A non-Japanese layout

[Martijn Meerts]

 

Forgive the ignorant question, but when you say computer control, do you mean pre-programmed train movements to simulate and operating schedule, or just using a computer rather than a set of controllers?

 

Pre-programmed, although not prototypical.

 

Of course, it's possible to run trains manually (either via computer or controllers) as well as have the computer program control them. Keeping track of some 25-30 trains on the layout is a bit much without computer ;)

[scott]

25-30!!! I can't wait to see an overview video of this running once it's done.

[Martijn Meerts]

Quick little (non-visual for now ;)) update.

 

I've started wiring up a few blocks and turnouts so that I can test some things out. Half the freight line is wired up and tested (the other half needs to be built first ;)) and the main station has 7 out of 8 blocks wired up and tested, as well as turnouts on 1 end connected. I've also started installing the first of the copper wire loops which I use to solder all the feeders to. In total there'll be 8 or 9 of those loops, 2 for the power of the central control, 2 for the power of the booster, 2 for turnouts and 2 for signals and lighting. Depending on how the lighting decoders will be installed, it might require an additional loop. We have by now found out though that, compared to the old layout, we'll be needing a lot more track, turnouts, turnout decoders and occupancy detectors. Something my father doesn't like all that much, since he's paying for most of it =)

 

There are at the moment quite a few issues with running, partially because the track hasn't been cleaned completely yet, but partially also because of problematic turnouts. Interestingly enough, especially the newer turnouts can cause derailing, I guess Minitrix really isn't built like it used to anymore. Might end up having to solder a couple more feeder wires to the turnouts in various positions.

 

The bad news is that one of the locomotives broke down. It had been running bad for a while, but it's an old locomotive and just needs a bit of servicing. But at the moment it seems the decoder is fried, as it re-programmed itself the a different address and settings, and it can't be controlled anymore. It's just on max speed all the time, you put the thing on the tracks and off it goes at max speed. That's actually the 2nd train with that exact problem. Both are actually re-programmed to the same address and settings, which makes me suspect it's some sort of error code, but I can't find any info about it whatsoever.

[scott]

it's an old locomotive ... it re-programmed itself the a different address and settings, and it can't be controlled anymore.

 

voluntary retirement  :-)

[Martijn Meerts]

it's an old locomotive ... it re-programmed itself the a different address and settings, and it can't be controlled anymore.

 

voluntary retirement  :-)

 

It hasn't reached the retirement age yet, it's "only" about 18-20 years old ;)

 

It has been through something though. It's an old locomotive that my oldest brother bought a LONG time ago when he was building a layout as well. At the time his house burnt down, along with most his trains. This particular loco had it's shell burnt completely off, but the frame, motor and bogies were just fine. All it needed was a new shell really.

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, finally some new pictures ;)

 

We've put the main station in place, although it's not fastened yet. The initial idea was to add all the details to the entire main station area, but it's going to take too long, and without the station in place, we can't really test anything. It'll be a bit more of a problem to wire everything up with the station in place, but so be it ;)

 

Image 053:

Overview shot of the right "leg" of the layout, this is the main station area. On the right there's 2 stub tracks that are for a factory which will be placed next to the tracks.

 

Image 054:

This is the main problem area really, lots of tracks crossing each other, and getting the clearances right was quite a challenge. Made more difficult by the fact that the tracks on the level just below the station should be visible.

 

Image 055:

One of the occupancy detectors of the main station. This one has 3 blocks (6 connections) hooked up to it, with another 2 connections reserved for the short stub track. The one in the background has another 4 blocks connected to it, which means that right now the 7 main tracks of the station are hooked up.

 

Image 056:

Turnout decoder controlling 9 turnouts of the main station as well as 1 turnout of the freight track. Of the 9 turnouts of the station, there's 2 pairs, so they only use 1 connection on the turnout decoder each.

