Another Sheffie layout

[Sheffie]

As you can see, I've scaled back on the sidings a lot, to leave room for the rest of it.I can keep 3 EMU/DMU passenger trains and up to 4 freight trains on the layout. (When I get my Blue Symphony, I will have 4 EMUs, and I already have enough freight to fill those sidings).

I've planned out a slow climb (less than 2%) to 60mm. Hopefully that is enough for the bridges. Hopefully, too, the precipitous drop down the spiral of doom won't break anything. SCARM thinks it's 4.6%.

So, I have technical concerns, but in terms of artistic feel, I quite like it.

 

EDIT: mever mind the silly camera angles. Here's what it looks like from the POV of someone actually in the middle of the room.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Sheffie

[lighthouse]

A big Layout Sheffie, but this tight curve in the middle is a visual disturbance. Would it be possible to install radii of r = 481mm? That would defuse the curve a bit.

[Sheffie]

Lighthouse, I’ve revised the layout since then. The newest version is at the bottom of page 1. 

[Sheffie]

Revised, in order to allow a double loop using the double crossover (a route going around the outer loop then crossing to the inner and either running along the mainline or taking the scenic forest line. A few minor tweaks, such as shortening the freight sidings to allow a road to pass, and rotating the engine shed to allow another engine siding.

 

Crossings are added on the left to allow road access to the station and container yard.

 

Between the bridges there is space for a mine working, and (if I can find the right building) this will be a spot for trains to load ore.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Sheffie

[cteno4]

Nice, feeling mellower and now nice running options. 

 

Could look at making the highest loop at the bridge longer to the left and have it tunnel as well in that corner to make it not as visible a tight loop in the center and train disappear more to make it harder to see the path. Allows a big slope in that corner so sort of a corner cut off of a small mountain for some runs scenery at little space cost. Could do some exposed rock work and steep forest.

 

Hiding the visual path is one of the best things to help make the layout seem bigger I. The mind’s eye. As soon as the minds eye really knows the path it seems that the pre knowledge of where the train will he makes things get smaller in the head.

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

Possibly something like this

https://www.ebay.com/p/Model-Power-N-Blue-Coal-DEPOT-Mpc1506/2255625460?iid=333294102333&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=333294102333&targetid=596465665108&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9009749&poi=&campaignid=1689407483&mkgroupid=74365778108&rlsatarget=aud-412677883135:pla-596465665108&abcId=1140476&merchantid=6296724&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh5zIh7ea5AIVzf_jBx1dBQEVEAYYASABEgL4FvD_BwE

 

Hope the link isn't nonsense.

If it is, it's a "Blue Coal Depot" by "model power"

 

[Sheffie]

44 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Could look at making the highest loop at the bridge longer to the left and have it tunnel as well in that corner to make it not as visible a tight loop in the center and train disappear more to make it harder to see the path. Allows a big slope in that corner so sort of a corner cut off of a small mountain for some runs scenery at little space cost. Could do some exposed rock work and steep forest.

 

Thanks Jeff. Extending the loop was something I was vaguely considering, but you've made a good case for it. And yes, making it into a tunnel is a real win.
I wouldn't want that to be a big mountain though, because the left hand edge of the layout will be open to the room. But certainly a sizeable hill.

[cteno4]

Yeah it will be a sizable hill but you can exaggerate it a bit and just have a small corner of it lopped off, remaining on the corner of the layout and the mind’s eye can make up the rest of the mountain/steep hillside not there. Luckily japan has a lot of this very steep vertical terrain/scenes!

 

outside edges can just be profiles cut from styrene or foamcore that can Velcro in place to give access to the tunnels in case of derailments and to clean track. Profile on the outside looks good as it creates a silhouette that makes the mind’s eye extend it. You can also get away with quite a bit of vertical exaggeration with n scale as well to play with the mind’s eye. One of the reasons I like n scale.

 

Jeff

[Sheffie]

I don't know how to set up SCARM with actual terrain. It's just doing the minimum needed to cover the tunnels. But anyway...

