E235-1000 series transportation

[RossDensha]

Here are a couple videos of two green cars for the new E235 1000 series for the Yokosuka line.

There seems to be an old Tokyu 7000 series in the second video behind the green cars? With its pantos up??

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by RossDensha

[EdF]

So looks like the solution for the stripe vs platform doors will be an additional set of stripes above the windows for the full car.  Maybe single color lines like Chuo could color the doors like Yomanote.

[RossDensha]

I hear everywhere about the Yamanote E235s 'the lines above the doors are visible above the platform doors.' 

But other newish JR East sets (209 etc) have the full line across the car above the doors , which I reckon is perfectly fine...

 

 

 

 

 

[EdF]

They do, but its not enough to be unique, but it usually just the one color on the high line.  So the traditional green and orange on steel/aluminium was green/orange/green, fully body.  On stainless that went green strip, windows, orange/green stripe.  Continuing that would make some lines difficult to distinguish.  I don't know any lines that would share platforms where that would come up.  Yamanote/Yokohama and Chuo/Nambu(actually these could be confusing at Tachikawa).

 

JR has seen fit to maintain this character for their lines and the e235-0 was the first look at it.  I'm am not surprise it is different than Yamanote's but it is a smaller evolution than I hoped.  Granted we haven't seen the face, and they could still add to it, the e257s redone for Odoriko originally were spotted with just the black window band, then later showed up with the blue bands, and there appears to be maybe a film between the strips at the front and rear of these cars, maybe more to come, maybe not.

 

On the Yamanote I thought the "vertical" of the door and door brow was the platform solution and the brow above the door was just because when the door was open it left something too see.  So more a vertical stripe that just went past the door top.

Edited April 24, 2020 by EdF
added bit about my though on Yamanote stripe.

[miyakoji]

When I saw this yesterday I overlooked that these are 235 series, not 217.  It's going to be weird seeing something other than 217s on the Yokosuka/Sobu rapid service.

 

I appreciate that decals on stainless steel are cheaper than fully painted steel bodies, but I do miss the greater coverage of a conventional paint job, especially with the better liveries like the Yokosuka blue/cream.

[maihama eki]

After seeing it in the first video, I searched, but could not find the DD200 in n-scale.  Does such a thing exist?

[miyakoji]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:44 AM, RossDensha said:

There seems to be an old Tokyu 7000 series in the second video behind the green cars? With its pantos up??

 

Good question.  All I could think of is providing electricity to the E235 cars, but they don't seem to be 'powered up' in any way.  I assume the loco can provided all the necessary air.

 

1 minute ago, maihama eki said:

After seeing it in the first video, I searched, but could not find the DD200 in n-scale.  Does such a thing exist?

 

Not sure, but other than the prototype, which is about 2 years old, the DD200 is new.  In fact this video got me to thinking about that, I mistook it for an HD300 at first.  I didn't realize there were any production DD200s, in fact as of December 2019 there are 8.

[trainsforever8]

I still wonder why they don't have double sliding doors like the green cars that are to be added on the Chuo Line?

[railsquid]

30 minutes ago, trainsforever8 said:

I still wonder why they don't have double sliding doors like the green cars that are to be added on the Chuo Line?

 

Presumably as single doors have proven adequate on the lines they've been used on for decades already.

 

The Chuo Line is a special case as it terminates at Tokyo Station where a large proportion of passengers will alight/board, and as it's a simple two-track platform, minimising dwell times is essential.

[EdF]

Has chuo gotten green cars, I can find pics of them.  I know its planned and needed platforms lengthened.

Edited April 30, 2020 by EdF

[RossDensha]

Was that a typo, did you mean can't?

This thread has some links to artist's impressions of what the chuo green cars will look like:

 

[bill937ca]

5 hours ago, EdF said:

Has chuo gotten green cars, I can find pics of them.  I know its planned and needed platforms lengthened.

Delayed until 2022 I believe.

[EdF]

38 minutes ago, RossDensha said:

Was that a typo, did you mean can't?

 

 Yes typo, oops.  Thanks for the link.  So they are also adding toilets to the ordinary cars maybe more  toilets?  

[RossDensha]

Chuo:

 

Yep, some E233-0 sets already have toilets in ordinary cars, and they're adding them to more sets.

Quote

IIRC some of the commuter express (通勤快速) run for 30+ minutes without stopping.

-railsquid

You'd want a toilet for journeys like that.

Wikipedia, probably out of date, (some may have been upgraded) says that there are 4x 10 car sets that are fitted with toilets and 3* 6+4 car sets.

 

Yokosuka/Sobu:

I think it's safe to assume regular cars will have toilets, the E217s have them in regular cars as far as I can see, but machine translation can omit things or I just don't look properly

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本E217系電車#横須賀線・総武快速線_2

6 hours ago, bill937ca said:

Delayed until 2022 I believe.

