Tomix 5512 DU202 Cab Controller

[bill937ca]

They're seem to be some people who are very interested in the Tomix DU202 DC cab controller.  I've had mine since spring 2007.  I also have a Tomix  N-1000-CL controller (which currently is idle) and a Tomytec 6V controller which I use on a small tram layout.

 

 

 

It is set up like conventional traction controls with the power controller for the left hand and the brake handle for the right hand.  The brake handle is removable, just as real brake handles are.  The brake handle is the motorman's key to the office.

 

There are on/off forward/reverse controls for two separate tracks to the right of the on/off switch and the green light.  The green light located between the main power switch and the track power switches is very important.  Should this breaker be activated you will loose all power. Everything stops. The only way to reset the controller is to turn the main power switch off and on again.

 

There are basically two ways to run trains with the DU202.  You can use the controller and the brake handle or you can use the small button just to the right of the brake handle.  For trains with lighting I find I have to crank the controller all the way up to the third running notch (pointing straight down).  Otherwise I can often run on the first running notch.  This is actually the second notch as the first notch is power off.

 

I find that N scale trains are so small it is very hard to brake at realistic pace using an hugely over-scale controller. It may work better with 10 to 16 car trains in 9 foot stations than with my 4 car trains and streetcars.  You could just come into the station and brake very hard at the last minute, but "stonewalls" as hard abrupt braking is called, is grounds for disciplinary action on many railroads.

 

The other way to run trains with the DU202 is with the little black dial closest to the and setting the power notch to the first power position or more power as may be required and just control the momentum with the dial.  This allows more precise positioning of the trains, but sometimes the brake handle at the fifth braking point is still needed.

 

The four lights to the right of two dials show if you are drawing power (green), braking (red), coasting or idle (power off, brake on).

 

All instructions were in Japanese, so my experiences are by trial and error.

 

I get the impression the Tomix 5512 and related models might now be discontinued with the new Tomytec controller coming out.

 

Here are the instructions from Japan Model Railways in Germany, who no longer seems to stock this item.

 

http://www.japanmodelrailways.com/anleitungen/5513english.html

 

I will answer questions as much as possible, but for the next few weeks my free time is very limited.  

[David]

I think I'm one of the most interested about this type of controller, enough to seriously consider the $300 it would cost to buy from Hobby Search and ship overseas, though I'm waiting on the upcoming TomyTec "lite" version to see how that works.

 

From reading some of the translated (and seemingly abbreviated) manuals I am a bit confused about how the throttle (left handle) works. Does each notch represent a specific speed, or a rate of acceleration - so will the train eventually reach its top speed regardless of setting (acceleration), or will it only accelerate until it reaches that notches speed and go no faster until a higher notch is selected (making it the same as a DCC or MRC programmable momentum throttle). Do you know how this compares to the prototype?

 

As far as adjustment do you know:

* I assume the Min/Max dial controls the top speed of the train, is there a dial to configure the rate of acceleration?

* Can the CL function be turned off?

[bill937ca]

I think I'm one of the most interested about this type of controller, enough to seriously consider the $300 it would cost to buy from Hobby Search and ship overseas, though I'm waiting on the upcoming TomyTec "lite" version to see how that works.

 

From reading some of the translated (and seemingly abbreviated) manuals I am a bit confused about how the throttle (left handle) works. Does each notch represent a specific speed, or a rate of acceleration - so will the train eventually reach its top speed regardless of setting (acceleration), or will it only accelerate until it reaches that notches speed and go no faster until a higher notch is selected (making it the same as a DCC or MRC programmable momentum throttle). Do you know how this compares to the prototype?

 

As far as adjustment do you know:

* I assume the Min/Max dial controls the top speed of the train, is there a dial to configure the rate of acceleration?

* Can the CL function be turned off?

 

I thought this would appeal you, David.

 

The each notch on the throttle gives you a particular voltage.  How the train responds depends on the voltage demands of the train.  My Kato Urbanliner with interior lighting really does not get going until the power is almost completely on.  A train will reach its top speed as you move up through the notches.  Once set at a notch, trains generally run at consistent speeds.

