Reverse loop with Kato #2 turnout

[Kiran]

I honestly don't know if this is reverse loop or not. But basically I have:

1. S248

2. #6 left turnout

3. On the straight side of #6 turnout, there is a #2 turnout.

4. Bunch of curved track creates loop that connects back to #2 turnout. No other track connects to this loop.

 

Is that a reverse loop?

 

I am on NCE SB5. At the elementary level, I know that this is going to screw up the polarity. So what do I need to do to get this working? I won't run long trains on this loop. It is just a tourist side trip on my large temporary layout. Also trying to gain some experience with things like this.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[cteno4]

Yep if the curved tracks loop from the straight to the divergent rails of the same point it’s a reversing loops where the rails will end up reversing polarity as it comes out of the loop.

 

jeff

[Kiran]

Thanks Jeff. I have been doing some investigation. I am looking to see if there is an auto reverser that can automatically reverses the polarity and throws the Kato turnout and works with NCE system. A tall order. There is the PSX-ARSC but it doesn't look like it supports Kato turnouts. But someone seems to have gotten it working using a 3 wire to 2 wire converter. I would at least be able to reverse the polarity even if I have to manually control the turnout.

[bill937ca]

Its Kato 24-851.  Power Direction Control Switch

Control box allows you to reverse the direction of a track feeder at will in order to easily implement reversing loops.

(Description from katousa.com)

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10275142

Edited April 22, 2020 by bill937ca

[Kiran]

1 hour ago, bill937ca said:

Its Kato 24-851.  Power Direction Control Switch

Control box allows you to reverse the direction of a track feeder at will in order to easily implement reversing loops.

(Description from katousa.com)

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10275142

I think the switch is for DC but my layout is on DCC. Would it work with DCC? I am also trying to switch all my turnouts to NCE Switch-Kat decoders and get rid of the complicated wiring required for Kato power pack and switches.

[cteno4]

ive seen automated options for dcc for reversing loops. starting explanation here

 

https://dccwiki.com/Reverse_Sections

 

jeff

[inobu]

Kiran,

 

Take time to figure out where your goals are in your layout. I say that because the NCE Power Cab is the easiest starter system. The problem is it

becomes limiting when the user starts growing in their modeling goals. Which is what you are experiencing now. Watching your growth you are going to hit a

wall in achieving the next phase.

 

My suggestion would be to go Digitrax BDL168 , AR1 and PR4 to get the computer interface JMRI.

 

Check this link https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-boosters/nce-digitrax-notes

 

Just by looking at your previous post you are traveling into an advance level layout.

 

Just my observation.

 

Inobu

 

[chadbag]

1 hour ago, inobu said:

Kiran,

 

Take time to figure out where your goals are in your layout. I say that because the NCE Power Cab is the easiest starter system. The problem is it

becomes limiting when the user starts growing in their modeling goals. Which is what you are experiencing now. Watching your growth you are going to hit a

wall in achieving the next phase.

 

My suggestion would be to go Digitrax BDL168 , AR1 and PR4 to get the computer interface JMRI.

 

inobu

 

I would assume any loconet compatible occupancy detector and reverser would work (not just Digitrax ?) .  I am not dissing Digitrax, just that it seems that Loconet is really what you want compatibility with...

 

(I am interested in this as I also have an NCE system, but I have the Loconet compatible Digikeijs Dr5000 and Digikeijs detection systems etc. -- though my main interest would be a system to convert the NCE throttle into a Loconet compatible one.)

 

[inobu]

2 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

inobu

 

I would assume any loconet compatible occupancy detector and reverser would work (not just Digitrax ?) .  I am not dissing Digitrax, just that it seems that Loconet is really what you want compatibility with...

 

(I am interested in this as I also have an NCE system, but I have the Loconet compatible Digikeijs Dr5000 and Digikeijs detection systems etc. -- though my main interest would be a system to convert the NCE throttle into a Loconet compatible one.)

 

 

Yes any one would work  (DCC Specialties example) but one begins to piece mill components together and that's when the trouble starts.

 

As for Digitrax, its the turnkey feature makes it appealing. Throttle is bad.... same one from the 90's but it works. .

System Choice

It is all about matching the system up with the long term goals. I had on client that was DC and had nothing to do with DCC.

He was reluctant all the way. Based on the way he ran his trans I got him to go with the ECos system and he's having a ball.

He's converting all his trains now.

 

This the document you want. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/install/LocoNet_for_non_Digitrax_layouts.pdf

The key is the get Loconet to tap into the NCE rail to know what is going on on the track. Check the DR5000 for Railsync connection.

You may be able to link it with the DR5000.

 

I need to get the Digikeijs next to see what it does. That's on my list.

 

Inobu

 

 

[chadbag]

Thanks.  One of my goals was maximum flexibility (and low cost).   And I want to eventually write my own iOS/iPadOS and Mac DCC controller software. 

