How many blocks for my station?

[Madsing]

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

The significance of this just hit me. Three blocks per platform works perfectly for me. My station is broken into three modules. West, central, and east. They'll each have to be wired separately, so it makes sense to give each it's own feedback. I'll run with that unless I find some other logic.

 

Do you really need feedback on the central "block"? On my layout I did not connect the centre track to any feedback.

(NB: In Rocrail, a block is a section of track where the train may stop. A block usually needs several sensors, or feedback modules. So one platform (usually) means one block, not two or three. But maybe iTrain uses a different naming.)

On my layout, each block has two sensors. One sensor at one end, another sensor at the other end, and the central part of the track stays without sensor. Each sensor section is short (140mm) while the central part is much longer.

When the train arrives from the east, the east sensor serves as "enter" sensor, the train slows down and stops at the west sensor.

When the train arrives from the west, the west sensor serves as "enter" sensor, the train slows down and stops at the east sensor.

[gavino200]

8 minutes ago, Madsing said:

 

Do you really need feedback on the central "block"? On my layout I did not connect the centre track to any feedback.

(NB: In Rocrail, a block is a section of track where the train may stop. A block usually needs several sensors, or feedback modules. So one platform (usually) means one block, not two or three. But maybe iTrain uses a different naming.)

On my layout, each block has two sensors. One sensor at one end, another sensor at the other end, and the central part of the track stays without sensor. Each sensor section is short (140mm) while the central part is much longer.

When the train arrives from the east, the east sensor serves as "enter" sensor, the train slows down and stops at the west sensor.

When the train arrives from the west, the west sensor serves as "enter" sensor, the train slows down and stops at the east sensor.

 

Ah, probably you're right. I'm really just beginning to understand my system. The tutorials I've been using have recommended two feedbacks per block, but haven't talked about having a central part without a feedback. But I think iTrain functions the same way as Rocrail, because (now that I think of it) when a train enters one feedback of a two feedback block, the whole block lights up. So, I'm assuming it's the grouping of the feedbacks together that matter. So it must be that if I group two feedbacks together with a central undetected segment into a block it will function the same way. 

 

I'll have to play with that on my practice layout. Thanks for the tip. 

 

It sounds like you drive trains in both directions. How does that affect your signals? Are you going to have signals pointing in both directions? Or do you have one preferred direction that you'll use when demonstrating/using the signals?

[gavino200]

Now this is a truly horrible video. Mainly only because of the presenter's odd voice. But quite informative. Dealing with US signals. I realized I watched the entire Swiss signal video without getting what "divergent" meant. I figured it meant a turnout, but I didn't intuit a through vs. diverging message. 

 

 

[gavino200]

I found this while looking for Japanese signals videos. Pointing and calling. I have to say I was both mesmerized and baffled by this method when I saw it in Japan. It seems like a good idea though. 

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

`So Japanese signals are similar to and based on British signals, but seemingly without the junction aspect. Sometimes an extra speed indication is added though. I think I can use and make sense of this if necessary. I still have to get a better idea of where the various different signals are used - 2, 3, 4, 5 light signals. A slight mix would look better. And if it's more prototypical, all the better. 

 

I seen to switch not to looking at the problem from the other side. I need to look at iTrain and see what kind of signaling aspects it supports. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_railway_signals

[Madsing]

21 hours ago, gavino200 said:

It sounds like you drive trains in both directions. How does that affect your signals? Are you going to have signals pointing in both directions? Or do you have one preferred direction that you'll use when demonstrating/using the signals?

 

(Everything I describe here is work in progress.)

I have decided routes for the layout, which describe which trains go where. See the attached file. The color arrows indicate the routes. Most of them are loops with occasional trips to the maintenance yard. Some of them are commuting trains. After doing that, I can see for each block (and platform) in which direction(s) the train will go. Some of the blocks have to accept trains in two directions, some of the blocks in one only. I am going to base my signals on these routes. For now, I have decided that I would not have signals on the elevated tracks as it will run the Shinkansen trains.

 

 

For example, this is the underground station. The platforms 5 and 6 will have trains in both directions, while all trains at platform 7 will go from east to west.

What do you think?

Train Layout Project 28 Train Routes.pdf

[gavino200]

Thanks. I think your plan looks very reasonable. I understand train signals a whole lot more than I did a few days ago, but I still have a lot to learn. I haven't looked yet a what people do with their model train signals. I don't want to restrict my traffic too much as I really like variety. If I have lines with traffic in both directions I'll have to think hard about weather I'll have signals facing both directions. If I do, I'll probably have to be creative with how I place them, so as to avoid clusters of signals pointing both ways, which I think probably wouldn't look great. 

[gavino200]

I have a basic understanding of how Japanese signals work. They're mostly like British signals except they don't have that "feather" diverge indicator. For the most part there's a mixture of three, four, and five, light signals. I don't have a good understanding of where each is found. Before I get further into that aspect of things, though, I'm going to switch gears and look at what iTunes is capable of doing. No point worrying about Japanese five light signals if my software isn't compatible with them. 

 

A nice little demo of iTrain, working through a digikeijs module to control some British signals.

 

 

[gavino200]

There aren't many videos out there discussing signaling in iTrain. I found this one which is good. It's in German but he speaks nice and slowly, so I could understand quite well. It mainly talks about a function in iTrain that allows you to deal in two different ways with two signals that are in the same block. They can both have the same address and essentially be functional clones, or they can have different addresses. 

 

He uses a two-light/ three aspect system. Green, green/red, and red. I definitely want to use at least three-color signals. 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The iTrain 5 manual is very clear on signals. They have a "library" of possible signal patterns (aspects?), and a range of countries whose signal patterns they simulate. Basically, you just tell iTrain where the signals are and what country's system you're using and it does the rest. Japan is not included, but Britain, whose signals are similar enough (for me) is included. I'm going to set my layout up with British signals minus the feather for junctions, which Japanese signals don't have. 

 

I'm quite happy about this. Of all the signals I looked at, I found British signals the most simple and intuitive. Japanese also, with the exception of understanding where they used the various different levels of signals - 3, 4, or 5 light signals. 

 

This video below is a nice simple guide to how British signals work. It's a four aspect, four light sistem. I think these look good without looking too complex. I'm going to start acquiring a few of these to play around with. 

 

I'm still unsure if I just need two light signals for my station platforms. Enter/don't enter or exit/don't exit. I think some variety (two, three, and four light signals) would give a nice illusion of 'realness'. 

 

I'm going to leave this thread for now and use it for it's original intent (station blocks). I'm going to open a signal's thread for the actual signals project. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Linked pictures are from my iTrain 5 manual.

Edited May 31, 2021 by gavino200

[gavino200]

It seems that the British and Japanese single yellow and double yellow lights are the opposite of each other. I wonder if there's a way of adjusting for that. Of course the simple alternative would be to just use three light signals. Or to just ignore this fairly minor difference. 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:鉄道信号現示の変化.gif

[gavino200]

Now that I know a little bit about detection and iTrain I could probably answer this question for myself. There's really no reason why I'd need more than one block per station platform. The software is pretty sophisticated and should be able to work out exactly where to stop.

 

Having said that I'm now experimenting with a mock-station. We'll see how it turns out. Time to go back and re-read everyone's answers here. I'm sure they'll make more sense to me now.