Double-heading on N scale trains.

[ben_issacs]

Folks, 

In steam days, there was a fair amount of double heading (two locos on the one train) for both freight and pass. trains, especially in mountainous areas.

Probably not so much now-a-days, there is a location out from Hiroshima where an assisting loco is put on the rear of trains, not quite double heading, but similar  effect.

Why I'm bringing this up is that I see that Kato is bringing out a limmited edition of the limestone trains of eleven hoppers and a van, which ran on the Hakubi Line, West Japan, in the mountains of central Honshu.

The great attraction of this operation was that the trains were not just double-headed, but triple-headeed, with three D 51 heavy freight locos on the front.

This operation was a magnet for the fans, and there are many videos of these trains in operation.

Now, back to N scale.

If one wanted to operate this Kato set as a typical limestone train+, one would have to buy three D 51 locos, a considerable cost!

It seems to me that there could be a market for un-motored loco models, D 51's, C 11s, and the smaller diesels for use as assisting locos, either as double-headers or at the rear of trains as bankers or pushers.

With a couple of these 'dumb' D 51's. and an operating D 51, one could run a convincing Hakubi Line limestone train.without having to spend a lot of money.

I doubt whether this will happen,  Kato, or others, will say that they loose money on selling these motorless locos instead of the normal ones, but at the same time they save the cost of motors, wether this balances out one does not know.

Of course, if one has an old D 51 that has karked it, one could remove the motor and use it as a 'dumb' engine.

Regards, 

Bill,

Melbourne.

 

[Kamome]

Yes the cost is worth considering but Japanese N is considerably more cost effective compared with a lot of its counterparts from other nations. 
 

I have a number of steam engines from Kato that work very well together. I do find that when I have double-headed steam engines or have added a banking loco, all my Kato ones have a very similar speed output, meaning there is minimal push/pull on the wagons in between.

 

I was running a C56 with about 10 short wagons on one of the mountain inclines on the rental layout at Kyushu Railway shop this weekend. I’m not sure what the gradient is, but it’s certainly on the limit of realism. The C56 started slipping about half way, with a C12 on the back it was just enough tractive effort to get up the hill. 
 

I appreciate that other manufacturers release dummy units. I find that the cost is similar to that of motorized units in Japan although living here is a great advantage to find things at reasonable prices.

 

The other great thing about Kato is they commonly re-release things so if you can’t complete the whole formation in one go, you most likely able to add things to the consist over time. 

[katoftw]

Been discussed quite a far few times. And yeah The comcensus is the Kato and or Tomix wont make dummy locos.

 

Still today you find de10s and dd51s double heading.

 

The suggestion forwarded a few times was to find junk loco and remove the lights and motors and just run the loco as a trailer dummy loco.

[railsquid]

Tomix has certainly made dummy EF62s, but then they're a natural candidate as they were paired together (and sold in pairs) anyway.

 

But otherwise, the consensus I've seen generally is that for manufacturers, dummy locos don't necessarily cost less to make - the price of the motor is negligible, and may well be offset by additional costs incurred through (at the very least) having to manage a separate step in the production process as well as potentially needing to adapt the design a little (just leaving the motor out may not result in a viable model which can be propelled or pulled).

 

Dapol (UK) is the only manufacturer I've come across who made dummy versions of their locos, and only for electric/diesel locos, and as far as I know, they haven't released any in recent years.

[Martijn Meerts]

The older Niseko Express passenger train was triple headed by C62s on especially steep sections of the line. MicroAce did models of the passenger coaches as well as the 3 C62s, all 3 of them being powered.

 

A potential issue with non-powered steam locomotives, especially in N-scale, is that the drivers might not roll well due to the whole drive rods etc. In order to make all that work reliably, the locomotive needs to be quite heavy, and then the powered locomotive needs plenty power to pull 1 or 2 heavy dummy loco's.

 

I have a couple of steam locomotives that have the motor in the tender, and many of them have issues with the drivers sliding across the track rather than actually rolling.

 

 

[Sheffie]

I do know that Kato recently released the JR Kyushu DE10 as twin locomotives for potential double header use. But the only difference between the two models was that one came with traction tyres and one without. (And the price for the pair wasn’t very high considering their detail.)

[nah00]

The only problem I see is with traction tires possibly. I've run into this trying to double head DD51s. Debated removing the tires but don't know how that will affect the locomotive.

[ben_issacs]

Martin,

With regard to the possible poor rolling quality of a dumb loco, this could still have traction tyres and the internal weight could be half that of the powered model, and with those conditions the dumb loco wouldnt be too much of a drag on the working loco.

Regards,

Bill, 

Melbourne.

