Signals in iTrain

[gavino200]

I finally posted on the iTrain forum about Japanese signals and got a super helpful answer from a very knowledgeable dutch guy. So Japanese signals can be modelled in iTrain. You just have to do a bit of manual configuration. 

 

So my plan will be to model a combination of two, three, and four-light signals, controlled by iTrain. I'll be using a Digikeijs system to actuate (is that the right word?) the signals, and I'll likely be making my own signal heads, probably using a combination of AliExpress signal heads and converted non-functional Green Max signals. 

 

I'll be using this thread for the electronic side of the operation. I'll make a separate thread for making/converting the signals themselves. 

 

Anyone working on signals, feel free to also post here even if you're using different hardware/software. 

 

This is a link to the iTrain thread referenced above. 

[Martijn Meerts]

That's a pretty good description on how to set things up. Signals have always been a bit of a mystery to me really, the only ones I ever worked with were German ones, and those are generally well supported in most control software 🙂

 

Btw, the iTrain forum isn't readable without an account, so for most people that link will be a bit useless.

 

[gavino200]

7 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

That's a pretty good description on how to set things up. Signals have always been a bit of a mystery to me really, the only ones I ever worked with were German ones, and those are generally well supported in most control software 🙂

 

Yes, super helpful. They're still a mystery to me. But much less so than a week ago. If you're adding Japanese signals too, I'm sure we can crowd-source the solutions we need.

 

7 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

 

Btw, the iTrain forum isn't readable without an account, so for most people that link will be a bit useless.

 

 

Thanks, I didn't realize that. If anyone wants the content I can PM it to them. I probably shouldn't openly post it if that isn't the forum's preference. 

[Martijn Meerts]

I was planning on adding signals to the N-scale layout, using 3D printed signals and probably some custom pcboards etc.

 

However, since my focus is on the H0-scale layout for now, I've not looked much into the signals. For the H0 project I'll be using form signals, and I have a few Tomix N-scale form signals to base those on.

 

If I know the dimensions of the light signals, and could still make a 3D model of then, and try to print them in N-scale.

 

[gavino200]

52 minutes ago, Martijn Meerts said:

 

If I know the dimensions of the light signals, and could still make a 3D model of then, and try to print them in N-scale.

 

 

That would be awesome. I ordered some bits and pieces. A Tomix four-light signal, some chinese signal heads, and I pre-ordered some Green Max non-working signals. I can post dimensions, scaled photos and maybe scan them if that's possible, when they start trickling in. 

[Martijn Meerts]

That would help. I thought I had some of the Green Max ones as well, but since my attic is currently a storage room again with all the stuff from the kitchen and living room, I can't look for them. And I'm not sure I actually ended up buying them anyway.

 

It should be fairly easy to make the various versions, they're pretty simple models. It could be printed to allow a custom pcboard to slot into the signal head from the back. Would be doable to also do a small pcboard in the foot of the signal, where the wires from the head solder onto, and then a small plug so you can easily plop them into sockets that you build into the landscape.

[gavino200]

So, the plot thickens. I already have a Digikeijs unit that I'll be starting out with. I know that I can control it using iTrains. All good. 

 

But the Digikeijs unit si just a DCC decoder with eight outputs. It's expensive for what it is. 

 

There are lots of guides out there describing how to make an arduino based decoder to do the same thing.

I'm planning on going this route after using up my Digikeijs units. 

 

I need to do one of two things, maybe both.

1. Find out how to integrate the Digikeijs system with a non-proprietary signal decoder. I'm fairly (but not fully) sure that this will be possible. The Digikeijs system is, after all a sort of chameleon system designed to work with a variety of brands. 

2. Find a way of integrating arduino systems directly with iTrain. That would basically be an arduino decoder that takes input directly from USB. 

[gavino200]

On 6/4/2021 at 7:59 AM, Martijn Meerts said:

Btw, the iTrain forum isn't readable without an account, so for most people that link will be a bit useless.

