Control panel trouble

[Tom C]

I've just spent a few evenings creating a controle panel for Akita Mountain and I'm having some issues.



And the flip side



The bank of three switches are for the points on the layout and work great. They are window controlles from a car as I needed momentry contact double pole reversing switches to opporate the Tomix point motors and these are just the ticket 

Where I'm having trouble is;

1
I wanted to be able to dim the lights in the buildings on the layout so I fitted this:  http://ebay.fr/itm/Low-Voltage-DC-PW...IAAOSw3fJf9aL3  and an on/off switch. It's the one under the bank of three switches on the left. I am using LED's on the layout and this controler has no effect on them ? If I wire in a grain of wheet bulb, it starts bright and dims as I turn the controller up ???? The controller gets very hot after only a short time !! Any thoughts ?   

2
I am using the same controlller (on the right hand side of the panel) to control the speed of the loco. When I turn the power on, the loco runs flat out regardless of what I do with the controller  Anymore thoughts ?

Help much appreceated.

[inobu]

Cutting corner when it comes to power is not worth it.  The potential fire it causes exceeds the savings.

The terminal blocks can withstand the heat where as the wood will burn.

 

Heat is an indication of excessive current. That can be from poor connections, overloading the capacity of the power supply or

miss wiring of the panel.

 

There should be separate power supplies for the Lights and track. 

 

Inobu

 

Thay appose to They......I think I I need to subscribe to Grammarly ....

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by inobu

[gavino200]

If your dimmer switch is not dimming (or slowing your trains) then likely the resistance range of your potentiometers is much too low. These things come in a large variety of ranges. You need to experiment to find what range you need for the job.

 

As the dimmer switch is making little difference, it's likely that those units were designed for a lower current or voltage application. Is that where the heat is coming from? I'd also echo what inobu says. Your circuitry looks very clean with the exception of those awful looking solder blobs. inobu is the king of clean circuitry. His guidance is golden. 

[Madsing]

That’s interesting. Your wiring seems correct (even if I agree with Inobu’s remark). The PWM module you are using is interesting. I cannot follow the link you provided, however. Could you check if this is the same module is this one: https://www.amazon.sg/Voltage-1-8v-Motor-Speed-Controller/dp/B07MK1SKRT

Or this one: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32953823579.html (there is a demonstration video with a motor and an LED). 

Questions:

- What power supply are you using?

- Are the LEDs already wired with series resistors?

- Are your LEDs always on? Or always off?

- Does the LED on the PWM module work?

[inobu]

3 minutes ago, Madsing said:

That’s interesting. Your wiring seems correct (even if I agree with Inobu’s remark). The PWM module you are using is interesting. I cannot follow the link you provided, however. Could you check if this is the same module is this one: https://www.amazon.sg/Voltage-1-8v-Motor-Speed-Controller/dp/B07MK1SKRT

Or this one: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32953823579.html (there is a demonstration video with a motor and an LED). 

Questions:

- What power supply are you using?

- Are the LEDs already wired with series resistors?

- Are your LEDs always on? Or always off?

- Does the LED on the PWM module work?

I think it is this one and the PWM has to be playing into the trouble as well for the dimmer switch.

 

Inobu

[Madsing]

30 minutes ago, inobu said:

I think it is this one and the PWM has to be playing into the trouble as well for the dimmer switch.

Yes. Correct. It’s the 1803BK PWM module. It seems to be a pretty standard module. Do you have any idea why it wouldn’t work here?

 

Marc

[inobu]

27 minutes ago, Madsing said:

Yes. Correct. It’s the 1803BK PWM module. It seems to be a pretty standard module. Do you have any idea why it wouldn’t work here?

 

Marc

It could be a number of things.

 

If there is a nick in the wire (see photo) with just a few strands running the circuit then you are going to see a high resistance fault.

That seems to match the symptom and cause. 

 

LED's needs a special dimmer switch so its hard to tell.

 

Inobu

[Tom C]

First off, A big thank you to you all for taking the time to reply 👍

 

11 hours ago, inobu said:

The terminal blocks can withstand the heat where as the wood will burn.

The only termlnal blocks I can find don't link the wires which is why I soldered them to screw heads !!! Is there a special name for a block that links several wires into one ? I live in the back end of nowhere so I can only buy what I can find on the ebay.

 

The damaged wire that you indecate has all its strands intact, I just touched it with the soldering iron ! Ops, don't tell anyone 🙃  

 

I am using a 12v power supply.

 

The LED's are ready wired with series resistors.

 

The LED's remain on all the time even though the controller 'clicks' off ? 

 

The LED's dim ever so slightly as I turn the controller clockwise !!!

 

The LED's on the controllers remain on all the time.

