MA DD51-1059 too much shake/rattle, not enough roll

[Sheffie]

This is their most recent reply to me (stripped of header/footer stuff):

 

Quote

In your message, you had stated you expect an item in good working order
or refund, but we see you have already filed a dispute to PayPal
for the refund.
Can we assume you are opting for a refund rather than repair?

As for your doubts, we cannot deal used items as we do not have license
for sales of second hand goods. So your item could not be used before you.

But the possibility of the manufacturer checking the wrong model remains,
and if we are to get validation for this, we may need to ask them
how many of that model they are currently working on and if they actually
do anything to manage these.
We would like to also confirm with you if you had cleaned your rail
before you running the train, and if not, how long ago you had cleaned it.
We know this is very basic and if your other models are fine on your layout,
it shouldn't be a problem, but they were passionately explaining
that it only takes little dust to reduce electricity flow of the rail
to your train wheel, so we thought we should check with you just in case.


Now, if you would like to go ahead with the refund, we will accept
your demand this time.
However, please be noted that we are not always able to offer refunds,
as we cannot do anything for items the manufacturer judge as not defective.

Anyway, please let us know how you want us to proceed.
We appreciate your confirmation greatly, thank you very much.

 

...and this is what i sent back to them...

 

Quote

I filed a request for a refund with PayPal because they have a deadline for such things, and I felt that I needed a backup plan in case you and the manufacturer both refused to do the right thing.

To clarify: my first preference is to receive a train model that is in good working order.

I have discussed this matter with other model train enthusiasts and they have pointed out that MicroAce quite often puts too much grease on their new locomotives. If that was the case, it would explain why the model was not running smoothly, and also why it had picked up a large amount of dirt in a very short time.

Once again, I must state that this was a car that showed serious problems immediately— right out of the box, and none of the other trains that I run (manufactured by Kato, Tomix and GreenMax) have had any such trouble, even after running for many months. If the problems I saw were caused by pickup of dust and dirt, the ultimate cause must be the presence of an excessive amount of grease on the model.

If you can persuade the manufacturer that their model malfunctioning within two minutes is indeed their responsibility, I am happy to accept a model that’s been restored to full working order—as long as my expenses are paid.

If I am not going to receive a model in good working order, then a refund is acceptable. Note that I have only asked PayPal to refund the original purchase and shipping costs. The cost to me of returning the model to you is not their responsibility. In this case, I hope that you will refund my shipping expenses, as you originally offered.

 

That was 11 days ago.

 

If they were spending that time negotiating with MicroAce on my behalf, they haven't said anything about it.

 

I wish I'd known that they would react so strongly to me raising a PayPal dispute with them. Unfortunately, once I started looking into it, it looked like there was a time limit—I felt that I had to start the ball rolling before Sept 30th, so that's what I did.

 

I stand by these bridges, though, burning as they are. If they are pissed off with me, the feeling is more than mutual. In addition to basically being called a liar (a mortal insult to someone who was raised as a Quaker) I'm still out of pocket for the return shipping, and the only way I can hit back at them is to take my business elsewhere. So that's what I'm going to do - cost them whatever profit they would have made on, let's say 300,000 yen a year (based on what I spent with them so far in 2019).

[katoftw]

Hey you gotta do what you gotta do. If you are happy to walk away from them completely. All good.

[cteno4]

You can always wait up to very near the paypal time limit to start the dispute if it gets to that. You can also use it as an inventive for them to get moving saying you will need to file a dispute by xyz to get their attention. Like I said most all businesses really react badly with disputes so usually last resort. 

 

If the model was over greased then any dust around will stick so it will show up. It does sound like they are trying to work thru this and a Little is also getting lost I feel translation. I’m sure ma has been sent some trains that were packed with crud, I’ve cleaned out some doozies for club members in the past that I was surprised they would even run.

 

The few trains I've ever had poor running out of the box I’ve usually just fixed myself as the hassle and cost of returning for repair is going to be a lot and potential of these situations occurring. Part of having this kind of hobby and not something at the corner store.

 

best to spend your money where you think it gets you the best business.

 

jeff

[chadbag]

Too late now, but if Sep 30 is the PP deadline, you still had over a week, since today is the 22nd and I assume the PP dispute was a day or three ago.

 

Can you withdraw it?  Tell HS you will withdraw it if they can work it out with MA seeing as you had just opened it up and run it for 2 minutes and the problem manifested itself immediately.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by chadbag

[Martijn Meerts]

Something to keep in mind as well, is that Hobby Search usually only employs 1 person who does all the English communication. In the past, that often was a temp worker that was only there once or twice per week.

 

I've always had good experiences when contacting Hobby Search myself, they've been able to get me spare parts / replacement parts for World Kougei kits, and if World Kougei themselves noticed something was wrong and parts needed replacement with a kit, Hobby Search always passed them along to me at no additional cost, not even shipping cost. However, it did sometimes take them a while to get back to me with a reply, and usually that was indeed because they were (in my case) checking whether they could get the parts or not.

 

And yeah, things like PayPal disputes and credit card chargebacks and such aren't taken lightly by most Japanese companies. I play an MMO by a Japanese company, and I've heard of people doing a credit card chargeback because some reason or the other, and they basically immediately get banned for life, not just from playing that game, but also from buying anything from their store (including physical merchandise).

 

[Sheffie]

HS has got back in touch. They are refunding most of the money I spent, and crediting my account with 1000 points (equivalent to 1000 yen if I still want to do business with them).

 

 It’s not everything I wanted but it’s enough. 

[nah00]

I've had things go both ways with HS, sometimes they're great with service (they were able to get the instructions for an OOP Kato set for me and sent it EMS to me for free) and sometimes not so great (one of my Shinano Railway 115s had a broken pantograph, I just ended up ordering the part myself after not hearing from them for 5 days). Since it is likely a temp/PT position and there probably only is one person I can see how sometimes issues aren't resolved exactly as we may like.

