[chadbag]

4 minutes ago, disturbman said:

I know that the change from 4xxx to 3xxxx and 5xxxx was to reflect the change in power units. I am looking for a reason for the double numbering for the models with the new coreless motors.

 

Do they reference complete sets vs individual models?   My 5xxxx are book case sets while my (at least the one I looked at) 3xxxx is a smaller Kiha 200 individual in a smaller container.

 

[disturbman]

Good idea, but, no. They also have book case numbered 3xxxx, and smaller VHS size cases numbered 5xxxx.

Ah! It's normal train versus special editions/runs/liveries. All 5xxxx are special liveries or editions. Going by HS it seems 90% correct, but there seem to be a few exceptions. Would need to look into it more.

[chadbag]

32 minutes ago, disturbman said:

Good idea, but, no. They also have book case numbered 3xxxx, and smaller VHS size cases numbered 5xxxx.
 

 

All my book cases are special liveries (at least in the 5 digit numbering system).  Good find!