Lima & Joef TGV in HO?

[GDorsett]

I picked up the Lima base set (two power cars, one unpowered, and end coaches) at a show a few years ago and set them aside when I realise how bloody expensive (and rare) intermediate cars are. I recently found three intermediate cars for dirt cheap, bringing the train up to five cars, but it still never got run.

Today, I picked up another set from a club mate who was liquidating, it is five cars and two power cars, but the power cars and end coaches are Joef, not Lima, as is one of the intermediate cars. They are compatible, but the power cars on the Joef models are objectively worse in the way of details and paint.

My original plan was to use the two power cars and do...something with the unpowered power cars, but since I have two from two different companies and they're quite different, what should I do with them now?

Will just the Lima pull a full eight car train on it's own without too much struggle or loss of speed?

Does the Joef actually run better than the Lima chassis?

Can I put the Joef powered chassis under the Lima body, or just swap the drive train into the Lima body/chassis? Would they even run okay together?

Would I be better off getting another Lima power/end car set and selling the Joef power/end cars?

 

Also, has anyone ever modified the ends of a Lima or Joef TGV model so a coupler is exposed for them to be coupled together or be pulled?

P.S.
Can provide pictures if necessary.

Edit:
I am also considering using the second pair of end cars in the middle of the train so I can break it in half when I need to store it in a small siding. Was something like this ever done or were TGV sets never really broken apart except for maintenance or testing?

Edited November 17, 2019 by GDorsett

[GDorsett]

After looking over this Joef TGV further, I may end up deciding to get rid of all the Joef parts and going for a full Lima set. The Joef set just isn't what the Lima is and this particular one is kind of in a bad way.

Still got a hell of a deal, though.

[Socimi]

The problem with the Lima TGV is that they made a crapload of 4-car sets to be put in start-sets and "golden series" train packs, but made relatively few add-on cars.

 

Jouef models usually have a lower finish and are less detailed than Lima ones (especially comparing models from the late '70s - early '80s, but by the 1980s onward, jouef finish got progressively better), why is this so, i'm not really sure about, but probably because at the time, jouef was far less wealthy than Lima.

 

PSE TGVs ran in 2 motor units + 8 trailers, meaning that for a full set you'll need a base 4-car sets and 2 3-car add-on sets.

[GDorsett]

So far, I have two power cars, two end cars (from a Golden Series set), three intermediate cars (all separately boxed cars, not an add-on set), and a bar/café car (unknown origin), making a six car, eight unit train. The Jouef train is two power cars, two ends, and two intermediates, but has a damaged clip that I'm not sure how to go about replacing, so I'll just get rid of the second set. I must have one of the older sets because the fitment on tje front ends is poor and the rest of the train is lacking in details and paint quality.

I just need two more intermediate cars, so I will continue to scrounge EBay and my favourite shows to see what pops up for reasonable prices.

Edited November 19, 2019 by GDorsett

[jappomania]

a little bit of confusion....😋
about your question of Jouef coupling modify etc... my answer is, don't waste time, quality of reproduction and molding is different and lower than Lima
of course, TGV PSE has been reproduced also from other manifacturer like Bachmann, Fobby, Playart but with much less quality, not the complete car formation and uncompatible coupler.
I limit my info about original LIMA ITALY production, the new Hornby/Lima is expensive (around 600€ for a 10 cars) and with a lot of error that I can't justify.
Lima first production type (1980-1995) was the typical 4 cars set (M1+R1+R8+M2) with single boogie G motor type and 3 type of add-on cars, first class (R2+R3), Bar (R4) and second class (R5+R6+R7)
in 1996 the mold has been completely remade, (it was for collector, not toy like the previous production), with central motor and flywheel, refined pantographs and details, high quality painting, new coupling system etc..
it was released in 4 cars basic and 2 x 3 cars add-on set, these sets mantain the high value because till now are the only high quality TGV PSE correctly reproduced

 

about your TGV, I saw only the photo of your 3 second class cars, you need one BAR and 2 first class (and the 4 cars basic set, of course!) for a correct train formation, but is not so simple....
(put the photo of other items you bought so I can help you to identify it)

 

little guide for buyer:
normally never buy start set with trafo and track because some sets has been produced like economy version (4 or 5 cars, simplified pantos and painting, no light and no glass, plastic wheels...good for kitbashing)
starting with the square box with 4 cars (Gold Series blue, gold or silver cover) is reccomended and that's simple, but the biggest problem is that Lima released different set and add-on cars with the same item code during 15 years of production
Basic set code was 109711 (just the first batch) and 149711, first class car was 201100, second class was 201094 and BAR was 201097, but with the same code you find 3 different type of cars and the risk to mix different types is high if you buy based only to code.