 

Another possible issue (and I'm not defending HS here, just a general comment) is that some people will return or demand replacement of items with trivial 'defects' (bent box corner, very small bad paint app, etc). This kind of behavior makes it hard for a company sometimes to sort good and bad complaints. 

 

Also if you still have the DD51 I volunteer to take a look at it for you, can't guarantee anything since I've only taken apart a MA ET-127. 

[Sheffie]

Thanks for the offer, which I really appreciate — but as far as I know the locomotive is still with MA. This would have been resolved very differently if I had the model.

 

lesson learned: it is necessary to be much more of a hands-on, can-do enthusiast, and much less of a “this is wrong, make it right for me” consumer. 

[Kamome]

I think it’s also important to remember that HS were relaying the manufacturers response, frustrating as it is. Considering the huge range of items that HS carry, I would imagine they wouldn’t be hugely knowledgeable regarding individual items and rely heavily on manufacturers to deal with any QC issues. 

 

As MA washed their hands of the responsibility, it’s one of those judgement calls whereby the retailer either takes the hit, or annoys the customer. 

 

I’m surprised that for such a small monetary amount, HS didn’t just rectify it in the beginning but I guess it’s a learning experience for both parties. And possibly frustration should be aimed towards MA rather than HS when you consider future purchases.

[Sheffie]

This sounds like good advice, @Kamome

 

Certainly I won’t be buying any micro ace trains for some time. 

[nah00]

17 hours ago, Sheffie said:

lesson learned: it is necessary to be much more of a hands-on, can-do enthusiast, and much less of a “this is wrong, make it right for me” consumer. 

 

I will say there's a great amount of satisfaction gained from trying to fix something, ending up making the problem worse or creating a new one but then in the end correcting the problem and your mistake. 

[railsquid]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:45 AM, Sheffie said:

Certainly I won’t be buying any micro ace trains for some time. 

 

The great thing about MicroAce is that while for the most part their mechanisms are quite sound (stay clear of the DD16 and associated snowploughs however), under- or over-lubrication from the factory means previous owners are happy to dispose of them at ridiculously reasonable prices, and me and my little bottle of Kato Unioil bought in 2014 will be more than happy to restore them to full working order.

[nah00]

I'm tempted to buy one just to see what the mechanism is like. There's only so many ways to make it but how easy it is disassemble is another story. 

[Welshbloke]

My lone Microace train (a 185 Series in the ski paint scheme) is in the queue for a long term overhaul. It has the following flaws:

 

Ridiculously high friction pickups on the KuHas (needs new bogies with pinpoints, not the blade style pickups).

 

Mechanism simultaneously fills the entire SaRo and doesn't work properly. It runs slower than anything else I own, and I'm convinced that either the motor is expiring or the rubber tubes connecting it to the worm drives are slipping. The snag here is that I'd ideally like to fit a new mechanism to one of the MoHas and convert the SaRo to a trailer with normal glazing and interior. Oddly enough none of these parts are available. I'm not sure whether Kato parts would fit or if MA made their bodies to slightly different dimensions.

 

It's pretty old, but so is the Kato 153 Series (with the old chunky motor and the two separate bits of clip-on underframe hiding the driveshafts) which happily whirrs around as a ten car set.

[railsquid]

15 hours ago, nah00 said:

I'm tempted to buy one just to see what the mechanism is like. There's only so many ways to make it but how easy it is disassemble is another story. 

 

Multiple units are pretty straightforward and generally the same principle as Kato/Tomix.

 

Locomotives are variable, sometimes straightforward, sometimes a bit of a puzzle which might mean removing glued parts. In all cases disassembly is much easier than reassembly, photos of each disassembly step essential, particularly for the decorative external parts for which no obvious direction of insertion/attachment is available.

[railsquid]

6 hours ago, Welshbloke said:

My lone Microace train (a 185 Series in the ski paint scheme) is in the queue for a long term overhaul. It has the following flaws:

 

Ridiculously high friction pickups on the KuHas (needs new bogies with pinpoints, not the blade style pickups).

They stopped using those pickups sometime in the early/mid 2000s.

 

If it's of any help, the wheelsets are interchangeable with the old-style Tomix ones.

 

Quote

 

Mechanism simultaneously fills the entire SaRo and doesn't work properly. It runs slower than anything else I own, and I'm convinced that either the motor is expiring or the rubber tubes connecting it to the worm drives are slipping.

 

 

I have yet to encounter one of those, sounds like a remnant from the Shinano Micro days.

 

Quote

The snag here is that I'd ideally like to fit a new mechanism to one of the MoHas and convert the SaRo to a trailer with normal glazing and interior. Oddly enough none of these parts are available. I'm not sure whether Kato parts would fit or if MA made their bodies to slightly different dimensions.

 

No idea, but wouldn't surprise me if the dimensions are at least slightly different.

[nah00]

14 hours ago, Welshbloke said:

Mechanism simultaneously fills the entire SaRo and doesn't work properly. It runs slower than anything else I own, and I'm convinced that either the motor is expiring or the rubber tubes connecting it to the worm drives are slipping. The snag here is that I'd ideally like to fit a new mechanism to one of the MoHas and convert the SaRo to a trailer with normal glazing and interior. Oddly enough none of these parts are available. I'm not sure whether Kato parts would fit or if MA made their bodies to slightly different dimensions.

 

It probably is the rubber tubes slipping, especially if when you redline it on the throttle it still crawls but you can hear the motor going full tilt. Life-Like used a similar mechanism in diesels here in the US and they inevitably wear out or can bind the motor, especially when used in typical basement conditions.