Train on train- JR Hokkaido

[bikkuri bahn]

While walking near the JR Hokkaido Naebo Workshops, I spotted the experimental "train on train" transporter.  It allows roll-on roll-off of koki 100 container flat cars onto standard gauge cars.  This will enable high speed freight operations through the Seikan Tunnel under the Tsugaru Straits when shinkansen operations begin (est.) 2015.  Apologies for quality of pic, it was taken with a cell phone camera.

[disturbman]

Crazy looking. Will they also fit the loc inside these carriages?  Thanks for the pic. :)

[bikkuri bahn]

According to the Japanese wikipedia entry, the proposed train would consist of 20 transporter cars and a locomotive configured for push-pull operation.  For clarification, the Seikan tunnel will have dual gauge tracks, allowing through operation of 1067mm freight trains.  However, if the 30 freight trains/day (in ea. direction) operation currently is to be maintained when the shinkansen comes, this train on train piggyback operation needs to be instituted, as the current top speed of 110km/h for 1067mm freights will create bottlenecks at tunnel mouths that will negatively impact the shinkansen operating timetable (daiya) .  I suppose 1067mm freights will be restricted to running through the tunnel in the midnight hours, when shinkansen operation is suspended.

[disturbman]

Do you have an idea at how fast the Shinkansen will run in the tunnel? I know that the Eurostars run at 160kph in the Channel Tunnel. Far lower than the 300kph speed they can reach on the HSLs.

[Guest ___]

According to the Japanese wikipedia entry, the proposed train would consist of 20 transporter cars and a locomotive configured for push-pull operation.  For clarification, the Seikan tunnel will have dual gauge tracks, allowing through operation of 1067mm freight trains.  However, if the 30 freight trains/day (in ea. direction) operation currently is to be maintained when the shinkansen comes, this train on train piggyback operation needs to be instituted, as the current top speed of 110km/h for 1067mm freights will create bottlenecks at tunnel mouths that will negatively impact the shinkansen operating timetable (daiya) .  I suppose 1067mm freights will be restricted to running through the tunnel in the midnight hours, when shinkansen operation is suspended.

 

I had wondered how they would run shinkansen through the tunnel with mixed traffic. I had assumed they would construct a new bore as dedicated RoW for them.

[CaptOblivious]

According to the Japanese wikipedia entry, the proposed train would consist of 20 transporter cars and a locomotive configured for push-pull operation.  For clarification, the Seikan tunnel will have dual gauge tracks, allowing through operation of 1067mm freight trains.  However, if the 30 freight trains/day (in ea. direction) operation currently is to be maintained when the shinkansen comes, this train on train piggyback operation needs to be instituted, as the current top speed of 110km/h for 1067mm freights will create bottlenecks at tunnel mouths that will negatively impact the shinkansen operating timetable (daiya) .  I suppose 1067mm freights will be restricted to running through the tunnel in the midnight hours, when shinkansen operation is suspended.

 

I had wondered how they would run shinkansen through the tunnel with mixed traffic. I had assumed they would construct a new bore as dedicated RoW for them.

 

Nope, no new bore. They're simply going to run a gauntlet (as it were).

[Guest ___]

Ugh, I'd hate to be in operations managing that traffic.

[to2leo]

Maybe they will use ATC (Automatic Train Control)?

[Guest ___]

I'd hate to think how they'd run ATC with high speed shinaksnes, medium speed freights, and the lower speed local trains that go from Aomori to Hokadate

[bikkuri bahn]

Do you have an idea at how fast the Shinkansen will run in the tunnel? I know that the Eurostars run at 160kph in the Channel Tunnel. Far lower than the 300kph speed they can reach on the HSLs.

 

Good question.  The E5 series which will probably run on this section are capable of max. 320km/h operation, though whether it will run at this speed through tunnel is still uncertain.  The high speed freight trains that will utilize the carriers above will be capable of 200km/h operation.

 

As for questions of traffic control, I believe JR's current digital ATC control (or a variant) will be used.  It is capable (due to on train software) of adjusting for different train types (factoring tonnage, acceleration rates, braking distance, etc.), so there should be no problems.  And as I mentioned, the really slow(!) 110km/h freights will just have to be routed during the time window in the early morning hours when shinkansen trains aren't running.

[cteno4]

Ok wonder if microace is going to make this train and a narrow gauge container set to go in it! would be interesting.