 

As you've seen, I'm no ecectrition and my knowlage of electrics is almost nill. Taking this into concederation, my home brewed solution would be to bypass the circuit boards on the controllers and wire direct to the mechanical part that turns. Would this at least give me track control ?

 

A few points about my layout, it is a simple loop of track with a siding and a passing loop. I don't run dcc. The locos I intend to use have very small coreless motors. I'm not into opporating trains, I just like to see them run. In light of this, I'm not sure I need the PMW part of the controller ?

 

Should I scrap the controllers that I have and buy some others ? 

 

Should I abandon the idea of trying to dim LED's and create physical shelds for them in my buildings. Or, paint them to dim them ?

 

Thanks again guys.

 

Tom

 

 

[gavino200]

6 hours ago, Tom C said:

 

 

The only termlnal blocks I can find don't link the wires which is why I soldered them to screw heads !!! Is there a special name for a block that links several wires into one ? I live in the back end of nowhere so I can only buy what I can find on the ebay.

 

There are two ways of doing it. You can buy jumpers that fit into the terminal blocks.

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/products/terminal-strip-jumper-8-position

 

Or you can just cut very short wire pieces and jump the terminals on one side together. This picture isn't a terminal block, but it's the same principal.

 

https://control.com/uploads/textbooks/wiring_01.jpg

 

6 hours ago, Tom C said:

 

I am using a 12v power supply.

 

The LED's are ready wired with series resistors.

 

The LED's remain on all the time even though the controller 'clicks' off ? 

 

The LED's dim ever so slightly as I turn the controller clockwise !!!

 

The LED's on the controllers remain on all the time.

 

12V is actually quite a lot for LEDs. I just a 5V but that's even much more that what's necessary. I encountered this problem when I started using LEDs on my layout. 

 

The LEDs don't change brightness linearly as you increase the resistance. Instead you tend to see almost no change until you get to a certain sweet spot where a small increase in resistance starts to make a big difference in brightness. 

 

The dimmer switch is just an extra resistor that goes from it's full resistance to nothing as you turn the knob. The problem (I think) is that the combined resistance of the dimmer's full resistance and your protective resistor aren't enough to dimm the LEDs.

 

You can fix this by changing the protective resistor with a higher value resistor. You'll have to experiment with this to find a resistor that's the right value, so that it's almost at the right brightness. Then the dimmer switch (potentiometer), will fine tune the brightness. 

 

It's possible that you'll need a dimmer with more resistance, but I bet the above will work.

 

The whole process is a PITA but it will be worth it. 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Tom C said:

 

As you've seen, I'm no ecectrition and my knowlage of electrics is almost nill. Taking this into concederation, my home brewed solution would be to bypass the circuit boards on the controllers and wire direct to the mechanical part that turns. Would this at least give me track control ?

 

 

Should I abandon the idea of trying to dim LED's and create physical shelds for them in my buildings. Or, paint them to dim them ?

 

 

I also have zero electronics knowledge except what I've learned playing with these trains. But I haven't yet found anything that I couldn't do by reading and asking questions to the wizards here. 

 

My two cents is to keep working on the LEDs to get the right brightness using the circuitry. It's really a pain. But lighting is maybe the single most effect addition for bringing a layout to life. It's really worth it to get it right, even though it can be painful. 

 

There are a lot of different ways of doing it. It could be that you'll want different brightness for different structures for the effect you want. Or you might me ok with them all controlled by a single dimmer.

 

1. Singer dimmer for all LEDs

2.Tiny dimmer (potentiometer) in each structure.

3.Thiny dimmer under the layout for each structure (from experience I'd advise against this)

4. Experiment with each structure and choose a resistor that sets the light just right for each structure. The resistor goes inside right next to the LED.

 

I've tried all except 2. (which is whay @cteno4uses).

3. is a logistic disaster "How does it look now?.....How about now?...."

I tend to do 4. now, but 1. may work for the icy kingdom. 

 

Good luck and don't give up. The effect will be worth the effort. 

[cteno4]

Tom,

 

I would suggest taking your dimmers off the control panel and just hook one up directly to a loop of track and give it a whirl. make sure the wires are goign to the right input/output terminals on the board. Ive used these little pwm motor control boards for trains before, but not tested them widely and they do vary some, but it should work. i have to work on a few other little train electronics things tonigh, ill dig out my pwm boards (mine look very much like yours from my memory) and try.

 

do the same with the leds. ill dig out one of mine and experiment. there are some pwm dimmers built for 12v led circuits (ie light strips), but they are usually digital buttons and not an analog knob like this.

 

on things like this i always do a quick jury rigged wiring to make sure everything is working as intended before i assemble them all up as when you jump right to final assembling for the first time you tend to focus on how things are fitting together its easy to get something backwards in your head due to the greater assembly. just wiring it up on the bench with some jumper wires focuses you to go stepwise on how the circuit should go together.