 

Image 057:

The bit with the blue paper is the branch line. Initially we wanted this one to end in a visible station, but there just wasn't enough space without sacrificing too much of the possible scenery. So, the 3 tracks will be a hidden yard, and the branch line will just be a point to point. With computer control, it's possible to have 5-6 trains running only on the branch line. The branch line is the brown track in the track plan.

 

Image 058:

Different view of the branch line.

 

Image 059:

Just a shot of a locomotive at the station, nothing special ;)

 

Image 060:

Once again, updated the track plan. The left station will be mostly hand build. It'll be an older, steam era style station with simple concrete platforms that aren't covered. The station building itself will be placed on top of the tracks on the upper end of the track plan. The 2 tracks on the right (the stub tracks) are basically meant for steam trains. A steam train will drive up, decouple, go round to the turntable, turn around, and couple with the cars again. Eventually, we want to fully automate that too, although automating the turntable especially will be costly.

[Bernard]

Every time I look at your thread Marti, I can't believe what you've accomplished. It's just outstanding!!

One question as you mentioned in one photo, the blue paper. What is that for?

[Martijn Meerts]

Every time I look at your thread Marti, I can't believe what you've accomplished. It's just outstanding!!

One question as you mentioned in one photo, the blue paper. What is that for?

 

We ran out of regular white paper, and the blue was the only paper we had left at the time =)

[Martijn Meerts]

*** MAJOR MILESTONE *** 

 

The first loop is done, wired up (although part temporarily) and trains can run =)

 

The freight loop is finished up, it has a total of 8 blocks and can run 3 trains in total. Trains can also run either way over the (mostly) single track. It's of course computer controlled and it actually runs nice and smooth.

 

Only issue is that at 1 spot the clearance could've been a bit better, I might need to adjust it a bit.

[KenS]

Congrats. Having the first loop working must be very satisfying.

[Martijn Meerts]

Work continues ..

 

I still haven't found a job (not that I'm trying all THAT hard ;)) so there's still plenty of time to work on the layout. I had thought the most difficult bit was done track wise, considering the double wye underneath the main station was done, but I found out that many of the curved turnouts in track planning software just aren't correct compared to the real ones. It makes sense in a way, considering the curves of a curved turnout tend to be custom curves that have no specific radius. Anyway, because of this, we weren't able to just print the track plan 1:1 and lay tracks on, so the secondary station turned out to be quite the challenge.

 

Not many pictures this time, there's only so much you can take pictures of when you're building a station on a large slab of wood ;)

 

 

Image 061:

Overview of the area which will be the "small" station (at least, compared to the other station with about 10 tracks, this one has "only" 6 tracks ;)). The part with the paper track plan is the actual station, the larger bit with no track plan will be the servicing terminal / turntable / roundhouses area. The slab of wood with the turntable in it is removable considering we need to build and install the spiral down to the shadow station before we can work on the servicing terminal.

 

Image 062:

Better view of the tracks of the small station. Tracks number 2 and 3 (counting from the left) were initially meant to be passing tracks with no platform in between. However, we decided the station building will be on top of the tracks towards the end, with stairs going down from the station to the platforms. I don't feel much like making my own stairs, so we'll be buying 2 pedestrian rail bridges, which means we'd have 4 flights of stairs, which in turn means we might as well add a platform in between tracks 2 and 3. Since the station is supposed to be an old steam era station (which now also services modern trains), the platforms will be fairly low and simple. There won't be any roofs over them either.

 

Tracks 5 and 6 (the right most tracks) are stub tracks meant for steam trains. The idea is that the can uncouple, and drive into the servicing terminal. The tracks are fairly short, so it'll only be for shorter "special event" steam trains. The idea is to have the servicing terminal act like a museum with several still functional bits and pieces. There'll be a few tracks where we can park old trains that are broken or some such.

[scott]

There'll be a few tracks where we can park old trains that are broken or some such.

 

I have a few of those if you need some.... 

[Martijn Meerts]

Not all that much has visibly changed again, so just a small update.

