Block detection and automation test/practice layout

[chadbag]

59 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

 

4. Surprisingly, Digikeijs doesn't support Linux, or even Mac. They're PC only. I was shocked by this and couldn't believe it at first, but after searching the Digikeijs forum it's definitely the case. A LOT of people are unhappy about this. So whenever I need to access the Digikeijs units directly, I'll have to plug in a PC. No big deal. I did find descriptions of people who have been successful getting a RasPi loaded train control software package to talk to the DR5000, so I know it's possible. I just haven't worked out how to do it yet. 

 

 

 

I have an old Mac I loaded Windows on to do this, but when I first got the DR-5000, I was able to use a virtual Windows VM on my Mac to talk to the DR-5000 without issue.  So if you use VirtualBox, Parallels, or VMWare Fusion (the one I have), you should be able to run the Digikeijs software directly in the VM.

 

I have no idea if this will work but I assume WINE works on your Pi version of Linux, and you may be able to get the Digikeijs SW to run under that????

 

In any case, a lot of the stuff can be done using the DIgikeijs control language, or whatever it is called, I believe, which is one of the modes you can set for network access, which should allow you to use any app that might be able to support that.   Don't know if there is any, but just thinking out loud.  

 

I assume you want to talk to it directly to do direct configuration of stuff, vs anything that is actually train related, as that you should be able to do from train software that understands the DR-5000.

[Madsing]

6 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Surprisingly, Digikeijs doesn't support Linux, or even Mac.

The Z21 is also "PC only". But that only means that the Z21 maintenance application is PC only, and I almost never have to use it. Maybe once every few months to upgrade the firmware or other deep configuration stuff. Like @chadbag, I have used a virtualization software to run the Z21 application on my main iMac (and in other rare cases I really needed Windows). I have used Parallels for many years but my copy has stopped working as I did not upgrade. I see that VMWare Fusion is now free for personal use so maybe I will give it a try.

 

[gavino200]

It's time to set up this practice/experimentation layout again. It's been a couple of months and I've probably forgotten everything I learned. Knowing now that this will be a recurring theme, I'm going to make a 'bread-crumb trail' of journal entries as I go, to help with future re-learnings.

 

As far as I remember I had just learned to make the trains stop where they were supposed to. After I re-learn this I'm going to try to understand how I need to wire and block-plan a station and a storage yard.

 

I've also decided what computer set-up to use. For now I'll run iTrain on my PC laptop. Later I'll build a very small Mini-ATX PC to run it on. I should be able to just leave it on in hibernation mode all or almost allways, so I won't have to wait for boot-up etc before starting to play with the trains.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I'll connect this up tomorrow probably. I'll probably need to learn everything from scratch. This time I'll keep a journal.

 

[Madsing]

1 hour ago, gavino200 said:

I'll probably need to learn everything from scratch. This time I'll keep a journal.

Learning the second time is ten times faster, and it's proven that learning, forgetting, then learning again is the best way to remember forever.

That said, I have learned (😀) along the way to keep notes about everything I do. I use Apple's Note application so I can access my notes everywhere, I literally have hundreds of them (311 today exactly). I also use git (https://git-scm.com) for source code version control.

 

[gavino200]

We've completely caught back up with where we were before.

Block detection working

Turnout control working

Decoder programming working

Reaction delay shuttle working

Speed measurements underway

 

Next up will be playing with automatic routes, adding wagons/cabs, and pairing the Z21 WVANmaus with iTrain

 

I encountered a big problem due to forgetting about using the "magnet function" to join the blocks. After giving up, I decided to ask for help at the iTrain forum. I'm glad I did. The forum is an amazing resource. When you post a topic, they ask you to attach the file that contains the data for your layout. It's actually a very small file. The moderators/manufacturers then run it in demo and tell you what the mistakes are. I think it's very easy for them to see what's wrong. Problem solved in a matter of hours. They also told me about the "diagnosis" function in iTrain. It tells you what steps are missing.

 

The practice layout up and running

 

 

Speed measurements underway

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by gavino200

[Pauljag900]

This deffo was nt the right place😂😂😂😂

please feel free to move it,sorry😂😂😂👍👍

[gavino200]

No apologies necessary. Always good to see you when you have time to stop by. I bet your post will go unseen in my little automation thread. Later I can move it to somewhere that gets more traffic.

 

🙂

[Madsing]

Let's make a new thread for Year End Wishes!

[Pauljag900]

1 hour ago, Madsing said:

 

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

No apologies necessary. Always good to see you when you have time to stop by. I bet your post will go unseen in my little automation thread. Later I can move it to somewhere that gets more traf

 

🙂

That would be great Gavin if you do nt mind,thank you👍👍😀

Edited December 22, 2021 by Pauljag900

[cteno4]

I made a new topic out of your post Paul, seemed like it needed to be elevated and I expect many will want to chime in!