 

what leds are you hooking them to? just and led, an led with a current limiting resistor, or a chunk of led strip? 12v will need some current limiting with a resistor (led strips have those built in). many prewired leds come with a limiting resistor wired into the lead of the right value for full brightness (usually way more than you want in most scenery situations). 

 

your 12v supply is just a regular wall wart transformer, correct?

 

my suggestion for lighting control and especially with your fine scenery eye would be to think about using cheap little variable resistors and a single limiting resistor for each building or scenery element you are doing. i think you will really find having this fine control will be really satisfying to you. means a little more wiring and deciding where to put the little adjustable variable resistor so you can access it and play with the levels. each led circuit is like 25 cents for wire, led, resistor and variable resistor and its a simple circuit of just wring the led to your power buss and putting the limiting resistor and variable resistor somewhere (doesnt matter on what lead or in what order) in the circuit. you can wire these up in a little piece of blank printed circuit board easily to make a mini control panel to adjust at a central point or just put the variable resistor in the building and wire building to the power buss but that means you need to remove the building (or get cleaver and put a little hole in the side of the building you can put a screw driver into adjust the variable resistor). you can get fancy and use some magnets even to hold buildings in place and be your electrical connection to the scenery base as well. gavin recently documented his station build this way.

 

i usually like using 5v for a power buss as then resistors individual leds only have to knock off 2v, not 9v, so way less wasted energy to heat. 5v power supplies are also ubiquitous. 12v works well for doing 2 or 3 leds in series, but you can also cheat and do a few leds in parallel when needed (not the perfect way to do it but works usually) or have a 12v buss for doing led strips of other series leds. you have a single fixed limiting resistor, this is just enough to take off the excess voltage (generally white is 3v with a safety margin in there, actually like 3.4v) if the variable resistor is set to passing all the current (ie full on) so you dont pump the full voltage of your power supply thru the led (over current) and burn out the led. then as you increase the variable resistor's resistance it will dim the led. so with 5v supply a white led needs a 100 ohm resistor to limit the current to its full level. then if you put in a 2k or 5k variable resistor you can then dim the led down to barely a glow or full brightness. this can really make a huge difference in what lighting effect you want at each led. 

 

here are the really inexpensive variable resistors (usually called trimmer pots). these only have one turn and not super fine control, but in most situations they work fine. you dont want to go cranking these 100 times, they are meant to basically set and then leave. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20pcs-RM065-RM-065-Trimpot-Trimmer-Potentiometer-Variable-Resistor-Ho-YJCA/303670602397?hash=item46b42daa9d:g:0QoAAOSwXq5ZqRgt

 

ones with a bit more body but cost more

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-3362P-502-3362-P-5K-ohm-High-Precision-Variable-Resistor-Potentiometer/142671834971?hash=item2137e76f5b:g:HDMAAOSw1i5bpevW

 

if you want finer control there are these kinds of variable resistors that take 20 turns to go their whole range. bit larger and more expensive.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-202-2K-ohm-3296W-Precision-Trimmer-Multiturn-Preset-Top-Potentiometer-NEW/393224202641?hash=item5b8dfd2991:g:RK0AAOSwIuVc6~rX

 

you can easily wire these up on a bit of blank pcb, i can get you some pictures to walk you thru how to wire these up. just a little soldering of the components onto the pcb and then small bits of lead wire to complete the circuit.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-Universal-Prototype-Electronic-Component-Paper-PCB-Test-Circuit-Board-5-7cm/193934809161?hash=item2d276a5849:g:CioAAOSwKThgQMYR

 

for wiring leds i love wrapping wire. its really small 30g wire that is twisted wire that has been pre tinned. this means when you strip it the wire core is strudy but still more flexible than a solid core wire. fine twisted wire is a real pain to strip as easy to break strands. wrapping wire is tough stuff as its used a lot in airplanes and such for low power sensors and stuff. its also cheapest wire you can buy usually 305m on a roll for $5-15. very fine so it snakes thru things well and solders really well as its pretinned wire! you can get it in many colors to help organize things if you need to. if you want to pair up wires then just slip some little bits of heat shrink every 5-10 cm and it works well to give you a really small but robust wire to extend out to an led circuit.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/300Meters-30AWG-0-5mm-Wire-Line-Airline-Single-Copper-Wire-1pcs-OK-wire-handmade/191931619888?hash=item2cb0041a30:g:n~YAAOSwiT1cFGZE

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Tom C]

Oh wow, way to go. Thank you. I'll look into these tomorrow as I must get my beauty sleep now ! I tell you, it's hard work being a model 😂😂 It's not all sitting on your backside 😂

[gavino200]

35 minutes ago, Tom C said:

Oh wow, way to go. Thank you. I'll look into these tomorrow as I must get my beauty sleep now ! I tell you, it's hard work being a model 😂😂 It's not all sitting on your backside 😂

 

Tell me about it! No one appreciates the hard work we put into it. I spent the whole day creating a new look. Blue steel, bite my dust!