 

On the prototype with series-parallel control, there were seven notches (I think) but only two running notches--series or parallel.  Running on other notches for more a moment would cause damage to the controller.  This type of control is still widely in use in Japan, although not on the latest trains or Shinkansens.

 

You can see the controller in this video once the cameraman gets up the front of the car.

 

 

The operator is running the car in series(edited Dec 01), the normal running speed. But while crossing the level crossing after the bridge he puts the controller into series for a minute just to get a little more power. Usually you would run power on, power off and try to coast to save power, at least with a streetcar.  

 

 

Trains seem to run at full parallel most of the time.  Topography is probably also a big factor in running trains in Japan.

 

The rate of acceleration on the Tomix 5512 can be configured with a second dial (just to left of the first dial) that controls Minimum/Maximum acceleration.

 

I'm not aware of any other switches that would allow you to turn off the CL function.

[CaptOblivious]

David,

 

My LHS has this very throttle for sale, don't ask me how or why. I don't know the price, but I'd be happy to look it up next I'm in (which is not infrequently). There's a chance that the price is reasonable, and shipping within the US would make it cheaper than buying it from HS.

[David]

I've got to figure out if I should go with a DC cab simulation controller, or spend the money to go DCC (all the JR East commuter trains I've bought or am planning to buy are Kato DCC drop in, leaving my JR Kyusyu express trains as continous running DC).

[clem24]

Wow thanks for the info! I've always wondered about this controller. I have the 1000CL at the moment and using it in favour of my MRC controller with built in momentum. I find on some trains, I have to really crank the throttle on the 1000CL to get them going and even when maxed, they are not going top speed. I like the MRC controller, but the momentum switch setting is soooo brutally slow. I think it's meant more for American MU 100+ car freight operations (and probably HO scale). So I usually don't end up using it. Anyway this controller seems like a really good compromise. But a good point has been brought up: invest in this, or go DCC...

[David]

Wow thanks for the info! I've always wondered about this controller. I have the 1000CL at the moment and using it in favour of my MRC controller with built in momentum. I find on some trains, I have to really crank the throttle on the 1000CL to get them going and even when maxed, they are not going top speed. I like the MRC controller, but the momentum switch setting is soooo brutally slow. I think it's meant more for American MU 100+ car freight operations (and probably HO scale). So I usually don't end up using it. Anyway this controller seems like a really good compromise. But a good point has been brought up: invest in this, or go DCC...

 

That's a big issue I have with going MRC - all their controllers seem to be targeted at HO and O, with little regard for how the voltage/amp scales affect N scale trains.

 

With regard to DCC, the biggest problem seems to be the brake handle, which doesn't seem to exist on any DCC throttle (it's always a single setting brake button). I'd really need to read up on the DCC spec to figure out if a DCC cab controller could be kitbashed (preferably out of one of the sub $100 plug in throttles).

[ToniBabelony]

I've ordered the new TOMYTEC 101-Series cab control unit (with sound) for quite a low price: http://www.tomytec.co.jp/diocolle/items/0911/12_seigyo01.html I hope it preforms as well as it looks

[David]

I've ordered the new TOMYTEC 101-Series cab control unit (with sound) for quite a low price: http://www.tomytec.co.jp/diocolle/items/0911/12_seigyo01.html I hope it preforms as well as it looks

 

I'm definitely interested in how this one works out. The only thing that might pose a problem is I think it's 0.5A instead of 1A/1.5A like the full throttles. If that's the case it would only be good for controlling one train (not a problem, since that's what it's for), and you probably couldn't drive a train with too many of the older bulb lighting kits (those things eat amps for breakfast).

[ToniBabelony]

I'm definitely interested in how this one works out. The only thing that might pose a problem is I think it's 0.5A instead of 1A/1.5A like the full throttles. If that's the case it would only be good for controlling one train (not a problem, since that's what it's for), and you probably couldn't drive a train with too many of the older bulb lighting kits (those things eat amps for breakfast).