 

 

[Pauljag900]

Hi Jeff,

thanks mate,I read Gavins post and then wrote it without realising where I was!,

in fact,that seems to be happening a lot lately😂😂😂

[gavino200]

Speed trials are all done. Today I connected my WLANmaus directly to iTrain. It's actually not hard to do once you find good instructions. This is the process below.

 

You need to be able to enter your Wifi password into the WLANmaus. The maus can take upper and lower case letters, numbers, and about 20 special characters. These are listed one page 40 of the maus manual. If your Wifi password has special characters that aren't included, you'll have to change it. I got around that by creating a guest password with only the characters accepted buy the maus. That way I didn't have to upset the whole house by interrupting everyone's wifi.

 

1. Set the SSID (name of your wifi address) and wifi password on the maus to the same SSID/password as on the computer running iTrain. The maus can't handle any wifi speed over 2.4 GHz, the way.

 

2. Get the IP address of the computer running iTrain. Mine is a PC so I get this by going to the "command" function (MSDOS), and entering in "IPconfig" The number I want is the one listed as V4. Enter this IP address into the maus.

 

3. Go to iTrain. Settings -> preferences -> Remote control -> Check the box next to WLANmaus. It's the only one. If every thing is right then, VLANmaus will appear on your iTrain throttle with a 1 next to it. If something is wrong you'll get a 0 instead of a 1.

 

4. Enter your locos into the maus. menu -> loco -> New -> enter the name and address.

 

5. Select a loco in iTrain. Select the same loco in the maus. You're now controlling the iTrain throttle directly with the maus.

 

I used the following guide from YouTube. It's in German. That's why I extracted the steps above.

 

 

 

 

Next up I'll add some wagons to make Trains and play with routes for a while.

Edited December 26, 2021 by gavino200

[Martijn Meerts]

I think the iTrain community is fairly small, but most people there really know the program through and through.  As long as you don't ask for major new features, they tend to help you real quick 🙂

 

[gavino200]

Slow, slow, progress. I'm still working with a simple oval. I managed to prepare a lot of locos, and I thought is was about to begin with a more advanced layout - stations, yards etc.

 

However, I hit a learning curve adding wagons and getting various trains to stop on cue. Right now I have two trains stopping on cue.

 

Especially confusing is getting my Kato trains with FL12/EM13/FL12 decoder setup to work.

 

Is there any special way that these decoders need to be arranged/configured in order to get them to work with iTrain? @Martijn Meerts, @Madsing?

[Martijn Meerts]

I don't think there are any special settings for them no, for iTrain they should just be standard DCC decoders.

[Madsing]

I am not using iTrain but Rocrail, but same reply from my side. What do you have in mind, Gavin?

Starting, stopping locos and setting their speed are very basic, standard, DCC commands. The EM13 responds to them very well.

A couple of questions:

- Do you use 14, 28 or 128 speed steps? Make sure the decoders and iTrain use the same settings.

- Did you set the acceleration and deceleration CVs? Acceleration is CV03. Deceleration is CV04.

Marc

 

[gavino200]

Thanks guys. Your answers were enough for me to switch my focus and work out the problem. There was a section of track with poor connection. There was enough current to run in manual, but maybe not high enough signal quality to receive instructions. I changed a few joiners for new ones and the problem was solved. One of the developers on the iTrain forum says that the Digikeijs system provides a low quality DCC signal due to a cheap power supply, and recommends changing the power supply. I'll do that.

 

I thought it must have something to do with the function decoders, as I was having a separate problem with them. I wasn't able to get the software invert function to work for them, but they work fine with one reversed as per Kato design. So no bother.

 

Next up, I need to work out how to configure a Digitrax DZ123 decoder to work with iTrain. Switching CV3 and CV4 to 0 doesn't work for this decoder. I can't set the reaction delay. I have to got to a huge number to stop it from overshooting and then suddenly it undershoots by a ton. I've been told it's definitely a BEMF issue. A lot of people on the iTrain forum say they haven't been able to get many Digitrax decoders to work. One of the developers says there are no decoders that absolutely won't work. So I have a hunch that it's possible. So I'm going to find out how.

 

The decoder is in my Super Rail Cargo and was a real pain to install so I'd rather solve the mystery than reinstall.

 

After that I'm going to add sidings and stations and have some fun running multiple trains.

 

 

 

[Martijn Meerts]

I've never heard anything about the Digikeijs system putting out a bad DCC signal on a cheap power supply, but I have heard of the command station being destroyed by cheap power supplies. I think there is (or was at least) a notification of that on the Digikeijs site. They had a whole batch of bad power supplies that they included with the stations that needed to be swapped out.

 

I'm no fan of the FL12. I have a couple of them, but half the time they won't except programming commands. I have them in my E5/E6 combo, so I'm in no hurry to replace them, but if I do start running those trains more often, they'll definitely be replaced by some ESU decoders.