 

The double line main loop has been completed track wise, and has been powered up temporarily. This allowed us to test run the trains and fix any issues we might encounter with the track. The only thing left now, is a small bit of track for the point to point branch line, but that's not really high priority for now.

 

I've also soldered all the wires for each of the blocks of the main loop. Even though we only have 2 occupancy detectors per block, we still need a LOT of wires, so it's quite a bit of work. There's about 18 blocks on the main loop, each block gets 3 blue and 1 red wire. On top of that we have sections in between blocks (turnouts etc.) which are also getting a blue and red wire each. We've has issues with the old layout with certain sections not getting power due to bad power routing turnouts, I'm making sure that won't happen this time ;)

 

Work has also started on adding all the components to the computer control program, which means I can soon start the hellish work of adding routes and setting up the correct functionality of signals and the like. It's an insane amount of work, because pretty much the entire layout has 2 way traffic, and there's a lot of crossovers that allow for a large number of possible routes.

 

Of course, during test runs, we also came across yet another problem with the curved turnouts...

 

Anyway, some images:

 

Image 063:

A bunch of trains huddled together to take in the sun ;) We've been test running a variety of trains, including a few Japanese ones.

 

Image 064:

This shows the issue with the curved turnouts. Interestingly enough, this problem only occurs with the large radius curved turnouts, the small radius ones work just fine. As you can see in the picture, the track spacing increases to 10mm at some point. At that point, there's also a small gap in the track to allow the point rails to lay flat against the stock rails, which makes the track spacing there another 0.2 mm or so wider. All the European trains seem to go through without problems, but the Japanese ones we tried actually fall off the rail. The reason for this is that, while both the Japanese and European trains are 9mm, the wheels of the European models are wider. There were some European models (mainly the ICE3) that were VERY close to having the some problem as the Japanese models.

 

Image 065:

A rather quick and dirty fix for the above mentioned problem. I used some Tamiya putty to give the rail a bit more thickness, and filled the gap the point rail usually falls in. I've added a small notch right at the end of the point rails, and filed down the sharp points of the point rails slightly. This fixed the problem quite well (to my rather big surprise to be honest ;)) I just need to paint the putty in the same rust color as the rest of the track, and it shouldn't be all that noticeable.

 

Image 066:

Another view of one of the large radius curved turnouts. As you can see, the point rails actually don't make a nice curve, but widen quite a bit.

 

 

While the turnouts work fine for the models they were meant for (Minitrix, Fleischmann, Roco etc.) I still feel these turnouts are just plain bad. There's no guarantee that future models of European brands won't get smaller wheels than current models. If they do get smaller wheels, everyone with these curved turnouts will get derailing problems sooner or later.

 

Obviously the Minitrix tracks and turnouts are sturdy, we have stuff that's probably around 30 years old, and it still works. But problems like these with turnouts not being the correct gauge is a rather big reason not to use Minitrix track again for any future layouts.

[David]

I thought this was a non-Japanese layout! That looks like an EF64 in your little yard, pulling a...holy moley, you've got a SHIKI 810? That's an expensive (but very cool) model! 

[Martijn Meerts]

The EF65-1000 is a guest appearance ;) That's the only train on the layout that's mine actually, the DD16 and Kiro 59 belong to my father (I gave them to him because for some reason I ordered 2 of each instead of just 1 ...) I would run more Japanese trains, but the small radius curves we've used in certain spots don't agree with most Japanese trains :/

 

And yes, I have both the Shiki 800 and 810. Always had a soft spot for heavy transport cars with lots of wheels =)

[to2leo]

I really like your family layout.  It shows a lot of team work and patience to create a masterpiece like this!  Did you guys set a time where everything will be completed?  I also cannot wait to see a video of a train running around the layout.