 

Well, It's made for the Tetsudou Collection trains which have no lights at all, so that shouldn't be a big deal for TOMYTEC I think... Also, it's more aimed at a max. trainlength of about 4-cars (the JNR 70/101-Series being the longest), so that shouldn't be posing a problem as well. The maximum output is 9V, which is in my opinion a good thing considering the discussion on throttle control earlier on.

 

I'm very exited and getting more and more impatient by the day, waiting for its release! :happy2:

[CaptOblivious]

My basic Tomix throttle is a 0.5A model, and it handles even my bulb-alicious Super Hitachi just fine (although it does get a little warm). I wouldn't think the relatively low current rating of the new Tomytec throttle would be too much of a problem, esp at a max of 9V.

[clem24]

Anyone have the Kato one? I assume it operates the same, without CL, and a much higher price tag..?

[David]

Anyone have the Kato one? I assume it operates the same, without CL, and a much higher price tag..?

 

Is there any way to get the Kato one, besides used auctions? I think Kato abandoned it's whole modular controller idea (and the various related pieces like the automation unit and cab controller) a long time ago, and has now shifted gears to the standard Kato controller for DC and the Kato DCC controller  (rebranded/maybe co-developed Digitrax Zephyr) for advanced control.

[nickhp]

Question.  I read there are 2 outputs and 2 switches for fwd/stop/rev.  If BOTH switches are set to "fwd" or "rev", do you control both trains at the same time to the same throttle/brake settings?  In other words, this is not a real dual controller since you cannot control the 2 outputs independently, right?

 

Thanks!

[bill937ca]

Question.  I read there are 2 outputs and 2 switches for fwd/stop/rev.  If BOTH switches are set to "fwd" or "rev", do you control both trains at the same time to the same throttle/brake settings?  In other words, this is not a real dual controller since you cannot control the 2 outputs independently, right?

 

That`s right. But two trains rarely run at exactly the same speed.

[rpierce000]

Some folks love these high end controllers, but many seem to feel that DCC is a better "feel" once they get them both in house. I would only get one of the monsters if you love the idea of having a) the sounds and b) the "correct" cab.

 

I tried to sell one of these and it came back three times before it found a home. I will not be carrying them again.

[clem24]

Some folks love these high end controllers, but many seem to feel that DCC is a better "feel" once they get them both in house. I would only get one of the monsters if you love the idea of having a) the sounds and b) the "correct" cab.

 

I am curious about DCC. So do you basically program in momentum into a DCC controller? Or how does that work? Would be lovely if they came out with a DCC controller that looks like one of those Kato/Tomix cab controllers. I dunno.. DCC controllers have always perplexed me, with their myriad buttons and what is seemingly a weird control "dial" which usually does not resemble a throttle dial. And the funny thing is, I am a total techie hahaha. Maybe it's just my complete ignorance of DCC as a whole.

 

I think the next step in my progression of the hobby is to stop collecting trains/rolling stock, and concentrate of converting my fleet to DCC (could be a *HUGE* task LOL). But just buying rolling stock is so much fun hahahaha.

[nickhp]

Bob - I didn't think this unit has sounds?  Watching a couple of videos on YouTube, the only sound I heard was the high pitch whine which I assume is caused by the CL provision?

 

Bill - thanks, that's what I assumed.  Since this would be for B-Train shorties, I would probably be better off with the 9v unit with sound they now have.

 

Cheers!

 

Nick

[clem24]

Bob - I didn't think this unit has sounds?  Watching a couple of videos on YouTube, the only sound I heard was the high pitch whine which I assume is caused by the CL provision?

 

You need the N-S2-CL to get sound.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10026429

 

[CaptOblivious]

Some folks love these high end controllers, but many seem to feel that DCC is a better "feel" once they get them both in house. I would only get one of the monsters if you love the idea of having a) the sounds and b) the "correct" cab.

