Tokyo Interurban II

[EdF]

Hello, I am about to start building new modules to update my Tokyo Interurban loop/peninsula.   All modules will be double-wide 21" deep.   This will allow a standard  t-trak set of parallel tracks at module deck height.  parallel elevated shinkansen track and a raised (2") unitram center area space.  The modules are all 1 1/4" thick, using an as yet to be designed beam structure for simpler leveling, an idea I am stealing from someone here.  Along with stealing the idea of using self-adhesive veneer tape on the fronts.  

 

A few items I'd like to see if any of you have ideas/tips on.  What is the off-set from the back of a max depth module to the inside track ballast edge for 33mm space track?  Ideas on wood species for the fronts?  Do I use 1 1/4 and try to be careful, or 1 1/2 and trim it?  Has anyone secured kato double track pylon viaduct supports from the bottom?  Any tips on making a leveling beams that the modules rest on?  Should I drop power from each or say half the modules?  

 

Thanks!

 

 

[cteno4]

Thief! 😜

 

not quite sure what you mean on this. 21” deep modules will mean you need 7” deep modules behind them in a regular single table width setup with standard Ttrak curves. Or are you using a double table for a wider oval to loop the viaduct tracks in back? We looked at doing a modified Ttrak with regular track in front and elevated lines in back a few times. Then big custom corners to deal with looping the elevated tracks in back and set it up in an oval of tables. Always kept running into issues. This was just for show setups. 

2 hours ago, EdF said:

What is the off-set from the back of a max depth module to the inside track ballast edge for 33mm space track?

For out old standard spaced streetcar Ttrak I just made the girders out of 3/4” x 1 1/2” fir i milled down from regular 3/4” planking. I separated them with 3 1/2” dowels and made ours 4’ long as we had about enough modules for 8’ of table most of the time and did this Ttrak for events tight on space and a transport. Used 4 leveling bolts (3 on 4” long and with the off level situations would not work well like 3 bolts can on single or double or even corners). Girders really are important for our one outside show a year that has a bad slope to the ground and we need to cover a 3-4” rise over 8’! You could imagine how hard it would be to correct for that on individual module leveling! Even the faster 3 bolt leveling would be hard. 
 

for veneer wood species it’s up to your taste totally! I really like cherry as it’s a rich looking wood with a bit of color but not too dark. Sort of a happy medium. It takes simple oils well like tung oil (I just get pure tung oil and cut it with lemon oil, no nasty solvent smells just lemon!) and then you can just rub in liquid bees wax for a nice luster if you want to keep it natural finish and be pretty protected. Or varnish if you want a finished look. Natural is usually better on the eye as it just helps the face not stick out. Whole point of the veneer is to make a nice frame that looks pleasant to the eye and as natural as possible and just then falls back. Black or brown paint does not do that!

 

i use the heat transfer veneers. The heat stuff is easiest to find and works well. I have a good trim iron but for module fronts I find it easier to just use an old iron we had extra. The pressure sensitive adhesive backed is harder to get and I’ve always wondered how well it would hold up with time. I like the thermal as she lining up tricky trim I can get it liked up in place and then just tack it down in a couple spots to hold it then start heating it down in place. Contact cement is an option but messy. Regular wood glues are not good options as they are hard and can contract some causing issues with vereers as well as bleeding thru thin tapes. If you use you own glue use hide glue for veneers. I really like the thermal backed as the layer of thermal glue really helps stabilize the veneer against getting damaged.

 

for trimming I’ve use a plain old matte knife along the edge (works but can cause issues), the little veneer edge trimmers (little right angle piece with a razor blade in it to trim veneer flush) and trim routers. I now pretty much exclusively use the trim router. I have a little harbor freight one I got on sale for $15 like 20 years ago and recently got the Ryobi 18v on sale as it was nice to have cordless for some trim routing I do. You can use any router. If it’s a big router just clamp it upside down with a vertical bit with a bearing flush stop on it. Then just trim away like a little router table! It’s uber clean and a quick hit with sandpaper finishes it off. Always best to use larger and trim down as veneer tape is never perfectly straight and will wander back and forth a bit and same goes with over all thickness as it can vary some. Also edged of the tape can get dinged in manufacturing, shipping, handling, etc so trimming off a 1/8” gives the best finished edge. Also just makes it so much simpler when putting it down, don’t have to worry it’s spot on, especially with PSA glue where once it touches its set and hard to get off to reposition.