[cteno4]

This is where actually building it up with cardboard, crumpled news paper and masking tape can help play with scenery ideas. You can mock the comer up easily to play with ideas.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

I feel like I'm homing in towards the underlying concept.

Quite a few changes here.

• The mainline curves at the top of the layout are expanded to R315 and R348—which I've never used before, but hopefully will look more graceful.
• No tunnels. I can always add some, but right now it doesn't need any.
• The mine is now 65mm above chart datum. This may be more clearance than I need, in which case the slopes will be less severe. But I wanted to know I could achieve this height without exceeding 2% on the upward slope, in case it was needed.
• The position of the mine/mountain have shifted again, to allow the entry and exit of the "mine loop" to fall either side of the double crossover. This allows a single train to ride around the mine loop and then the inner and outer mainline loops without any changes in controls, something I've been thinking of as the "grand tour".
• I've added an extra freight siding and an extra locomotive siding. Swapping out EMUs on the front sidings is one thing, but freight trains and locomotives are a lot more fiddly and I'd like to keep all of the latter on track at all times.
• revised level crossings, one on either side, allow vehicle access to the container yard and the locomotive storage/maintenance area.

 

And no, I still haven't altogether given up on the idea of a turntable, although it does seem to be demand a lot of space (and money). 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Sheffie

[cteno4]

It’s good to keep fiddling with it until it feels right.

 

you are spot on it would be easy to add a hill in the corner with tunnels later if you want it. Could even have it removable for a change of scenery now and then!

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

Looking at the 3D render, that slope is way too steep by the end of the girder bridge. So that part of the mainline should almost certainly be a tunnel.

 

ETA: Looking at it, I've just realized that this layout doesn't allow a grand tour (going around all 3 loops before repeating). I will need another rethink 🙂

Edited September 2, 2019 by Sheffie

[cteno4]

Layout design is always an eternal compromise, but fiddling and not trying to force it too fast you can find that sweet spot usually.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

Okay, it's getting harder to make everything fit, and still have the track look nice. I've gone through some very hideous / utilitarian track plans, and for now I have settled on this.

 

The front half is unchanged, but I have rearranged the mountainous parts again. It's now possible to run around all the outer loop, most of the inner loop, and the mine branch, continuously. And the climb up to the high point actually looks okay, I think. And there aren't any terribly steep slopes (okay, one or two, but I can handle those).

 

 

[Sheffie]

This variant has the steep parts squished together and concealed in tunnels, which gives a lot more space for nice gentle slopes and curves. The line leading up hill to the mine area now has nothing worse than an R249. The R150 is still needed on the down-slope but it is now hidden in a tunnel.

 

I may even find space for a little pond in the middle, which would be nice because i have an idea for some plants that might make it look pretty.

[Sheffie]

Okay, one more and I think I'm done.

I've gone back to the idea of a mainline loop that does not go around the outside of the layout. This gives me a lot more space for my rolling stock, and simplifies the terrain quite a lot (inside the loop is hilly, outside is flat). It also moves all manually switched points to the front of the layout, and I'm rather pleased that they almost all have the actual switch facing the front. There should be no need to reach over anything to select a locomotive, freight siding, or EMU. I have also managed to find a space for my engine shed (south-west corner) and my rural passenger and freight platforms. Previously I'd been afraid that these would just get shelved, since I was expanding to the DX suburban platforms, but I am now using them to service the coal mine in the north-west corner of the map. In theory the rural freight station will bring in supplies and hardware for the mine; in practice, it will store the older freight stock (WaRa 1 boxcars, Toki 15000 gondola and Yo 8000 guard's van) that I never quite find the time to run. All the tunnels are in the north-west corner, which will be the mountain containing the coal mine. That's the corner of the room, so it fits nicely.

This is the view from the right hand end, which will be the end that's open to the room. It gives a nice view of the winding valley line that runs up to the coal mine (perhaps this is more like Wales than Japan?) and in the foreground we see the main sidings for locomotives. I've only filled out four sidings, for now, but that already leaves me room for expansion -- there's one empty siding here, and one spot in the engine shed next to the SL 57-180. 