Now until 2023.

Edited May 1, 2020 by RossDensha

[railsquid]

5 hours ago, RossDensha said:

Yokosuka/Sobu:

I think it's safe to assume regular cars will have toilets, the E217s have them in regular cars as far as I can see.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本E217系電車#横須賀線・総武快速線_2

 

 

All the "long distance" E217/E231/E233/E531 sets have toilets in regular cars. The Chuo Line has been a historical exception as it's primarily an urban line, but does branch out at the western ends with occasional long trips out to Otsuki and even as far as Kawaguchiko, as well as those long runs on peak time commuter services.

[Socimi]

On 4/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, RossDensha said:

There seems to be an old Tokyu 7000 series in the second video behind the green cars? With its pantos up??

The green cars are being manufactured in Yokohama, but the rest of the train is being made in Niitsu, so apparently they're moving the green cars there to assemble the final trains, and the old Tokyu 7000 are apparently being used as "shield" cars, both to protect the cars themselves and to act as a "coupler adapter": the E235s (and many other EMUs) are equipped with shibata-type couplers, while locos (and the Tokyu 7000s) use knuckle couplers. My guess is that those 7000s were retrofitted with a shibata coupler at one end.

[trainsforever8]

Considering the E231 and E233 series that are used on longer distance lines (such as the Tokaido line) have a different propulsion sound, do you guys think the E235 series used on the Yokosuka line will also have a different propulsion sound than the one on the Yamanote line? 

[RossDensha]

It's hard to tell?

There's no way to know.

 

If you want to know what I think...

The E235 is JR East's first SiC VVVF revenue commuter train. 

The newish E261 is also SiC VVVF powered.

I'd say the E235-1000 (and maybe the E131) will sound similar to one of these. These two already sound similar anyway.

 

The longer distance E233-3000 (Tokaido Takasaki Utsunomiya) have different motors to the other E233s so that they can operate in multiple with E231-1000 sets. Apparently they're also lighter and smaller.

 

We'll find out when the full prototype set is built and is test running. 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by RossDensha

[Socimi]

5 hours ago, trainsforever8 said:

Considering the E231 and E233 series that are used on longer distance lines (such as the Tokaido line) have a different propulsion sound, do you guys think the E235 series used on the Yokosuka line will also have a different propulsion sound than the one on the Yamanote line? 

 

I'm sure the traction control will be the same SiC IGBT-VVVF used on the E235-0s.

The only possible difference might be that the E235-1000s will have a different gear ratio, more oriented towards speed than accelleration.

 

 

4 hours ago, RossDensha said:

The longer distance E233-3000 (Tokaido Takasaki Utsunomiya) have different motors to the other E233s so that they can operate in multiple with E231-1000 sets. Apparently they're also lighter and smaller.

We'll find out when the full prototype set is built and is test running. 

 

The E233-3000 Series's bodyshell is exactly identicall to the one used by all the other "standard" E233s (of course, except the E233-2000s wich use narrow bodies for subway trough-services).

 

 I also doubt that the different inverters (standard E233 have Mitsubishi Electric ones, E233-3000s have Hitachi ones) is directly related to MU-working compatibility with E231-1000s, i rather think they were choosen to simplify maintainance works for Oyama and Kozu depots (wich have assigned both E231-1000s and E233-3000s).

In fact, E233-3000s have even an higher motor/trailer ratio than E231-1000s (6M4T vs 4M6T), in other words, E233-3000s have two "extra" motor cars than E231-1000s.

The M/T ratio was increased because E231-1000s have a tendency for wheelslip.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Socimi

[200系]

On 5/12/2020 at 11:15 PM, Socimi said:

On 4/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, RossDensha said:

There seems to be an old Tokyu 7000 series in the second video behind the green cars? With its pantos up??

... and the old Tokyu 7000 are apparently being used as "shield" cars, both to protect the cars themselves and to act as a "coupler adapter": the E235s (and many other EMUs) are equipped with shibata-type couplers, while locos (and the Tokyu 7000s) use knuckle couplers. My guess is that those 7000s were retrofitted with a shibata coupler at one end.

 

The "7000 series" is actually a former Tōkyū 7200系 set containing two former DeHa (Mc) cars, DeHa 7206 and DeHa 7208. Tōkyū transferred them to the Ueda Dentetsu in May 1993, were they were reorganized into two car compositions (MoHa 725X/ KuHa 725X). DeHa 7206 was renumbered to MoHa 7252 and mated to KuHa 7557, while DeHa 7208 was renumbered to MoHa 7254 and mated to KuHa 7511. Both units were retired by Ueda Dentetsu in the autumn of 2008, with both MoHa/DeHa cars sold to Tōkyū Sharyō in October of the same year.