 

 

Ah, I didn't realize that. Below is the conversation that I had on the iTrain forum regarding Japanese signals.

 

iTrain is set up to allow you to choose signals from different countries from a drop-down menu. Japan isn't inclued. However, the program is designed to allow people to configure signals for other countries including Japan. Of note, the signals that appear on the computer screen will not be Japanese but the outputs can be configured so that the physical signals on the layout will be correct for Japan. The developer, Xander, says that he won't be changing this anytime soon due to minimal demand, but the work-around is good enough for me.

 

This is a summary of the Japanese signal system from wikipedia.

 

Below, is a description of how to configure Japanese signals in iTrain. I'll unpack and simplify this after I've done it myself. Below is the conversation with the iTrain folks.

 

Me: Hi. I model Japanese railroads I'm building a layout that I will be automating, using iTrain and a Digikeijs system. I hope to add signals. From reading the iTrain manual it seems that signal protocols for many countries are available. Japan, however doesn't seem to be included.
The Japanese four aspect signal system is very similar to the British system minus the junction feather signals. The main difference is that the two yellow light aspects are reversed. In Japan it goes green, single yellow, double yellow, red.
Is there any adjustment that I can make to allow me to use an authentic Japanese system?

 

iTrain guy: Are you sure about that? Because I would expect a different order of the yellow lamps:
green - double yellow - single yellow - red.
Because that's what we had in the Netherlands at the end of 1957. And because of faile safe when one yellow lamp is out of order.
But if you want to use all the force that wrong order, you can.
You can do this by making a different (exchange) choice in the Output column.
See page 94 of the Manual.
Which preset of which Digikeijs module do you apply?

 

Me: Nope it's the opposite. I've checked it with many sources. What you have in the Netherlands is the same as the British system.
this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... nce_ja.png is the Japanese system condensed into a single graphic from the "Japanese Signals" wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_railway_signals
There are a few variations. A two-light signal, a three light signal, two different types of four light signal, and a five light signal which isn't common.
I could use the three light signal - Green - yellow - red. It would work.
However I like how the four-light signals look. I could use the British system and accept the "error" but it would be a shame.
The two four light signals are as follows. The first is very close to the British system. The second, less so.

Type A: green, single yellow, double yellow, red
Type B: green, yellow/green, single yellow, red

I had assumed that the signals would be controlled by iTrains. I assumed I'd be governing all higher functions through iTunes with the Digikeijs system as a kind of hardware slave to the iTrain software master.
To actuate the actual signals I'll be using the DR4018, which is a kind of multiple function decoder in one box. this is connected to the Digikeijs DR5000. Currently the DR4018 is controlling turnouts on a practice layout that I'm using to learn iTrain with. Actual signal heads, likely I'll be making them out of non-working Green Max signals. There are lots of Japanese guides showing how to do it. The only Japanese signal controllers I've seen are all homemade arduino type units. I could go that route too but I'd really like to have everything controlled in one place by iTrain.

 

 

iTrain guy: So exchange 3 and 4 in the column Uitgang/Output.

 

 

You can use Type A.
But which presets in CV47/131/132/133/134 do you want?

The easy way is CV47=7: 4x NS three-light signal with number box (number box to 2nd yellow)
1 = Green
2 = Yellow
4 = Yellow with digit
0 = Red
But you must use three columns with Output. See table with R's and G's. See page 17 of the DR4018 Manual.
Each signal must have 3 addresses and a 4th address for dimming the lights.

 

 

 

 

Me: Thanks, you rock!

 

iTrain guy: You may need to change the rules of the Outputs at Caution and Preliminary Caution.
The screen then shows incorrect signal images, but the correct signal images are visible on the track.

If it can't be done the way it should be, then it has to be done as it can be.

 

iTrain developer: The signals on the screen cannot be changed, but you can make it work correctly on the layout. As the usage of Japanese signals is not very common I will not add this signalling system anytime soon.

 

 

I'll add to this post and edit it as I learn more. If anyone has a contribution to make, please post it below and I'll add it.