 

they made the tunnel car train!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[disturbman]

Thanks Bikkuri.

 

Usually in such infrastructure the speed is set by the slowest trains. So, if the new HS Freight train is going to be mixed up with Shinkansens traffic then there is a good chance that the Shinkansens will run at 200kph (if it's the actual speed of the the future freight trains). Then you also have to consider the fact that the tunnel might not be abble to deal with VHS. It's after all an old infrastructure... I'm wondering what is the scale of the work being actually done.

 

On another note 30 feight trains each directions a day is not a lot, you can make them run before and after passenger traffic. As well as during the day, when there is less pax traffic. Of course that depends mostly on the requirement of JRF and her customers.

 

And I think that the pax traffic will not be as high at first. Tokyo and Sapporo will still be more than 7 hours appart by rail. That's not higly concurential to plane. But after, when the reign of E5 and E6 will begin and when the Hokkaido Shinkansen opens, that might be different.

[Guest ___]

I thought the tunnel currently serves local traffic. What is going to happen to the Class 485 NE Express trains that currently run through it?

[bikkuri bahn]

Thanks Bikkuri.

 

Usually in such infrastructure the speed is set by the slowest trains. So, if the new HS Freight train is going to be mixed up with Shinkansens traffic then there is a good chance that the Shinkansens will run at 200kph (if it's the actual speed of the the future freight trains). Then you also have to consider the fact that the tunnel might not be abble to deal with VHS. It's after all an old infrastructure... I'm wondering what is the scale of the work being actually done.

 

On another note 30 feight trains each directions a day is not a lot, you can make them run before and after passenger traffic. As well as during the day, when there is less pax traffic. Of course that depends mostly on the requirement of JRF and her customers.

 

And I think that the pax traffic will not be as high at first. Tokyo and Sapporo will still be more than 7 hours appart by rail. That's not higly concurential to plane. But after, when the reign of E5 and E6 will begin and when the Hokkaido Shinkansen opens, that might be different.

 

I don't know about the top speeds that will be permitted through the tunnel (which was built to Shinkansen standards from the beginning), though it must be said that on the Tokaido Shinkansen services are run at different speeds (Kodama/Hikari/Nozomi), though this is afforded by the utitilzation of loop tracks at stations, in addition to the digital ATC system.  Of course, as you mentioned, the level of services at least in the beginning will not be so intensive as the Tokaido Shinkansen or even Tohoku Shinkansen, so this adds leeway in terms of track/block occupancy.  Advertisements/banners here in Hokkaido state a 4 hour service between Tokyo and Sapporo, which would be highly competitive with planes.

[disturbman]

When I think that the SNCF is finding hard to have to dealt with a handfull of TGV sets that can't run higher than 270kph. They are consuming precious slots on the most heavily used French HSR. I know they are going to be happy when these retires. And now you tell me that Japanese runs service at different speed...

[bikkuri bahn]

I'm not terribly familiar with SNCF's TGV operation, but I get the impression (tell me if I am misinformed) that the operation (especially the Sud-Est, Thalys too?) is geared more for direct connection between major metropolitan areas rather than serving the intermediate towns or cities.  Thus the building of bypass routes and green field stations (when deemed necessary).  This enables quite high speed operation.

 

As for Tokaido Shinkansen, at the outset numerous intermediate stations serving smaller cities were built (certainly local politics was a factor).  Many of these stations have loop tracks (refuge sidings in a sense) and through tracks.  This allows the all-stop Kodama services as well as some of the slower Hikari services to "pull over", so to speak, and let the fast Nozomi services tear through at high speed.  In fact, I find riding the Kodama trains to be more interesting from the operational point of view, as you can see how the whole shinkansen operation works firsthand- while your train is stopped, one or even two faster trains pass by.  Great for railfans too- you can leave your train to take pictures, and then get back on and continue your journey.

[disturbman]

You got the correct impression. The SNCF and the French developped the TGV as "a plane on tracks". Linking major cities together at each end of the  line. The intermediate medium town still get service but it's a stub end service and there is not so many trains per day. But it's mainly because France is scarcely populated.

