Problems with DCC

[Mossberg]

I am moving a question from the Introduction thread to a more appropriate location.

 

I couldn't find a digital starter set to begin my adventures in Japanese model railroading with and I find it strange that digital systems for model train operation seams to be so uncommon i Japan. CaptOblivious gave the following explanation

 

Well, look at it this way: How many headaches has DCC given us, collectively? I can't count that high. Now, consider that most Japanese layouts are temporary Unitrack/FineTrack ovals on the floor. Imagine what you would need to do to set up anything more than the simplest DCC wiring scheme on a temporary basis. More headaches!

 

I have only been in this hobby for a year but so far I have had very little or no problems with DCC and even less wlth Selectrix :-). The only problems I have had has been putting decoders in non digital locos. But that can hardly be counted as DCC problems can it? So I am curious, what sort of problems have you had with DCC?

 

And for temporary ovals, doesn't a digital system make them even more simple to setup and operate? And to run several locos at once using a single pair of wires sounds like much more fun to me. At least a soon as you have a layout with turnouts. And if Kato's turnouts, with built in motors, also had a DCC decoder built in, then it would be possible to control both locos and turnouts from a single device and a single pair of wires.

 

/Magnus M

[Martijn Meerts]

I've had some problems with Selectix, decoders acting strangely, system not shutting down when there's a short circuit on the layout etc.

 

Haven't used DCC enough to find any real problems. Obviously there are a lot of locomotives where it's difficult to install a decoder, and quite often documentation of the various CV's and functions is lacking.

 

As for DCC in Japan, Kato/Tomix will have to completely redesign their turnouts in order to allow a decoder to be built in. They'll also need to be easy to replace, and to prevent too much wiring, they'll need to get their power from the track, which will affect a train's running characteristics.

 

I'm pretty sure one or more Japanese manufacturers can make an extremely good DCC system, but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.

[Mossberg]

they'll need to get their power from the track, which will affect a train's running characteristics.

 

Thats true, but I was thinking about small temporary layouts. On my small winter layout (basically a Fleischmann starter set) with only 3 turnouts and 2 locos I control both the turnouts and the locos with DCC from the Profi-Boss. And the turnout decoder takes both DCC instructions and power from the same wires as the track. On a such a small layout I can't notice any effects on the locos.

 

/Magnus M

[Martijn Meerts]

That's true, but I don't think Japanese temporary layouts tend to be that small.. But I have no idea really ;)

 

It would be great to see a DCC system come out of Japan, but I'm not getting my hopes up. In the meantime I'm sticking with my Lenz system (possibly an ESU ECoS 2 at some point), decoders can be a pain to install, but I really can't do the analog thing anymore =)

[Bernard]

This is an interesting topic and after screening Bill's thread/Video of the Cafe with a layout that you can rent time on, it seems that it would be more fun and profitable to have it run DCC. Why? Because you could run more trains on that layout instead of a customer have one dedicated track to themselves.

The fun part would be having a Dispatcher at the helm of the layout directing all the "engineers", it would be highly interactive.

One problem I can see is having duplicate address codes but that could be solved.

 

On the Con side, some of the older trains, (especially from a manufacture that name starts with a "T....") it is hard to install a decoder. 

[westfalen]

I'll have to politely disagree with CaptOblivious here, DCC has removed all my wiring and operating headaches.

 

I've had no problems with DCC. Some older locos, and not just Japanese, can be a pain to fit with decoders but I find I don't run them that much  as I get newer, better models anyway, and I can always run them on analog if I get nostalgic for the 'good' old days. The thing that was holding me back from converting my Japanese fleet was the need for decoders in each end car for the head/tail lights, maybe the large number of EMU/DMU trains has been a factor in holding back DCC in Japan, Kato are getting on top of this with all their newer releases and retooling of older ones accepting their slot-in decoders. http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/dcc/kato_friendly.shtml

 

I can't see any reason why even the biggest temporary layout can't be DCC if it's made plug'n'play like Unitrack, it wouldn't be any more difficult than analog where you are going to need multiple throttles if you are going to run multiple trains. Then, if analog, when you want to do anything more difficult than run each train on its own separate track you need control panels or switches, DCC does away with that, just plug in one command station. Ok, you may want to divide the layout into power districts but would that be as hard as plugging in multiple analog controllers? Stationary decoders can be installed inside Unitrack turnouts. http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/customshop/jouhou/istl/point_4.shtml http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/customshop/jouhou/istl/point_6.shtml Maybe if you have too many it will have an effect on train running, but then if you have that many powered turnouts on an analog layout you should have a separate power supply for them anyway.