[cteno4]

dummy locos need to be pretty stripped down to basically another car to work well.

 

ive double headed a lot of shinkansen models (most tomix 16 car shinkansens and a few other longer trains come this way) with no issues. when i use to do us trains (like 2 decades ago) i could easily do 2 or 3 locos as long as i made sure they were close in speed curves. this meant doing some tuning and lubing and testing until i had sets that worked well together.

 

one of our member has the triple c62 set and it was a nice runner. there were a few issues with a double crossover with all three steamers hitting them a bit funny at times.

 

jeff

[marknewton]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:15 AM, ben_issacs said:

Kato is bringing out a limmited edition of the limestone trains of eleven hoppers and a van, which ran on the Hakubi Line, West Japan, in the mountains of central Honshu. The great attraction of this operation was that the trains were not just double-headed, but triple-headeed, with three D 51 heavy freight locos on the front.

I've seen photos of a loaded train crossing the empty train at Nunohara. So you'd need six D51s if you wanted to model that, which is the most commonly photographed and recognisable scene on the Hakubi line. Easy in N scale, not so easy in HO. It's taken me a while to build my fleet of Kato D51s in 1/80th as they have never been re-released to my knowledge. I currently have 8 of them.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

[ben_issacs]

Folks, 

Perhaps another problem with N scale triple-headers is the power supply to the three locos.

I suspect that with modern DC controllers one could run three locos off the one controller without it overheating too much.

I've done this a few years ago with three HO scale NSWGR Garratts running together, but without a train. the fairly old controller got warm, but survived

How would one go with DCC, would one need three separate controllers, one for each loco.?

More costs!

Mark, where did you get your swag of HO (Japanese HO) D 51's, IMON, or elsewhere?

Regards, 

Bill, 

Melbourne.

 

 

 

 

[katoftw]

A kato throttle handles 1 to 1.5 amps. Enought for 3 to 4 locos.

 

DCC systems have features to run multi loco consists.

[cteno4]

Most controllers of the last few decades can handle 3-4 locos pretty well. My old mrcs when I was a kid could do 3 easily 40+ years ago (I only had one ABB loco set).

 

with Dcc you can gang them up on the controller plus DCC also lets you put a speed curve in for each loco to help speed match them up at all speeds. I’ve seen big ntrak trains with like 7 locos scattered thru a very long freight train. A big bennie of dcc.

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Most DCC systems have 3-4 amps, some go up to 8 amps. I have an ECoS myself, which measures the power being used by all the devices hooked up to it. Running the Kato 800 series shinkansen, with interior lighting in the whole train and in total 3 decoders (1x motor, 2x cab) took up about 225-250mA while running. Modern N-scale motors use very little power, and trains from Kato, Tomix, MicroAce, etc generally run really smooth, so very little resistance.

[ben_issacs]

Folks, 

Thanks for the info about DCC and running several locos off the one controller, 

Much appreciated!

Bill,

Melbourne.

 

[marknewton]

On 2/5/2020 at 11:22 AM, ben_issacs said:

How would one go with DCC, would one need three separate controllers, one for each loco.?

No, you'd be controlling all three locos from one controller/handset. The method used is known as "consisting".

 

https://dccwiki.com/MU_consisting

 

On 2/5/2020 at 11:22 AM, ben_issacs said:

Mark, where did you get your swag of HO (Japanese HO) D 51's, IMON, or elsewhere?

 

They're all secondhand or "pre-owned" Kato models. Seven came from Japan via Yahoo Auctions, and one from and Australian seller on eBay. One of the models from Japan had been knocked about a bit and needed remedial work, but most of the others have had little use. 
 

The Australian seller bought his D51 by mistake when travelling in Japan - he mistook the box for one containing a DD51. So he'd never run the thing at all. 
 

Fellow forum member bikkuri bahn and I have often wondered why Kato has never re-released the D51s, as we share the view that they'd be a popular model that would sell. I'd definitely get some more.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Welshbloke]

I think other manufacturers have essentially said that they won't make dummy locos as the parts they leave out are a relatively tiny part of the total cost. Add to that the need to convince retailers to stock another version which may not sell as well.

 

It may also be that Japanese manufacturers see little point as their locos tend to be pretty consistent. I have a pair of Hokkaido DD51s from Tomix which run very well with a ten or twelve coach sleeper on the back, to the extent that I didn't bother adding the extra ballast weights in the cabs. Eight axles with two motors and traction tyres provides impressive grip!

[Fenway Park]

Micro Ace made a pair of ED75s some years ago. One was powered, the other a dummy. They did not repeat the experiment. 
Tomix made a pair of EF 63s in a similar way, but as has been said earlier, these were used in pairs on the Usui Pass.