A little mystery: Sliding doors on open waggons

[MichiK]

I've been deep into Meiji era railway the last month, and I've encountered something mysterious (at least for me):

Attached, you see two photos of open waggons of the JGR. To84 apparently is the type that is depicted in diagram 219 of the freight waggon book, Vol.2 of 1911 (I've found no diagram that fits To102, though).

 

It is clear to see that both waggons have sliding doors that run on rails just below floor level (similar to covered vans).

 

Now, what's puzzling me: There has to be some kind of guidance at the top of the doors, otherwise the pressure of the load would bend the doors inevitably outside. I just can't see anything suitable, neither in the photos nor in the diagram(s) ?!

 

IMO, these doors can't be a Japanese peculiarity, because a lot of open waggons from 1873, built by Metropolitan, Birmingham (diag. 203 in the aforementioned freight waggon book), already have them. So I suspect this rather to be a British thing, but i'm not aware of any other similar waggons elsewhere in the world.

 

Can anyone of you shed a little light on the mysterious construction?

 

https://www.popo8.com/host/data/202004/17/5/p1587161275_91189.jpg_b.jpg

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Page 3 of this pdf

https://www.tetsushako.or.jp/kasha/pdf/history01.pdf

 

Sources of the photographs:

To102 - history01.pdf on https://www.tetsushako.or.jp/kasha/

To84 (the picture is also reproduced in Dan Free, "Early Japanese Railways 1853-1914" )

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew Nummelin]

I’ve posted a query on the email group of the HMRS ( https://hmrs.org.uk/ ) in the hope that someone can help.

 

l had a quick flick through Dan Free’s book but I didn’t spot the photo. On which page is it?

 

[MichiK]

Thank you, Andrew!

Hmmm... I might have a look in the HMRS photo archive - I only fear that there would be several gazillions of pictures to look through?!

 

The picture is in chapter 1, page 35 of the paperback edition...

...or in 'An American Engineer in China', of course!

[Andrew Nummelin]

The replies that came back from the HMRS are quoted below.

Found the photo you referred to: looking at this, and the one in  https://www.tetsushako.or.jp/kasha/pdf/history01.pdf, I don't think either are clear enough to see whether there were, or were not, catches to hold the top of the door.

To follow up on the reference to the LNWR wagon it may be worthwhile contacting the LNWR Society https://www.lnwrs.org.uk/ .

Quote

Noel Leaver 6796

Nov 11   #14417  

 

I've got a lot of books covering pre-group wagons and never seen any opens with sliding doors. I've just flicked through ones for LNWR/L&YR/GWR/Midland. There were a few with cupboard doors, and rather more with cupboard doors above a drop door. One very odd wagon was an L&YR hopper where three side doors folded down inside the wagon to form a floor so it could be used as a sleeper wagon.

 

One way I can imagine such a door working is if it had a clip in the form of an inverted U at the top of each end, which fitted over the top of the fixed side planks and slid along.

 

Noel

 

 

 

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Arnold Tortorella 2135

Nov 11   #14418  

 

‘British Goods Wagons’ by R.J.Essery, D.P.Rowland & W.O. Steel (David & Charles, 1969) : I have just skimmed my way thro’ this work and nothing is readily evident. However, the Bibliography on page 127 does contain several references to articles & works published circa 1850 – just after the ‘Railway Mania’ of the 1840’s – surveying railway carrying stock, i.e. wagons.  There are also later works published circa late 19th century/early 20th century, which may shed some light on the situation.
 

Regretfully I do not have a scanner, so cannot upload the info here, which may well be in breach of coyright law anyway.
 

Arnold Tortorella

 

 

 

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0766 Peter Tatlow

Nov 11   #14419  

 

The LNWR had open fish trucks with sliding doors, see Historic carriage drawings, Vol 3, Non-passenger coaching stock, page 101.

 

Regards Peter Tatlow

 

 

 

Quote

 

michael773790 0034

 

Nov 11   #14420  

 

It might be worth looking at the wagon builders archives - there are certainly some unusual wagons for export in the Gloucester Wagon Co. archive in Gloucestershire Record Office.

 

Mike Barnsley

 

 

 

Quote

Noel Leaver 6796

Nov 11   #14421  

 

> The LNWR had open fish trucks with sliding doors, see Historic carriage drawings, Vol 3, Non-passenger coaching stock, page 101.

 

Looking at the drawing, the door slides to the left. There is what looks like a metal channel in the form of an inverted U attached to the top of the sides to the left of the door and overlapping the left edge by a few inches when the door is closed, which holds the top of the door. There is a catch of some sort on the right of the door which may have helped hold that side when closed.

 

Noel  

 

[MichiK]

Many thanks for your efforts, Andrew!

 

With the given key words I've found a model of the L&NWR open fish truck, which I presume to be modelled faithfully to the drawing:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co439101/model-open-fish-truck-model-railway-wagon

You can clearly see the inverted U that Noel mentioned, and I'd consider this the most prctical solution (for there is no potential interference with the load).

 

However, I almost certainly rule it out for those two Japanese trucks, because the profile would have to cast a very distinctive shadow in both photgraphs.

 

That leaves the clip over the side planks (which would be in permanent danger of being blocked by the cargo) or some even weirder,  imaginative solution.

The mystery stays... mysterious!