 

For whatever reason, (and for whatever reason the others aren't), Kato do seem to be doing more to promote DCC in Japan than any other manufacturer, even to the point of a Japanese language labeled version of the Digitrax Zephyr, (is it a coincidence that the handles on the Zephyr are 100% identical to those on Kato's analog controller). They also have a lot of DCC information on their Japanese website, more in fact than any US manufacturer has, including Kato USA.

[Martijn Meerts]

DCC removing wiring is very situational. I've built a computer controlled layout, which requires the layout to be divided into blocks. Each block has 2 occupancy detectors for train detection and deceleration. Each occupancy detector needs 1 wire, there's a total of about 80 of them on the entire layout.

 

If the layout gets bigger, and you need a separate power supply for the turnouts, then every single turnout will be requiring additional wiring again.

 

If you have a fairly simple layout, with no block control, and next to no automated running, then yes, DCC will be a lot less wires than analog. However, anything beyond that will quickly turn into the same spaghetti that analog tends to be.

[CaptOblivious]

FWIW, I use DCC, and I only have temporary layouts. I have the Zephyr, and no problem wiring it to a single or double-track loop.

 

I have found many of my DCC installs to be incredible headaches, especially in Tomix locos, but also in older Kato stock. The Tomix DE10 in particular *shudder*. It's not fair to shrug these kinds of problems off: While those of us enmeshed in the DCC world take it for granted that there will be installation roadblocks, this attitude is far from universal. And in the exceptionally technologically advanced world of Japan, where things are expected to just work out of the box (because, in large part, they do), these sort of roadblocks are unacceptable. This is why, I think, Kato has gone to such tremendous lengths to make DCC installation dead simple.

 

Now, consider my simple loop of track. What have I gained by connected my Zephyr to it, instead of a similarly priced Tomix throttle? The ability to run multiple trains. Am I running multiple trains on one loop? No. If I am, one is always sitting in a siding. But the selective nature of japanese turnouts makes DCC redundant for this situation.

 

Suppose I want to add block detection and some kind of primitive signalling. Now the wiring becomes far more complex, and it is not clear that this sort of wiring can be done so flexibly with sectional track. But Tomix has products that makes it dead simple on DC, using their TCS (no relation to the American DCC company) system. They even have throttles to achieve rather advanced automation, none requiring any sort of terribly complex wiring, or overly expensive block detection system. (I dare you to go read Digitrax's user manuals for their block detectors and come back here and claim they make any sense at all. I've got a degree in computer engineering, and I can't make heads nor tails of them.)

 

Can these fancy systems do everything DCC can? No. But they can do 80% of what DCC offers more simply and way more cheaply for small temporary layouts. And that is why I think DCC hasn't made a splash in Japan.

[Mossberg]

I run my main layout using Selectrix and TrainController 7 and I agree, as soon as you add block detection to your digital layout the wiring gets more complicated. But does it get more complicating than doing the same thing on an analog layout?

 

And I would guess that most layouts goes somewhere between that single track oval and  the big computer controlled permanent layout. And for all does layouts I think a digital system would make it more simple, and fun, to set up and operate. But as always I guess it is a matter of taste :-).

 

 

 

/Magnus M

[Mossberg]

But I have to admit that the situation is not much "better" in Europe. If you look at the latest Fleischmann N scale catalogue very few of the locos are digital, or even has a NEM connector. And if you want a digital solution you have to pay for it.

 

As a newbie to the hobby today my guess was that almost all locos were digital. But somehow it feels like model railroading is 10-15 years behind. At least compared to other "hobbies", like music or photography, where you today have to search to find non digital equipment. And if you find it you probably have to pay extra for it. Because when it comes to the price it is much about the demand.

 

I don't know much about Japanese model railroading traditions but here in Sweden the majority of those that play with trains are in the age 50-60. And that seams to be rather consistent over the years, which should mean that most new comers to the hobby are in the age 40-50 (like me). And people at my age tend to be rather conservative. Which could help to explain the low demand for new technique, at least here in Sweden :-).

 

 

/Magnus M

[David]

As a newbie to the hobby today my guess was that almost all locos were digital. But somehow it feels like model railroading is 10-15 years behind.