 

Things that I'm a little sad about:

- I'll be abandoning the narrative of setting the layout somewhere on the Ban-Etsu West line in Niigata. I was running a Kyushu DE10 already. But recently I added a Chinese locomotive (the double DF11Z), and there may be another one. I'm hoping to get Chinese coal cars and passenger coaches too.

- There is a very long branch line between the freight yard and the main line. Freight trains will have to be shunted along this line on their way back to the yard.

- I wasn't able to fit in the GreenMax train repair plant. This was very nearly something that was going to work, but in trying to get an idea of its footprint, I found a diagram shows the track spacing of 37mm, which is I believe the standard Tomix Finetrack spacing.

- There isn't anywhere for the 248mm silver truss bridge. On the other hand, that bridge always looked a little bit too tall and narrow for my taste, which is why I chose the green plate bridge for the one site on the layout.

- While I was able to fit an extension to the island platform, allowing it to take 7/8 car trains, there isn't quite room to add an extension to the one-sided platform due to the returning line from the coal mine.

 

Here's the plan, for those who are interested.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Sheffie

[Kiha66]

Looks great Tim!  Which kit is the train repair plant?  I know some GM kits come with spacing options for both kato and tomix track systems.

[Martijn Meerts]

Looks good, lots of options. I wouldn't worry too much about the long-ish line to the freight yard, it's not actually un-prototypical to have it like that. Close to where I live there's a line branching off the main line that goes into some sort of factory.  Trains are often pushed onto the factory's yard.

 

As for this being the last plan, there's no such thing in model railroading 😄

 

[Sheffie]

6 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

Which kit is the train repair plant?  I know some GM kits come with spacing options for both kato and tomix track systems.

 

The one I’ve been looking at:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/10175006

[Sheffie]

Another minor alteration.

I was concerned that the slope down from the bridge would be too steep (at 6%) and I was also bothered by not being able to have two mainline platforms of the same length, so I re-routed the down-line to rejoin the main line opposite the freight yard branch in the top-right corner. (Yes, it's crying out for curved points; no, I'm not switching to Tomix Finetrack.)

• The downhill section is now 4% at most, and has very gentle curves on the sloping part. I feel a lot more confident that trains will be happy going down it.
• Of course, I now have enough space to install one suburban platform DX kit (one-sided to the north, island to the south) with one extension piece on either side. That's a big win, for me. Those platforms will all take 7 or maybe 8 car trains now.
• This also meant that I had to re-do the inner winding uphill line too. This one doesn't look quite as nice, in my opinion, but it will do.
• While I was editing the layout, I decided to go ahead and plan to put level crossings inside the tunnel. This is purely for the benefit of re-railing trains, of course. There's nowhere on the main loop that I wanted to install a road crossing. The container yard (the long blank diagonal next to the longest freight siding) already has a road exit to the south, and most of the other miscellaneous station buildings will have access to that, although I don't plan on building a road network.

 

One concern with the crossings in the tunnel -- is it possible that they might cause derailments? I haven't seen it, but if there's any possibility of that, I might think twice about installing them. I'd rather correct the occasional errant wheel than sometimes have to open up my mountain/tunnel.

[cteno4]

1 hour ago, Sheffie said:

One concern with the crossings in the tunnel -- is it possible that they might cause derailments? I haven't seen it, but if there's any possibility of that, I might think twice about installing them. I'd rather correct the occasional errant wheel than sometimes have to open up my mountain/tunnel.

nope they are great for rerailing like that, don’t need the road ramps on the side. 
 

6% is pretty extreme grade.

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

Here's an interesting little thing.

I said I couldn't put the nice Greenmax train repair factory in this layout, because it wants a 37mm track spacing.

Well, who ever said you couldn't get a 37mm track spacing with Kato Unitrack?

 

[cteno4]

There is also a much shorter option with #4 point. Not at my computer right now, but can dig it up tomorrow eve.

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

On 11/3/2019 at 12:17 AM, cteno4 said:

There is also a much shorter option with #4 point. Not at my computer right now, but can dig it up tomorrow eve.

 

jeff

I would be very interested to see this!