 

Some figures:

- Paris Region (11 million people)

- Greater Lyon (1,7 million people)

- Marseille (1,6 million people)

- Lille (1,1 million people)

- Bordeaux (a 1 million people)

- Nice (973 thousand people)

- Nantes (803 thousand people)

 

Reims (wich is the first city to be seved on the LGV Est): 291 thousand people...

 

In France the main relations are between Paris and major cities. TGVs that are servicing small to medium cities (in "green field station") usually stops everywhere. Servicing each intermediate towns or cities on the way doesn't make much sense economically speaking since the demand is not very high.

[cteno4]

forgive opening an old topic, but thought it best to keep the info w/in the topic.

 

an interesting article was posted on the jtrains list today.

 

http://www.hokkaido-np.co.jp/news/bullet_train/220737.html

 

shows a diagram of how this is to work. apparently the container train drives onto the transporter train and all the way through it. when the engines get to the other end they come out of the last car onto a transfer table and are uncoupled. then table slides over removing the narrow gauge engines from in front of the carrier cars and replacing it with a bit of track and the proper standard gauge engines in front of the carrier cars. then just couple up and take off. the just do the reverse at the other end! pretty slick for rapid turn around at each end.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Mudkip Orange]

I wonder:

 

okay, so they've got 20-car trainsets ready to go. That's cute. But why not just lash up a bunch of engines and run a 120-car freight drag through the tunnel? OK, it would be too slow for any following trainsets, but you'd only need to run it 2 or 3 times a day, so you could schedule the Shinkansen timetable around it.

 

I can't imagine the time delay would be worse than loading a bunch of individual cars onto individual car transporters, coupling them all together, then doing the reverse on the other side. That's kinda crazy.

[scott]

Advertisements/banners here in Hokkaido state a 4 hour service between Tokyo and Sapporo, which would be highly competitive with planes.

 

If you take the road/ferry distance (1,128km) as a convenient proxy, that's an average of 282km/h or 175mph!

[disturbman]

I wonder:

 

okay, so they've got 20-car trainsets ready to go. That's cute. But why not just lash up a bunch of engines and run a 120-car freight drag through the tunnel? OK, it would be too slow for any following trainsets, but you'd only need to run it 2 or 3 times a day, so you could schedule the Shinkansen timetable around it.

 

And where would you store such a long train? And I can't imagine the time it will need to be load and unload, such an op will take at least several hours.

[cteno4]

I kind of have to figure these guys have spent a lot of time and effort figuring out what will work best for this application. Sure there are a lot of variables at play here. seems like the RO-RO should be a very quick operation that the lets the train proceed on its way very quickly. the transfer table idea is quite cool, no switcher having to go in or backing in. then one transfer gets everything set to go.

 

it was commented that the transport cars would need to be really beefy to take the weight of the locos, but a fully loaded container car is going to be up to 50+ tonnes, near the weight of a loco. perhaps it will be a smaller, lighter switcher to pull the cars on/off.

 

really want a model of this one!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[bikkuri bahn]

perhaps it will be a smaller, lighter switcher to pull the cars on/off.

 

Yes, that will be the case.  Take a look:

 

source:http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%83%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%88%E3%83%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3

[westfalen]

I think the small diesel shunter will be the way they will go, no one here seems to have realised that if the road engines pull the train through the cars would have to be equipped with overhead wires which would make the cars too high.

 

If it were anywhere but Japan I'd say it wouldn't work, it's too complicated and there are to many ways to mess it up, but the Japanese with their traditions of getting things perfect could pull it off.

 

I think this is a good solution for the Japanese way of operating a railway. It might be considered acceptable in the US or Australia for freights to delay passenger trains or sit in yards all day having containers transhipped or being switched in and out of longer trains, but in Japan things are kept moving.

 

The only reservation I have about the Hokkaido Shinkansen extension is, as someone earlier in the thread suggested, is that the local services on the route, not just through the tunnel, may be rationalised into oblivion. When JR East extend the Shinkansen network they lose interest in local services or sell them off to third party operators.

[Mudkip Orange]

And where would you store such a long train? And I can't imagine the time it will need to be load and unload, such an op will take at least several hours.

 

You'd only run a consolidated train through the tunnel. At each end you'd split it back up into "normal" (for Japan) freights of 15-25 cars, and send it on its merry way. Sure, some parts of the train would have to sit around for awhile while the "normal" length freights were staged. But I can't imagine it would take more time then loading and unloading into a larger roll-on/roll-off car.