 

if you will see the back of the modules at all put veneer there as well as it will really help visually to match. I can get you the place I usually order veneers from directly. They are also on amazon along with a couple of other sources there that are good and may be cheaper thru amazon if you just want like a 25’ roll of 1.5”. I think last time I worked it out on our 2” tall modules it added 80 cents to the module’s price for nice veneer front in back. Our total cost is under $5 per module.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[EdF]

The plan is to actually have the elevated track run the outside, with the 15/16 radius corners, but pushed 62mm out toward the edge so that are close to the 18/19 inch radius alignment.   BTW, I know and intend for this to have obstructed sight lines, hopefully not to obstructed, there will also be the monorail line models (static) over the unitram section too.

 

21" deep modules allow for the 19" radius corners all the way around.

 

The doubles for the viaduct will be 62mm (half a 24mm span not permanently attached), 2x 248mm spans permanently attached, 62mm for the next floating 124mm.  On the corners this is what pushed the alignment out.   

 

The loop would be like so, [] double doing N/S, = double going E/W

[]=[]

[]  []

[]  []

[]  []

[]  []

[]=[]

 

As Penisula, the corners at the top would be unique pieces, the viaduct loop would still close and probably have to be free floating on the top center double since the alignment would change between the 2 configurations. 

===

[]  []

[]  []

[]  []

[]  []

[]=[]

 

With the space between the tracks being about 42" (station t-trak alignment will make is narrower than the 46" near the ends) I can fit the unitram in the middle.

Edited April 12, 2020 by EdF

[EdF]

Built first three modules, this will let me test corner configurations.  Made from 1/4" deck and 1/2" frame marine ply.  Probably overkill but voids in such thin frames worried me.  Central brace is just to hold while glue sets.

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by EdF
Smaller photo

[EdF]

So went to order the viaduct track to start test fitting and 124mm double viaduct is not readily available.

[EdF]

So here is a closed corner track alignment.

 

 

[EdF]

And the orientation for being incorporated into a layout.

 

I'll need a short piece on the edge, like 29 or 33mm if I am lucky.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by EdF

[Cat]

I haven't used the Kato Viaduct; can the legs be screwed to the module top? 

Screws seem to provide more reliable security over time for withstanding un/snapping edge connections .

[EdF]

These are from a kit the club had.  I plan to use the poured concrete piers, 23-019.  https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/10003153

 

I hope these can be secured by screws from the bottom.

Edited April 17, 2020 by EdF

[bill937ca]

Its not easy to combine Kato Unitrack and Tomix Fine Track in the same layout because of differences in track centers and joiners. It will make island platforms difficult if not risky for tain collisions with the platforms.  Both manufacturers offer different radius curves and their tracks have different roadbed heights.

 

To do so you need to use the Kato Unitrack Conversion piece.

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003037

[EdF]

Its all Kato.

[bill937ca]

41 minutes ago, EdF said:

Its all Kato.

I was referring to Cat's post.

[cteno4]

Edf,

 

Unfortunately trying to secure the Kato piers does not work well. Our last modular club layout they just kept coming up. epoxying a fitted block of wood into the base of the Y piers can work but they still take a lot of stress. The whole a joiner system ends up making it get stressed in a bunch of different ways, it’s not like a regular Ttrak joint. I ended up cutting a small slot in the center of the viaduct joints at module joints to try to very gently pry the viaducts apart with a screwdriver (how I pop Ttrak modules apart quickly and gently, never busted anything doing it this way). This helped some but over a few years and repairs it just never did well. We thought of creating some bases for the larger concrete piers with notches where each leg of the pier came down and trying to really epoxy it all in place but then new layout planning started.

 

to mount then:

  - get the pier set where you want it, draw a line around the base.

  - take away the pier and drill a couple of pilot holes thru the module top with a bit that would be a good pilot diameter for the screws you will use.

  - place the pier back in place and have someone hold it while you drill back up thru the pilot holes into block in the pier base.