 

 

[Madsing]

Wow, that reminds me of everything I had to learn about Rocrail. But you are totally right, it’s very important to have iTrain controlling the signals (and level crossings, if you plan to have any). I think that there is one more thing you have to worry about: once iTrain can properly control the signals (i.e. talk to the Digikeijs box to change their aspect/color), will it be able to set them to the correct aspect based on the Japanese block system? That’s something with which I really struggled with Rocrail. Rocrail has no clue about that and I had to resort to low level programming to make it work.

[gavino200]

9 minutes ago, Madsing said:

 once iTrain can properly control the signals (i.e. talk to the Digikeijs box to change their aspect/color), will it be able to set them to the correct aspect based on the Japanese block system? That’s something with which I really struggled with Rocrail. Rocrail has no clue about that and I had to resort to low level programming to make it work.

 

Ah, so the answer given by the iTrain guys relies on the assumption that the Japanese system has similar logic to other systems but just different signals.

 

So if Japanese signals don't have the same logic then can the decision logic be changed in iTrain? I don't know, but I doubt it. They probably would have mentioned that if it were a possibility.

 

I don't know a lot about train signals, but I tried to understand them a few months ago when this thread started. From what I could gather Japanese signals seem fairly similar to British signals. I think just remapping the output from a British signal scheme would be enough for me. Honestly, if I got it more correct I probably wouldn't even remember what was correct about it after a few months.

Edited February 25, 2022 by gavino200

[Madsing]

I know nothing about European train signals, and I just know a little bit about Japanese signals, what I have gathered from Wikipedia and various web sites. It seems that Rocrail implements the German Deutsche Bahn signaling system, so I was not in luck. If iTrain supports the British system and it is similar to the Japanese system then it should be easier to work with iTrain.

I now have about ten signals connected on the layout, I have manually programmed their behavior in Rocrail based on what I could see and learn online, but I am really eager to learn more and validate (or change) what I have done.

[gavino200]

16 minutes ago, Madsing said:

I know nothing about European train signals, and I just know a little bit about Japanese signals, what I have gathered from Wikipedia and various web sites. It seems that Rocrail implements the German Deutsche Bahn signaling system, so I was not in luck. If iTrain supports the British system and it is similar to the Japanese system then it should be easier to work with iTrain.

 

This YouTuber has some decent short videos about the basics of some different signalling systems. I actually liked the British system best, as I found it quite logical. Some of the others were a tad difficult for me.

 

 

Quote

I now have about ten signals connected on the layout, I have manually programmed their behavior in Rocrail based on what I could see and learn online, but I am really eager to learn more and validate (or change) what I have done.

 

That's great! I'm should be able to experiment with signals fairly soon. I'm looking forward to it. I think it'll be really cool to have realistic signals changing all by themselves as the trains go around.

Edited February 25, 2022 by gavino200

[Madsing]

Interesting video, indeed. So it confirms that the British system is really similar to the Japanese system (at least what I know/understand of it).

One difference is that I think that in Japan they tend to place two signals side by side before a junction, one for the main route and one for the diverging route. I have built such a signal for my layout. For now, it always indicates the red aspect for the route not taken, depending on the position of the switch following the signal. That's something I'd like to validate.

And yes, it is really cool to have signals changing all by themselves. That's basic but I really like to see the signals turning from green to red when the train is passing!

[Scoot]

Just a new member,

I followed your Itrain diagram now everything works .on my layout.great

so with my signals ,

I looked at clips of operation inside of a signal box at there board diagram. then cab ride video .

then see what was best setup for my layout .

I built my own signals from plastic molds from CR Signals in the UK

I found the three aspect is better than the two aspect,

I use the dr4018 and train tech.

Andrew.

 

 

[Scoot]

Hi all.

another I have just finished ,is setting up a three aspect signal .with a feather or indicator, showing ,with the DR4018.

I now can get the Amber to stay in a  solid state or flashing ,

I'm Getting there.

Andrew