 

This gets me too. When I look at options for combing DCC with computer control (what I eventually want to do), what I see are serial port connectors and primitive software running on DOS or Mac OS Classic. 10 or 20 years ago computer control would have been something to justify a special setup, but today even your retired folk have a laptop for email and internet - and that laptop doesn't have ancient serial ports, it has USB.

 

I'm wondering how much could be saved by making a DCC command module that consisted of nothing but a micro-controller for realtime packet response with a USB plug to let a computer handle the rest. It could simplify the throttles a lot too - a USB throttle would be cheap to make, and you could even go as far as "soft" throttles in Java for various cell phones and other PDA like devices with built in wireless.

[grumbeast]

I think a lot of the uptake issues for dcc do involve all the legacy stock people have. I'm a pretty technical guy but the headache of fitting wired decoders is just a stress for what's meant to be a hobby (although umdrstand some of you *enjoy* that!!  :)

 

this is why I've decided to go back to dc for all but my north american stuff ( and even then I have a bunch of locks that will never be converted

 

so for me what is really comes down to is that I have too much investment to transition easily

 

g

[Bernard]

Magnus brings up a point of the new technology and the older modelers. When it comes to computers and programming some people get lost, some people just want to put their trains on the track and let them run.

There is also the point that a lot of the trains need to be modified to order to install a decoder and that sometimes involves soldering which scares away some modelers. (I just paid _ _ _ dollars for my new train set and now I have to take it apart to install/solder in a decoder? I might break it.)

For me personally, after doing one large layout DC and my most recent DCC, even with blocks, I find there is less wiring with DCC, plus you don't have to worry about controlling 2 trains on the same track as with DC.

There is a learning curve with DCC plus the added expense of sometimes installing multiple decoders in one train set, as opposed to putting a DC train on the train, with directional lights working already and "away you go."

[nik_n_dad]

We use "Switch Kats" from NCE to control our Kato turnouts.  All you need to do is hook up the leads from the turnout to the switch kat vs. the manual "lever" switch. We have a psuedo-temporary layout on a piece of 2" insulating foam while we're building "the big" layout. 

 

What's cool with the Switch Kats on the NCE DCC system is the simple way they have to setup routing or route control from the DCC controller- meaning we can go to or from any point on the layout or yard through any number of turnouts by selecting a single macro.  It was one of the things that got me excited about DCC, as well as running many trains at once.

 

Katos have been the easiest to convert- some use a "drop-in" decoder (like the DD51s) or the quirky, but functional "slide-in" decoders from Kato.  The Tomix and MicroAces have been a little more challenging, they are all wire-ins.  The biggest challenge in many of those is just figuring out how to open the little buggers up.

 

I held off on switching my son's trains to DCC for a long time.  We got started with DCC for his birthday in February- Now I (we) are wondering why we didn't do this sooner

 

By the way.. 67 our locos converted, about 20-25 to go!.......

[Bernard]

 

By the way.. 67 our locos converted, about 20-25 to go!.......

 

What a roster! Would you share photos of it in the Gallery?

[Mossberg]

We use "Switch Kats" from NCE to control our Kato turnouts. 

 

Sounds interesting. Do you have web link where I can find more information and/or buy them. Thave never heard of NCE before (so this is very you all can see that I am newbie :-)

 

/Magnus M

[nik_n_dad]

My son (Nik) and I have been thinking about taking pictures of the roster.  It will probably scare the heck out of mom when she sees them all out at once!  ;-)

 

But we may make that out Thanksgiving break project- to photograph the collection and get it up.  It's very eclectic- everything from steam to bullet trains, Japanese, American, German, Spanish, and most any roadname.  My son got interested in trains when he was 2 years old, we have no idea where that came from.  Now it's my hobby as well, and mom tolerates it.  So our collection for the most part, is based on trains that one or both of thinks "looks cool" or could be fun to have.

 

Regarding DCC, here's some links:

 

NCE DCC: http://www.ncedcc.com/

 

NCE SwitchKat: http://www.ncedcc.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=garden_flypage.tpl&product_id=60&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

 

We use alot of Digitrax and TCS decoders or the locos.  Both have excellent installation helps. 

[grumbeast]

The roster shots are a great idea, I think everyone loves a little show and tell.  Its something I've been meaning to do for a while too, maybe you've inspired me to do it! 

 

Actually if I can get a bit of the railway basically sceniced (just a little straightaway) then I can use it as a stage for the the photos

 

G.