  - now drill out the pilot hole in the module base to the diameter of the screw you are going to use. Best is a machine screw with uniform diameter not a tapered wood screw. Play with the right diameter of pilot hole for your screw, machine screws can hold very well when just the right diameter and your module hole can allow just enough to suck the block down with little or no wiggle room. 

  - screw in from bottom with a washer around the screw so it gets good pull down on the block and least chance of any wiggle. 
 

the modules with viaduct that held up really well were the ones that had the viaduct screwed down to a plywood frame (one set of corners was under a mountain mostly and the other end was embankment and the shinkansen station had a rigid sub base). So on our next layout we are going to create a sub base for all the viaduct to rest on out of 1/8” or 3/16” ply. This will be cut to the shape of the viaduct track to just the inner width of the bottom and be painted gray. This base will rest on custom piers we will just make out of wood that will either just be rectangular walls or kato like Y shaped ones. These can be firmly secured to the module base as above then the viaduct plywood sub-base secured well on top to crest a really sturdy framework. Then the viaduct is screwed down well to the framework. Since the sub base is inset you really won’t see it unless you are all the way down at track level up close and then it will just look like part of the viaduct. 
 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

looking nice! Interesting to see it laid out. We looked at this configuration for a custom Ttrak for the club with viaduct on paper but never ended up getting into mocking it up as it was getting to the size of the sectional layout modules and we were going down this alley to do smaller modules. Always tradeoffs!

 

jeff

[EdF]

No doubt this pushes the limit of ttrak, but our club does shows with several clubs in the mid atlantic and they almost all do ttrak now.

[EdF]

My current intent on the viaduct has it ending 62mm from the edge, 2x248 centered on the module, and use 124mm section to join so they would drop in, I was going to try this today, but the club kit was missing all the s joiners though.  Was thinking i could loosen them up like clipping part of unijoiners were the connection can be less tight, or accounted for elsewhere.

[Cat]

Hmm, brainstorming here...

If anyone at the club, or friends thereof, has good wood-working skills, you could give a shot at hand-made wooden piers just for the end ones that glue and screw to the board, then screw the track down from the top and through the viaduct into the pier.

Is the pier hollow?  Can the bottom be pried off and a wooden plug or two be inserted?  Else bring out the heavy caliber pin vice and drill a 3/8" hole up through it to hold a dowel?

[cteno4]

I’ve done a number of different ways with the Kato Y. Ive glued directly, had a small wood plug the Y sat over with a couple of small screws in the side, and glued a wooden plug in the bottom of the Y and screwed up into it. Gluing popped off, we never got to full on epoxy.  The best was a wooden plug in the base of the pier that you screw up into. Using the method I outlined above it’s pretty easy to fix them exactly where you want just need a second set of hands to hold the pier in place while drilling your tap holes into it thru your module pilot holes. Problem you can’t drill from below at module junctions due to the frame being under there. It’s hard to do much of a mechanical screw support thru the 3/8” wide end half pier to come from the top to screw into the base. We looked at doing a small footer foundation that was about 1/4” larger than the pier base to put small screws thru to pin down the pier from the top since frame prevents from bottom) but just looked a bit fragile when mocked up and not very pretty with the footer exposed (these are usually buried). 

 

On the current layout under construction we first thought we would make wooden half piers at the ends of each module so each side held it. But we had attempted this when gluing the larger concrete piers had failed on the last layout and we went to just making wooden vertical wall piers for each joint and half width ones at module ends and the issues is the end piers get most of the stress and you can only glue them in place to the module. Ours would pop off every so often. That’s why we finally decided to punt and do the viaduct sub base as it as a whole with all the interior piers well screwed in from the bottom and the viaduct sections screwed into it make for a really solid base. The modules that had this on the old layout lasted like 7 years with no issues. It’s just the viaducts take more to get apart usually and why I guess the odd stresses cause more issues than regular track joints (although in Ttrak folks screw up module track joints all the time and why I’m so careful and use the twist of the screwdriver and never an issue.)