 

3 different PSE type has been reproduced;

 

PSE prototype (02 Sophie during trial run - 1980/81)
109711 - locos whithout numbers and without the third light on the rooftop, prototype side panel-grill arrangement, simplified pantos, without aerodynamic cover on the roof of R1+R8 (reduced on loco rooftop)
201097 - car R4 first class with BAR logo (applied only on PSE 02 during test trial), boogie with original spring suspension and LIGHT gray frame
201094 - 201100 1/2 class car, boogie with original spring suspension and LIGHT gray frame

 

PSE 16 (speed record - 1983/84)
149711 - locos with train number on driver door, TGV logo and speed record plaque, third light and standard side panel-grill arrangement, standard Lima panto (not prototypically correct but improved), aerodynamic cover on the roof of R1+R8
201097 - second class car R4 BAR (no logo),  boogie with original spring suspension and DARK gray frame
201094 - 201100 1/2 class car, boogie with original spring suspension and DARK gray frame

 

PSE 113 Neuchatel (1988/89) or 28 Montelimar (1991/1992)
149711 - locos with train number on driver door and city crest on R1+R8, new TGV logo , modified V300 "Renov 1" side panel-grill arrangement, improved Lima panto (not yet prototypically correct), rooftop insulators and painting
291097 - second class car R4 BAR with new little windows opened near the rooftop for extended BAR section, boogie with MODIFIED AIR SUSPENSION with lower corner car cut, improved painting
201094 - 201100 1/2 class car, boogie with MODIFIED AIR SUSPENSION suspension with lower corner car cut, improved painting

 

note: prototype an PSE-16 basic set single cars has been sold also separately with code 201095/96/98/99 but not for long time

(it's curious, Lima TGV PSE 16, 28 and 113 in N scale used different item code for relative basic set and single add-on cars)

the coupling system never changed, excluding the R4 BAR, chassis of intermediate cars with spring suspension is the same, if necessary the boogie frame can be painted in dark grey or switched with another one (on ebay.it or fr is not so hard to find)
mixing cars with spring and air suspension is not so good, in evidence the cut on lower corner for accomodate the new suspension type and also the better quality of painting for the last productions
the risk of different orange tone between first and last batch of production is low but exist

typical defect on used cars is the broken insulator on the rooftop end, factory paint was not bad but the white stripe sometime need "attention" (don't cover so good the orange below, some people prefer to repaint or apply a white decal strip to improve the quality, in the past a dry transfer decal sheet with stripe and class number has been produced from R41 for Clarel french shop)

 

classic improvement:
normally one G motor is enough for 10 cars, but whit a little more weight and DCC conversion run better, eventually is a good idea to find another one basic/start set or single powered car in bad condition for kitbashing and transplanting the motor chassis to the unpowered car.
the better solution (but not so easy, require some cut & paste work) is transplanting the metal frame whit motor, flywheel and boogie from Mehano TGV
Hornby PSE Panto kit (4 pantos, insulators etc.) can be used to rebuild/improve the roof line, but is not cheap (around 50-60€)
also a complete repaint is possible, but unfortunatelly a lot of small detail like decals, logos, spare parts etc. produced in the past are no longer available or hard to find
original pizza cutter wheels/axle can be easily changed with new spare parts (e.g sold by Benno02 shop on ebay), during the years Lima used axle with different diameter wheels so maybe your TGV rooftop line go up and down

 

p.s. correct price for PSE start set is from 50 to 80€ (100-120 for PSE 28/113)
and 30-35€ for single cars (40-50 with air suspension)
in good used condition, a little more if "new or like new"

 

ciao
Massimo

 

(sorry for my bad english....)

[GDorsett]

I have the blue box, Gold Series basic set for power and R1/8 end cars. The Bar car I have has the dark grey bogies (or trucks) and spring suspension details, the three other cars have light grey bogies and spring suspension details. Looks a little odd, but I figured this was due to different age/materoals as opposed to prototype.

The pantographs on this model are fairly nice other than being crooked. They look a lot like the ones Bachmann used on their Acela set later one.

[jappomania]

I think you already have 80% of TGV 16 complete, you need only a couple of 1st class coach (and maybe 3 dark gray jakobs boogie, but is not necessary for cars coupling and run)

here you find some scans of LIMA old catalogs

http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/LIMA/Cataloghi/Lima_Cataloghi.htm

so you can match your items

http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/LIMA/Scatole/Lima_Eloluzione_Box.htm

the box evolution - on used market you can't be 100% sure that the content match the box, but this help.
also during the graphic switch is possible that different boxes had been mixed, in '80 Lima was a toy maker company, they used anything still available on warehouse

your 3 second class cars I think has been produced for PSE prototype (box type, light grey boogie frame), but like I told, the difference is only the boogie frame color (and maybe the wheel diameter)
if needed, single arm panto on TGV 16 was the same mounted on some other Lima locos in the same period, not hard to find like spare part (life was easy, 3 panto type in 2 colors etc..)

 

ciao

Massimo

 

 

 

 

[GDorsett]

Should I take some pictures of my current set so you can better see?

[jappomania]

if you want & have time...👍

[Socimi]

Yes, it will be of quite an help.