[Martijn Meerts]

There's no deadline, although we're working on it quite a lot these days to make sure things get done. The general plan for the near future is probably something like:

 

1. Wire all occupancy detectors and turnouts of the double main line

2. Set up the double main line in the computer program

3. Do lots of testing

4. (While step 3 is running really) Finish up the point to point branch line

5. Wire occupancy detectors and turnouts for the branch line

6. Set up the branch line in the computer program

7. Slowly work on the spiral going down to the hidden yard

8. Slowly work on the hidden yard

9. Test spiral and hidden yard

10. Start working on the servicing terminal

11. Scenery

 

We can't start the servicing terminal yet, because we need good access to the spiral that will be beneath the terminal. Also, we need to buy quite a lot of track (including turnouts) and more occupancy detectors and turnout decoders for the hidden yard, so it might take a while before we can really start on that. Of course, there's plenty other things to do. I still need to build and light several structures, and there's a lot of signals still left to be built as well.

 

Once the main line is wired up and hooked up to the computer, I'll shoot some video's of both the stations and the program doing its thing.

[scott]

What's that 3-car D(?)MU with the big windows near the cabs?

[Martijn Meerts]

 

What's that 3-car D(?)MU with the big windows near the cabs?

 

Kiro59 "Resort Saloon Fiesta", better known as the Fish Lips Train.. It's a model by MicroAce.

[scott]

Oh, OK--I see the lips now. Didn't spot those at first.

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, the steps I outlined earlier are already invalid ;)

 

What we like to do, is have various loops of copper wire underneath the table, slightly following the general track plan. For this layout, we'll have 8 of those loops in total. 2 for the command station, 2 for the booster, 2 for the accessory power supply and 2 for the lighting power supply.

 

While installing the first 2 of those loops, we came across a slight problem. The copper wire loops will need to go through the spiral. This means 2 things. First, we won't be able to build the entire spiral and then put it in its place and second, we somehow need to make sure no trains will get caught on the copper wire.

 

We weren't planning on building the spiral until much later, but we were pretty much forced to build it before continuing with the copper wires. So, with a general idea of how to build it and wood and track bought, we started working on the thing.

 

 

Image 067:

The lower ring of in total 3.5 rings of the spiral. As you can see, it's not a traditional round spiral. The reason for this is that we wanted to add some pieces of straight track to get more length per ring (and thus not that steep of a grade) and we've managed to not waste as much wood as with a traditional round spiral. Also, it's stronger because the wood is layered. The idea of not cutting rounds sections of wood is from http://www.stayathome.ch/gleiswendel.htm (unfortunately it's only in German, the pictures are still useful though ;))

 

Image 068:

Another view of the bottom ring.

 

Image 069:

All rings lined up, ready for installation.

 

 

 

A couple of things that became immediately clear, is that you need to be really precise. We used a handsaw for cutting most of the angles, but things just didn't line up like they should. It's definitely best to use some good quality electrical mitre saw of some sorts. Also, getting good quality wood is important, the stuff we used splintered a lot when sawing, which was no good. Another thing to keep in mind, in our case, we bought a sheet of 2.44 x 1.22 meter wood, which we had cut into strips at the store. The problem here, is that those strips weren't all the same size, which resulted in a bad fit.

 

I'm sure I'll find other problem issues when the rest of the spiral gets built ;)

[Martijn Meerts]

Work on the spiral continued in the recent days, and after some sweat (because of a couple of warm days), no tears, and some blood from scratches and splinters, the spiral is done, installed and tested.

 

Plenty problems arose again while finishing up the spiral, here's a list of a few of them:

 

1. Since the track won't be visible, it won't get ballasted, which means we used nails to fasten the track. Problem with that is that the Minitrix nails are of terrible quality and the wood was pretty tough. Combine the two, and we ended up with lots of bent nails.

 

2. Since we were building the spiral per loop, it was near impossible to correctly line up the track where 2 loops would meet.

 

3. Also since we were building the spiral per loop, the holes for the metal bars with screw thread (I'm sure there's a name for the stuff, but I haven't a clue what it could be ;)) didn't line up. This meant that putting the thing together and adjusting the height of each loop requires a bit of force.