 

The DR5000 is basically compatible with everything (except NCE).  While most of my add ons (2 block detector modules, a booster, and couple switch controllers) are Digikeijs, I also added in a Digitrax LNWI LocoNet WiFi interface and it just worked.  My throttles are 2x Roco/Fleischmann WLANmaus which connect directly to the DR5000 in Z21 compatibility mode WiFi plus as many WiThrottle apps on phones and iPads as I want through the Digitrax WiFi interface.  I've controlled a bunch of trains at once using the mix of Z21 wireless and WiThrottle wireless throttles.   Since most of the Digikeijs stuff is LocoNet compatible and it works well, I've been looking for other LocoNet compatible throttles to add in.

 

I don't actually use JMRI right now.  I tried when I was running my NCE but never could get it running.  Once we move and I get my permanent train room, I plan on working JMRI into what I am doing.

 

Back to the original poster's problems.

 

I hope Kiran can figure out an easy solution to what he is trying to accomplish.   The "problem" in my mind is the NCE is a closed system, unlike LocoNet, which has adoption across a lot of manufacturers.    NCE recommends the DCC Specialities Auto Reverser products for the loop back "problem" if you don't want to mess with merging NCE and LocoNet.  (No personal experience -- just looking at NCE support FAQ).

 

[Kiran]

At this point, my layout is totally temporary and I am mostly experimenting. I am building modules and I really don't think I will ever have a reversing loop in my permanent layout. But who knows. I am eventually going to work with JMRI for automation.

 

NCE throttles are easier for me to use without sight over Digitrax.

 

I will try the PSX-AR. It is going to take me a while to get it working. I am rewiring the temporary layout right now in the recommended way with a track bus and accessory bus. Running into interesting challenges there. Again experimenting.

[inobu]

My point here and to all is to plan out your objectives and make sure the components you are getting will support your future growth

so you are not wasting Hobby Dollars.

 

Lot of hidden limitations.

 

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205603445-FYI-when-USB-interface-is-used-with-a-SB3-SB3a-or-SB5

 

There's a chip replacement that you might need for JMRI and the SB5.

 

Just saying.....

 

Inobu

[Kiran]

Update on this is that I now have a PSX-AR and it works nicely with the NCE Smart Booster with the test loco I am using. I have to throw the turnout manually for now but I am waiting for a 3 wire to 2 wire converter. I haven't ran a longer train on it yet. Especially trains that have the motor car in the middle. The setup with PSX-AR is very simple. It just worked out of the box pretty much. The loco doesn't hesitate at all when entering/exiting the loop.

[Kiran]

I ran a 10 car Series E231 chuo sobu line with the motor car in the middle through the reverse loop and it enters and exits just fine.

[cteno4]

Cool glad you got it working!

 

Only issue with reversing loop would be tail car could get lights reversed if still on main track when it’s flipped as the train is starting in the loop.

 

also I would not use Tomix all wheel pickup trains as if any are trailing on the main line when the flip happens it will cause a short.

 

jeff

[Kiran]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

Cool glad you got it working!

 

Only issue with reversing loop would be tail car could get lights reversed if still on main track when it’s flipped as the train is starting in the loop.

 

also I would not use Tomix all wheel pickup trains as if any are trailing on the main line when the flip happens it will cause a short.

 

jeff

Good points. No tail light decoders in this train.

 

I think only the newer Tomix trains have all wheel pickup? I have a couple of Tomix Shinkansens but they are not going into the loop. I used single viaduct track and 282 curves. Imagining this as a scenic tourist route ;-).

[cteno4]

Yep mainly Shinkansens in the last 5 or 6 years. I think under dcc w.o decoder both head and tail light will be on full all the time.

 

jeff

[Kiran]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:45 PM, cteno4 said:

Yep mainly Shinkansens in the last 5 or 6 years. I think under dcc w.o decoder both head and tail light will be on full all the time.

 

jeff

I have 2 Tomix Shinkansens. One of them has decoders in the end cars. I disabled lights in the other. Rest of the trains are mostly Kato and I can put FL12 decoders in them. Get around to it one of these days.

[cteno4]

The Tomix with the all wheel power you can see the wires on the sides of the couplers. You might be able to disconnect the power coupler inside the car as I expect somewhere there are metal wires just pressure fitting against a contact pat around the truck area and may be able to just slip a bit of heat shrink over the end to isolate them. The wire pickup I think also can pop out of the coupler as well. I played with the first one I got but it was a number of years ago.

 

the issue of the all wheel pickup will be that power is shared along the whole train and once partway into the wye and the reverser fires it will short across the wye junction.

 

jeff

[chadbag]

23 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

the issue of the all wheel pickup will be that power is shared along the whole train and once partway into the wye and the reverser fires it will short across the wye junction.

 

 

You could probably get around the problem with all wheel pickup with another reverser going into the loop or judicious use of blocks etc.  Not exactly sure how yet....  But blocks big enough to separate when you head back into the main form the back end in the loop.

[Martijn Meerts]

Even end cars without decoder but with head / tail lights in them will cause a short when running through a too short reverse loop. Reverse loops generally should be slightly longer than the longest train going through them.