 

That's a shame. I'm really interested in this unit, but the cost is a bit high…trying to decide how to spend my birthday money, however, and I am sorely tempted by one of these sitting at the local Yodobashi…A real shame that people mistake DCC's momentum for anything like realistic controls.

 

I am curious about DCC. So do you basically program in momentum into a DCC controller? Or how does that work? Would be lovely if they came out with a DCC controller that looks like one of those Kato/Tomix cab controllers. I dunno.. DCC controllers have always perplexed me, with their myriad buttons and what is seemingly a weird control "dial" which usually does not resemble a throttle dial. And the funny thing is, I am a total techie hahaha. Maybe it's just my complete ignorance of DCC as a whole.

 

The problem isn't you, it's the wealth of bad information and badly written instructions. Took me about 18 months to wrap my head around it all, and that was before I began exploring the technical details necessary for designing DCC electronics! But basically, the knob on most DCC throttles is little different than the knob on a standard DC controller: Turn it one way, train goes faster. Turn it the other, train goes slower. DCC does have a "momentum" feature, but it works exactly like the "momentum" on the fancier MRC DC throttles, i.e., nothing to get excited about.

 

Perhaps if you sweet talk me, later this year I'll send you a beta unit of the throttles I'm designing for Railstars—my aim is to eliminate all confusion about how digital control should work :D

[CaptOblivious]

Incidentally, the video that Bill posted at the origin of this thread is of a guy who gutted his unit and replaced with a DIY micro-controller, with fancy pulse power and so forth. A really neat project if you look at his blog! He's made some significant improvements over the original electronics, including pulse power (well, PWM, for the techies).

 

http://kodawaritrain.blogspot.com/

[brill27mcb]

Bob - I didn't think this unit has sounds?  Watching a couple of videos on YouTube, the only sound I heard was the high pitch whine which I assume is caused by the CL provision?

...

Cheers!

 

Nick

Incidentally, the video that Bill posted at the origin of this thread is of a guy who gutted his unit and replaced with a DIY micro-controller, with fancy pulse power and so forth. A really neat project if you look at his blog! He's made some significant improvements over the original electronics, including pulse power (well, PWM, for the techies).

 

http://kodawaritrain.blogspot.com/

 

Actually, the CL feature IS pulse width modulation. There should be no more reason to have a whine than there is with any PWM-based controller.

 

Rich K.

[rpierce000]

My apologies, it is a different one of these units that has sound. I was thinking of the much more expensive N-S2-CL. 

 

That is the one that kept bouncing, I have not had one of these go by.

 

Bob

[CaptOblivious]

I know own one of these DU202's. It's a ton of fun, although the brake action is somewhat simplified compared to what I observed on Randen: At the left stop, no brake is applied; moving it right notch-by-notch increases brake pressure. But in the Randen cars, the left stop would vent the brake cylinder; a middle position was neutral, and more right-hand positions would fill the brake cylinder from a master cylinder (judging by the two pressure gauges on the display panel), which would automatically be refilled by a compression pump once it hit a certain lower limit.

 

Question: Given this description, how prototypical is the brake action on the DU202? Do the brakes on JR EMUs work as the DU202 does? Or do they work more like the Randen trams?

[bill937ca]

It sounds like a typical tram brake. With tram brakes there are three positions: Release, Lap and Apply.  You apply and then release a bit so you don`t shudder to a stop. The term notches is usually used to refer to controller positions when applying power and moving to the series position and sometimes the parallel position.

 

Keifuku may look somewhat like a railroad with its high platform stations, but it is a tramway with sections of street running. Here`s an extended, somewhat vintage look at Keifuku`s Katabira no tsuji station where the Arashiyama and Kitano lines meet.

 

 

There is an explanation of how trolley or tram air brakes work here. Scroll down to Operating the Brakes.  The brakes on EMUs are generally similar, but I`m not sure if these brakes would be strong enough for stopping the weight of an EMU.

 

One of the aspects of Japanese trains that appeals to me is the separate hand power and brake controls reminiscent of trams that are found in many mainline trains even today like the Series 183, 189, 485, 489, 581.