 

4. We used flex track for half the spiral (2 loops), but the outer curve was too long for a single piece of flex track. Connecting 2 flex tracks together in a curve isn't a lot of fun ;)

 

5. Using either flex track or sectional track without roadbed is something I won't do again. It'd have been MUCH easier to use FineTrack or Unitrack for example. Using those track systems means you can first build the entire spiral, then put down the track, and just glue the track in place with a drop of hot glue here and there. The Minitrix sectional track isn't sturdy enough. Another option is to skip the wooden structure altogether, and actually use elevated track segments.

 

Anyways, some images:

 

Image 070:

The spiral with only the top loop missing.

 

Image 071:

Same stage of the spiral, but a side view. The grade looks very steep, but it's actually only about 3 to 3.5% with the option of cutting it down to 2.5% if needed.

 

Image 072:

The finished spiral built into the layout. We glued down the upper loop to the frame, the rest of the spiral just hangs on this upper loop. It's actually surprisingly sturdy.

 

Image 073:

Side view of the spiral. It goes down about 20 centimeters in total, so that gives us plenty space to reach all the tracks on the hidden yard that the spiral will be going to.

 

 

We've temporarily made a return loop at the end of the spiral so trains can go up and down on test runs. So far all trains run nicely. We have a bunch of trains that are known to not have an awful lot of traction though, so those might have issues, but we can always program it so those don't go to the spiral, or they'll just turn into shorter trains. The biggest problem will be the locomotives that either have no traction tires at all (for which I have some Bullfrog Snot, which might help) and those that have had their frame milled to make room for a decoder. Time will tell ;)

 

 

Next up will be to wire up all the turnouts and the remaining blocks of the main line, and try to fix the remaining problems of the large radius turnouts. The problems we've had with those just aren't funny anymore. We'll probably end up having to use servo's to reliably throw them.

[Bernard]

Marti - Had to take another look at you track plan to see the helix, I didn't realize the extent of how complicated it was. Does the helix led to a hidden staging area?

I had problems also with track nails and what I did was to use a small drill bit to pre-drill holes and when I needed it I add a drop of glue to the shaft.

I can sympathize with you about joining sections of flex track on curves, there were many times I had to re-solder a rail join because it didn't lay flush. Excellent work on the helix!

[Martijn Meerts]

Marti - Had to take another look at you track plan to see the helix, I didn't realize the extent of how complicated it was. Does the helix led to a hidden staging area?

I had problems also with track nails and what I did was to use a small drill bit to pre-drill holes and when I needed it I add a drop of glue to the shaft.

I can sympathize with you about joining sections of flex track on curves, there were many times I had to re-solder a rail join because it didn't lay flush. Excellent work on the helix!

 

The helix leads to a hidden staging yard yes. It'll probably be about 10 tracks of just a little over 1 meter each. The longest train we have on the layout is a BR103 locomotive with 5 express cars. I would've liked to see some longer trains, but there's just not enough space for it. And besides, 5 cars doesn't look entirely out of place, even on an express or ICE ;)

[KenS]

3. Also since we were building the spiral per loop, the holes for the metal bars with screw thread (I'm sure there's a name for the stuff, but I haven't a clue what it could be ;)) didn't line up.

 

They call it "quarter-inch threaded rod" at the store where I buy mine.  I imagine yours is metric. 

 

5. Using either flex track or sectional track without roadbed is something I won't do again. It'd have been MUCH easier to use FineTrack or Unitrack for example. Using those track systems means you can first build the entire spiral, then put down the track, and just glue the track in place with a drop of hot glue here and there. The Minitrix sectional track isn't sturdy enough. Another option is to skip the wooden structure altogether, and actually use elevated track segments.

 

Interesting. I'd been thinking of using Unitrack when I get around to building my helix, but the one concern I'd have there is dust getting into the track joiners over the long term.  Taking the track apart to fix that would be very hard inside a helix deep inside a layout.

 

I have seen a description of a helix built with viaduct Unitrack, but I'm not thrilled with the idea of using superelevated viaduct, and you can't get the old kind anymore.  What kind of elevated track segments did you have in mind?