[inobu]

Do a cost and time analysis. Add everything up and make the comparison. Sometimes its cheaper just to buy it.

I just completed a build that needed lights. I was going to wire them myself but it was more beneficial to complete the job.

 

I used these. The time and effort to order and make the parts myself as not worth it.

 

 

 

[cteno4]

I disagree, these are simple to make, takes a few minutes to source the parts and way more economical, especially if you are doing a lot of light control. Of course you can just spend the money if you want to but knowing the option to make your own is simple and cheap is always a good option. I really enjoy just putting together something that does what I need like this. To each his own.

 

jeff

[inobu]

19 hours ago, cteno4 said:

I disagree, these are simple to make, takes a few minutes to source the parts and way more economical, especially if you are doing a lot of light control. Of course you can just spend the money if you want to but knowing the option to make your own is simple and cheap is always a good option. I really enjoy just putting together something that does what I need like this. To each his own.

 

jeff

Jeff,

 

Like I said before its based on Time, Effort and Money. It all depends on how much you have of the three and how much you want to spend on either of the three. 

 

Inobu 

[cteno4]

My point is the time and effort is pretty easy to roll your own in this case and something that is easy to expand your skills and save some bucks and customize to your needs better. Yes if you want to just control lighting on a half dozen leds you can spend $40+ to get a turn key operation or spend just a few bucks and an hour or two to learn how to do your own. There is an intangible, but useful return on learning something new and having a go at making your own that should not be overlooked. I agree that’s no return for you as you know all that stuff and you are doing professional work some of the time and thus having something more finished looking off the shelf is a good ROI, but many are more limited on funds (or where they budget their train funds) and also are scared of doing electrical, and this sort of project can really help folks get over that and learn some new skills and come up with versatile solutions for their unique needs.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

There's no downside to knowing what the options are. That lighting kit is probably a gamechanger for someone who has zero time or is a bit of a butter fingers. Tom definitely fits in neither of these categories. I'd encourage him to "roll his own". There are a few tricks to using LEDs, but not many. It doesn't take long before someone with no previous experience to be comfortable lighting up anything they want.  

[Tom C]

On 3/28/2021 at 5:28 PM, inobu said:

Do a cost and time analysis. Add everything up and make the comparison. Sometimes its cheaper just to buy it.

Hi Inobu,

Those look really neat. I'm not a big fan of playing with electricaty and if it were not for the fact that I would need three of them, which equates to one and a half hours of embarrassing modeling for the art class, I would definatly go for them. As it is, I have put in an order for some of the goodies in the links kindly posted by Cteno4 and see how I get on.

 

I have experimented with the little PMW controler. I hitched the power direct from the 12v transformer and ran the 'out' leads to the track. The loco runs even with the controler 'clicked' off. When I turn the controler 'up' clockwise, the loco slows down a bit but not much It was clearly marked on the add for the controler that it was good for 12v. I'll try the link again; https://www.ebay.fr/itm/1X-Low-Voltage-DC-PWM-Motor-Speed-Controller-Module-1-8V-3V-5V-6V-12V-2A-F9N-v1y/224081509536 It looks to be ther one identified by yourselves. I tried both controlers incase one was a duff, and I got the same result. I then tried using the output of my reguler train controler (12v), but with it turned way down low. Same result 🙃I'm stumpt !!

 

On 3/29/2021 at 5:44 PM, gavino200 said:

I'd encourage him to "roll his own"

😂 The only thing smoking in my house is some little thing on the PMW cercuit board when I give it the berries 🤣🤣

 

Again, thank you all for taking the time to help me. I will repay you soon with another crazy story on the Akita Mountain build thread. Hmm, that might seem like punishment 😂

[cteno4]

Ok I had a similar little pWM motor controller in my “play with” box, works like a charm on a few different mechs. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-3V-35V-PWM-DC-Motor-Speed-Controller-Adjustable-Switch-LED-Fan-Dimmer-Hot/174574557607
 

when I turn the pot to the clicked off position the little led on the boards turns off.  Sure your input polarity is correct?

 

I have another one of a slightly different design (just like the one you just linked to) that I need to dig out again. I had tested it on some mechs before and they were fine as well.

 

electrical stuff is mainly just getting the experience fiddling with it to learn the basics and then that can get you quite far.

 

cheers,

 

jeff