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[EdF]

Wow I've always used a screw driver, read it somewhere.  The module end piers concerned me enough that i altered my plan so the piers are ~62mm from the edge and will place the  bridging viaduct at setup.  I already do this in the center of the station for the platforms.  This is were I clipper the unijoiners, i need the electrical for lights, but its pinned in by the 6 tracks around that are using unijoiners, and this time i will probably clip a few of those, even twisting the screw driver doesnt get them all.  The piers are hallow, maybe just making sturdy pegs, then just place the piers and all viaduct at setup?  Could use them to stack modules on when stored too.  Ordered enough to mock this corner up in both configs, we'll see.

[cteno4]

Yeah I’ve used the screwdriver since I started with ttrak. Really works well, I’ve watch folks do all sorts of damage trying to pull, wiggle and even end up twisting modules to decouple! I’ve see them let go and things get smacked on the module on the recoil from the isometrics going on. I jut go done and pop a few apart and then pull one module out then you can go down the line and pop a bunch apart. Problem with teardown is sometimes folks get in a rush to get out.

 

thats a thought to just set up the viaduct on the fly! We sort of did that in the end with the last layout when the piers would come loose and we just didn’t get around to repairs. Could either just make some discs the piers sit in and build viaduct on top or glue the piers down and just pop on the viaduct. Won’t add a huge amount of time to pop the viaduct together. Our first club layout was all set up in the fly with a pretty big viaduct loop like 12’ Long and it was up in like 5 min, the easiest part of the track setup by far. May have to think about that on the new layout here. The next build task was doing the viaduct sub base and was not looking forward to it! Our one problem though is we have some dense ground level track areas under some of the viaduct which require some odd pier placement and size, so that may not work, I’ll have to go noodle the plan. Plan is great at getting a lot into a smaller space while still giving a lot of scenery space and being sectional design, but it means a few odd bits and not as standardized as a modular design.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Cat]

Here's one structural solution that I just stumbled on and we'll steal to use for Ibaraki Shorty.  We do have one elevated connection in the plan and have been puzzling over the best way to secure it.  Technically our track stays level and the ground drops away underneath it to lower farmland, but the net effect is elevated track.  Was just reviewing the Hachioji taki terminal for inspirational ideas for our fuel depot and happened to spot this beautiful bridge abutment with access path up to the tracks. 

 

This type of underpass abutment can be solid wood construction split across the modules' joint:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/hachioji+station/@35.6515628,139.3599271,71a,35y,210.73h,51.63t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

 

For our layout, the abutment fits in a natural transition place with a truss bridge on one module connecting to viaduct track on the next.  Visually, an access abutment should look natural there.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Cat

[cteno4]

Cat,

 

do you have the streetview link for that abutment? Wandered around some but could only find these, nice overpasses.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/4ycXC6shiNTjkU2Y7

 

https://goo.gl/maps/MepnNMkVLXvATHGE6

 

https://goo.gl/maps/RinCRJbVaKXHgQbT8

 

a couple blocks from the station i found this building that I thought would get your eye to model! Look at the photo history for it from 2010 great sequence. Love wandering streets, great neighborhood for interesting smaller buildings and the narrow drainage canals.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/wTwy53K5cvqaoyxz5
 

cheers

 

jeff

[Cat]

Alas, there is no street view with any line of sight to the abutment, satellite overhead and fuzzy angle  views give a pretty good idea of  what's going on with it.

The overpass over at the entrance side of the taki terminal has really fun goblin-tunnel pedestrian walkways.  We'll try to incorporate that with the abutment adaptation too.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.65011,139.357894,3a,75y,312.33h,101.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svAtboCf5Vbt-rGaAddXxCA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

That time-lapse trip through the years at Tricky, Graphic Designer and the vines is fun.  I want N-scale Yamato local delivery trucks!
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6528005,139.3398036,3a,75y,237.02h,85.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPoLK7dhc1vcwjKgEtgcA2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[cteno4]

Yeah I liked the walkways and the whole beam and support structures. 
 

I really want to do that building sometime! Love how you can have places like that in japan. Really is such a schmogas board and why I love modeling japan!

 

yeah so little has been made for black cat, guess there is a heavy license on it for use. But luckily simple and no white except for background so easy to print your own!

 

jeff

[marknewton]

That building is great, very modelable. It has all the features I find interesting like the window grilles, storm shutter and awning. The next one up the street with the external stairs is also very appealing.

 

Thanks Jeff!

Edited April 19, 2020 by marknewton