 

Tōkyū Sharyō actually bought them for switching/traction purposes (hence buying Mc cars, as opposed to the lighter Tc cars), and used them to replace a similar 7000系 unit they were previously used for the same purpose (of which DeHa 7054 was lovingly preserved, together with DeHa 5201 (first (semi-)stainless steel car produced by the company), on company grounds). They are usually used in push-pull mode with a former Kanagawa Rinkai DD55 (DD55 15), with the locomotive on one end, and the 7200系 on the other end, though lately it seems they're being used to provide braking power rather than traction though.

 

They are, indeed, equipped with a shibata on one end.

 

 

On 5/13/2020 at 11:15 AM, Socimi said:

I'm sure the traction control will be the same SiC IGBT-VVVF used on the E235-0s.

The only possible difference might be that the E235-1000s will have a different gear ratio, more oriented towards speed than acceleration.

 

I don't see them changing the gearing for the E235系1000番台, the E235系 is designed as a general purpose train, similar to the preceding E231系 and E233系, which both used the exact same gear ratio regardless of their use.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 6:26 AM, RossDensha said:

The longer distance E233-3000 (Tokaido Takasaki Utsunomiya) have different motors to the other E233s so that they can operate in multiple with E231-1000 sets. Apparently they're also lighter and smaller.

 

They have, as far as I know, the exact same traction motors (MT75), what differs though is the control system used. For three phase AC traction motors, the propulsion sound (or what is usually perceived as such) is actually produced by changes in the magnetic field of the traction motors.

 

To expand a little, VVVF systems chop the AC sine wave into square patterns, these switching patterns produce an audible frequency, as the motor accelerates the switching patterns move closer together increasing the frequency. Now, similarly to resistors, once these patterns get too close together for too long there's a risk of overheating (the resistors in resistor based traction systems, the transistors in a VVVF system), so it switches to the next pulse pattern, this pattern change is especially noticeable on traction systems using GTO elements as these systems are only capable of handling a limited number of patterns. IGBT elements are capable of smoothing the sine wave even further, thus they are capable of producing less audible switching frequencies.

 

Anyway, the point I was getting at, is that the sound of modern (GTO-VVVF and later) traction systems are determined more so by the specific system used rather then the motor it's self.

There's also quite a difference in sound between the different manufacturers (Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Tōshiba and Tōyō Denki), or even different types/generations from the same manufacturer. The running sound is of-course not limited to just the traction motors, and with most VVVF systems usually the sound made by the drive system takes over after the element has switched to the final pulse pattern (usually somewhere around 1/3 to 2/5 of the maximum service speed of the train in question).

 

A good example to illustrate the difference made by the propulsion system is the E217系 before/after renewal.

 

Before renewal, with original Mitsubishi GTO-VVVF propulsion system (MT68 type traction motor):

 

After renewal, with a Mitsubishi IGBT-VVVF and the same MT68's:

 

On 5/13/2020 at 11:15 AM, Socimi said:

I also doubt that the different inverters (standard E233 have Mitsubishi Electric ones, E233-3000s have Hitachi ones) is directly related to MU-working compatibility with E231-1000s, i rather think they were choosen to simplify maintainance works for Oyama and Kozu depots (wich have assigned both E231-1000s and E233-3000s).

 

I don't think that's it either, I mean other then both using Hitachi made, I don't think there's that much commonality between the IGBT elements used on the E231系1000/3000/8000番台 (SC59A (pre 2003 built) or SC77 (2003~2006 built, or refitted older cars)) compared to the units used on the E233系3000番台 (SC90/SC98). While not necessarily entirely the same, the prototype E231系, E231系900番台 was used to test two different IGBT-VVVF packages, one half of the train used the Hitachi two level SC59A system, while the other half used the Mitsubishi 3 level SC60B system. JR East selected the SC60B system for the commuter based variants (0番台 and 500番台), while the SC59A (and later the SC77 of-course) was chosen for the designated suburban variants.

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true for the E233系3000番台.

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:45 PM, miyakoji said:

When I saw this yesterday I overlooked that these are 235 series, not 217.  It's going to be weird seeing something other than 217s on the Yokosuka/Sobu rapid service.

 

I can't say I blame you, the differences between a SaRo 124/125(113系), 211/212/213 (211系), E216/E217 (E217系), E230/E231 (E231系), E530/E531 (E531系), E232/E233 (E233系) and now the SaRo 234/235 usually come down to the smaller details, which makes it harder to identify them when not coupled to their usual formations (especially when they use a similar color scheme).

 

I have to say I'm really fond of the E217系 as it's probably the series I've used the most while visiting Japan (especially during my first visit) and I've grown to appreciate their design over the years, so I'm not really looking forward to the first retirements coming autumn. They did have solid careers (the oldest cars will reach 26 years of age this August), but still...