 

There's nothing in iTrain that would handle certain decoders differently. It just sends standard DCC commands to the command station, which then passes it on to the decoder. So if anything, there might be an issue with the command station (the bad DCC signal maybe?) or the decoders themselves. I can't imagine it's the command station, because that too sends out standardised DCC commands.

 

Looking at the manual, it doesn't seem the DZ123 has much along the lines of motor control finetuning, so not much you can do there. I have some trains that run terrible with default settings, but after adjusting the motor control parameters they run absolutely smooth.

[gavino200]

2 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

Looking at the manual, it doesn't seem the DZ123 has much along the lines of motor control finetuning, so not much you can do there. I have some trains that run terrible with default settings, but after adjusting the motor control parameters they run absolutely smooth.

 

Thanks Martijn. What sort of things in the motor control parameters did you adjust?

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, first, I set the max speed using CV53. It lowers the speed without actually using up any speed steps. So you'll have 128 speed steps regardless of whether the trains runs at 20kmh or 300kmh.

 

From there, I play around with CV51, 52, 54 and 55. 51 and 52 are specifically for slow running and what the threshold is from slow to normal. 54 is how much the decoder controls the motor (BEMF basically), and 55 is for the reaction delay of the motor. If for example you have a large flywheel on the motor, 55 should be increased.

 

There are no specific settings that work for all trains, sometimes even the exact same loco will have (slightly) different settings depending on how much they've run. It depends on a lot of factors really. What I normally do is first is set the max speed of a loco based on what the prototype would do. From there I play around with 51 and 52 to make sure the loco runs well at low speeds, and stops smoothly as well. Then I run the train on an oval and use POM to play around with 54 and 55 at various speeds. After that I might need to adjust 51 and 52 a bit again.

 

Of course, this is for an ESU LokPilot / LokSound. No idea how it works for other decoders, even if they have these CVs available for programming.

 

[gavino200]

Thanks Martijn. I think I'll pause a bit before moving on to the next stage of my iTrain learning, and take a while to focus on the various decoders I have and how to understand them more. I'm going to start with the troublesome Dz123 and go from there.

[Madsing]

In the Digitrax decoders (including the EM13) the maximum speed (actually maximum voltage applied to the motor by the decoder) is in CV05. I always start by measuring and setting this value. I usually do a graph like that:

 

 

It's the speed measurement (in km/h, prototype speed) on the vertical axis vs the DCC command (in %) on the horizontal axis. Here it's the graph of my Kato DD51 (which is fitted with a Digitrax DN163K1D decoder), but they all look more or less the same.

I then try to determine which DCC speed step corresponds to the prototype's maximum speed. The maximum speed of the DD51 is 95 km/h (as per Wikipedia), and we can see on the graph that, to get that speed, we need to set the DCC speed command to 30% (which is 38/127 speed steps, or 77/255). As the V Max voltage has to be expressed in a fraction of 255, I set CV05 to 77.

I sometimes do the same with V Mid (CV06), which is the voltage to be applied at half the maximum speed. However, we can see on the graph that it's pretty linear between 0 and V Max, so setting V Mid usually does not matter.

There is another less important voltage, it's V Start (CV02). I usually leave it at zero as all my decoders have BEMF so the locomotives start smoothly at the minimum voltage. For now, I always set the Acceleration Rate (CV03) to 10 (higher values lead to longer acceleration times) and the Deceleration Rate (CV04) to 5. The Deceleration Rate is not so important because Rocrail has its own settings and it takes care of computing the deceleration to make sure that the train smoothly stops at the right place.

 

[Martijn Meerts]

CV05 is the normal CV for changing the speed, but I noticed that, in most cases, that just limits the speed steps to where it'll not use a lot of them. You won't notice it much, and the command station will still use 128 speed steps (or however many it uses internally), but in the decoder they look to get translated back down to fewer steps. Especially with slow trains I noticed braking to not be smooth.

 

CV53 on the other hand changes the voltage passed on to the decoder, but leaves the steps intact.

 

The Digitrax ones might handle CV03 differently of course, there's a fair chance it does what CV53 does for the ESU decoders.

 

Either way, you're not likely to notice much difference between the 2 methods unless you're doing stuff like shunting with steam locomotives, where it becomes rather obvious when the speed curve isn't smooth.

 

Oh, and acceleration and deceleration I always set to 0, and just let iTrain take care of that since iTrain can base it off all the parameters you specify on both the loco and the cars it's pulling.

 

[Madsing]

The Digitrax decoders don't have CV53, and I have always assumed that they handle CV03 "correctly" (i.e. the same way ESU decoders handle CV53) but I will check, I have never really verified that.

 

There is one more point I forgot to mention in my previous post. After really measuring the speed of the trains, I noticed significant differences (i.e. 10~15%) between when I start running trains (I mean, when they are "cold", the first time of the day), and 10 to 20 minutes later. They are first slower, and they reach their normal speed after a few minutes of operation. Have you ever noticed that?