Edited May 16, 2020 by 200系

[RossDensha]

Thank you for your very informative answers, 200系、everytime you post, I learn heaps, particularly about that Tōkyū set.

The control system, ah that makes sense now. I didn't differentiate between the two. Apologies

Edited May 17, 2020 by RossDensha

[trainsforever8]

19 hours ago, 200系 said:

 

The "7000 series" is actually a former Tōkyū 7200系 set containing two former DeHa (Mc) cars, DeHa 7206 and DeHa 7208. Tōkyū transferred them to the Ueda Dentetsu in May 1993, were they were reorganized into two car compositions (MoHa 725X/ KuHa 725X). DeHa 7206 was renumbered to MoHa 7252 and mated to KuHa 7557, while DeHa 7208 was renumbered to MoHa 7254 and mated to KuHa 7511. Both units were retired by Ueda Dentetsu in the autumn of 2008, with both MoHa/DeHa cars sold to Tōkyū Sharyō in October of the same year.

 

Tōkyū Sharyō actually bought them for switching/traction purposes (hence buying Mc cars, as opposed to the lighter Tc cars), and used them to replace a similar 7000系 unit they were previously used for the same purpose (of which DeHa 7054 was lovingly preserved, together with DeHa 5201 (first (semi-)stainless steel car produced by the company), on company grounds). They are usually used in push-pull mode with a former Kanagawa Rinkai DD55 (DD55 15), with the locomotive on one end, and the 7200系 on the other end, though lately it seems they're being used to provide braking power rather than traction though.

 

They are, indeed, equipped with a shibata on one end.

 

 

 

I don't see them changing the gearing for the E235系1000番台, the E235系 is designed as a general purpose train, similar to the preceding E231系 and E233系, which both used the exact same gear ratio regardless of their use.

 

 

They have, as far as I know, the exact same traction motors (MT75), what differs though is the control system used. For three phase AC traction motors, the propulsion sound (or what is usually perceived as such) is actually produced by changes in the magnetic field of the traction motors.

 

To expand a little, VVVF systems chop the AC sine wave into square patterns, these switching patterns produce an audible frequency, as the motor accelerates the switching patterns move closer together increasing the frequency. Now, similarly to resistors, once these patterns get too close together for too long there's a risk of overheating (the resistors in resistor based traction systems, the transistors in a VVVF system), so it switches to the next pulse pattern, this pattern change is especially noticeable on traction systems using GTO elements as these systems are only capable of handling a limited number of patterns. IGBT elements are capable of smoothing the sine wave even further, thus they are capable of producing less audible switching frequencies.

 

Anyway, the point I was getting at, is that the sound of modern (GTO-VVVF and later) traction systems are determined more so by the specific system used rather then the motor it's self.

There's also quite a difference in sound between the different manufacturers (Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Tōshiba and Tōyō Denki), or even different types/generations from the same manufacturer. The running sound is of-course not limited to just the traction motors, and with most VVVF systems usually the sound made by the drive system takes over after the element has switched to the final pulse pattern (usually somewhere around 1/3 to 2/5 of the maximum service speed of the train in question).

 

A good example to illustrate the difference made by the propulsion system is the E217系 before/after renewal.

 

Before renewal, with original Mitsubishi GTO-VVVF propulsion system (MT68 type traction motor):

 

After renewal, with a Mitsubishi IGBT-VVVF and the same MT68's:

 

 

I don't think that's it either, I mean other then both using Hitachi made, I don't think there's that much commonality between the IGBT elements used on the E231系1000/3000/8000番台 (SC59A (pre 2003 built) or SC77 (2003~2006 built, or refitted older cars)) compared to the units used on the E233系3000番台 (SC90/SC98). While not necessarily entirely the same, the prototype E231系, E231系900番台 was used to test two different IGBT-VVVF packages, one half of the train used the Hitachi two level SC59A system, while the other half used the Mitsubishi 3 level SC60B system. JR East selected the SC60B system for the commuter based variants (0番台 and 500番台), while the SC59A (and later the SC77 of-course) was chosen for the designated suburban variants.

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true for the E233系3000番台.

 

 

I can't say I blame you, the differences between a SaRo 124/125(113系), 211/212/213 (211系), E216/E217 (E217系), E230/E231 (E231系), E530/E531 (E531系), E232/E233 (E233系) and now the SaRo 234/235 usually come down to the smaller details, which makes it harder to identify them when not coupled to their usual formations (especially when they use a similar color scheme).

 

I have to say I'm really fond of the E217系 as it's probably the series I've used the most while visiting Japan (especially during my first visit) and I've grown to appreciate their design over the years, so I'm not really looking forward to the first retirements coming autumn. They did have solid careers (the oldest cars will reach 26 years of age this August), but still...

This was extremely interesting and informative, you've answered to several questions I've always had! Thank you