Shinkansen train signals

[Hayashi]

I'm trying to identify what type of train signalling I need for my planned shinkansen line. I've watched as many in-cab videos as I can find, but can't see much regarding the signals. I've also read Ken's Sumida Crossing (which helps a lot with all types of signals), but left me a little confused on shinkansen signalling. It seems there aren't many signals for shinkansen due to ATC, but I think I should still have some at least in the station. My real frustration is that I rode Japanese trains a lot in the 1990s, but didn't take photos of the signalling (didn't plan on having a Japanese model railroad at the time).

 

My shinkansen line is fairly simple. I'll have a dogbone-style loop with a station and each line will have a passing siding at the station. The only addition is a turnout at one of the sidings to feed into a railyard. 

[Gryphr]

From what I have read, shinkansen pretty much run only on ATC except for some shunting signals around stations/yards and normal signalling on the Mini-Shinkansen lines

[katoftw]

That crossover is in a horrible position.

[bill937ca]

Shinkansens run so fast a train engineer could not see a lineside signal.

 

[EdF]

42 minutes ago, katoftw said:

That crossover is in a horrible position.

Where would you put it?

[Hayashi]

Gryphr and bill937ca,

 

That's what I'm understanding regarding lineside signals and ATC too. Are they using shunting signals only on the platform sidings or should I have them on the center tracks too? I will be boarding on all four tracks.

 

katoftw, 

 

I originally had the double crossover in a different spot (between the bridges which I really didn't like), but one of the experts on this forum placed theirs at the station and didn't have any interference with the platforms. I'm only using it for slow operation when I bring a train up from the yard and need to switch tracks. Plus, having the crossover and the rerailers between the platforms and on a station viaduct should do a good job of hiding the rerailers.

[bill937ca]

Shinkansen cab ride:

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HelCUrUnru8

 

Japanology Plus Shinkansen  Cab ride starts about 10:00

 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by bill937ca

[Lina_Blue]

Also have a look in this video. A lenghty part of it is a cab ride and entrance to the maintenance yard:

 

 

 

 

[kvp]

10 hours ago, Hayashi said:

Gryphr and bill937ca,

That's what I'm understanding regarding lineside signals and ATC too. Are they using shunting signals only on the platform sidings or should I have them on the center tracks too? I will be boarding on all four tracks.

katoftw, 

I originally had the double crossover in a different spot (between the bridges which I really didn't like), but one of the experts on this forum placed theirs at the station and didn't have any interference with the platforms. I'm only using it for slow operation when I bring a train up from the yard and need to switch tracks. Plus, having the crossover and the rerailers between the platforms and on a station viaduct should do a good job of hiding the rerailers.

The normal shinkansen lines run on cab signalling. This means no platform signals at all. Shunting signals are only used in yards, where the ATC system is not deployed, which on the videos above is only in and around the maintenance buildings.

 

The crossover could be placed there, but it will essentially block two tracks when in use. A normal approach would be to put it near the end of the platforms. An even better solution is to use only a single crossover set against the standard running direction, so during normal high speed operation, the trains will pass it from a trailing direction. This would allow you to run through your station on the straight through tracks without slowing down to shunting speed (or using the rerailers too often in case someone still uses full throttle).

 

Two possible layouts for a bit more prototypical look:

Edited November 12, 2018 by kvp

[Hayashi]

I saw the first video, but not the other two. Thanks.

 

kvp, Thanks for the tips. I had intended to use single crossovers in your suggested method in a much earlier plan version, but was cautioned that the trains may hit the platform. I will be using the short platform on the ends (23-105), but in your experience will they still hit? I'm assuming the double crossovers don't have this problem because of their more gradual radius.

[kvp]

58 minutes ago, Hayashi said:

I saw the first video, but not the other two. Thanks.

 

kvp, Thanks for the tips. I had intended to use single crossovers in your suggested method in a much earlier plan version, but was cautioned that the trains may hit the platform. I will be using the short platform on the ends (23-105), but in your experience will they still hit? I'm assuming the double crossovers don't have this problem because of their more gradual radius.

Actually there are some cars that do hit the platforms, mainly the Tomix vacuum car and anything sharing the same loading gauge, for example the E1 shinkansen and many american double decker cars. The single crossovers have the same angle as two #4 turnouts, while the double crossover is more around the #6 turnouts (and they actually share parts), so yes, the doule crossover is more platform friendly. But running through it in the straight direction is less high speed friendly, so sadly here you have to make a compromise. This is why i've drawn both variants.

 

Both turnouts allow you to park a train on the unused platform side of the crossover. For example if you are moving a train from the yard to the lower middle track using the double crossover, it's possible to cut power to both upper station tracks by adding isolators somewhere along the line (like between the bridges) and adding a Kato on-off switch between the left side feeder and the right side feeder. Turning it to off and selecting the yard will cut power to the upper two track part of the station, while keeping it off and selecting the middle track and the crossover to cross over will cut power to the yard and the two upper tracks, while allowing the train on the main to pass through the crossover to the other loop. This means up to 4 trains could be in the station and still have the possiblilty to shunt between the lower (inner) loop and the yard. Placing the crossover in the middle cuts this to half as both through tracks have to be used for shunting. Adding a similar on-off switch for the lower (inner) loop too also allows you to move a train from the upper (outer) loop's through track to the lower (inner) loop's outer track by using the main as a lead while keeping a train stopped on the lower (inner) loop's through track. This doubles the number of possible train movements and allows you to move a train to and from the yard and the lower (inner) tracks more easily.

[Hayashi]

Thanks kvp. I do prefer the single crossover concept based on your tips above and, of course, better high speed running. I think I'll take Jeff's suggestion from a different post and trim the platform back further too. I'll start with the 23-105 but shave off some length too.

[cteno4]

We have had pretty much no issue with the double crossover going straight on the shinkansen line at all speeds. But we put it in the middle of a long straight run to be safe and inside the  rerailers we have at either ends of the station. We looked at doing what Kvp propses in doing a little block control to make for easier shunting of trains off the inside track and passing track but was not easy with how the club layout sections up and would require separate wiring connectors for the block control to 3 modules. Maybe sometime in the future, but with how we run at shows when we go to change the trains on the inside we usually just change out all the trains to mix things up, so it’s good practice for us to not run some trains too long.

 

jeff

[kvp]

6 minutes ago, Hayashi said:

Thanks kvp. I do prefer the single crossover concept based on your tips above and, of course, better high speed running. I think I'll take Jeff's suggestion from a different post and trim the platform back further too. I'll start with the 23-105 but shave off some length too.

Just check if your rolling stock will actually clear the platform. Only one end could be affected as the other end of the single crossover is actually beyond the platform end. On the other hand if Jeff says that the double crossover is reliable then i say it should be ok and the more gentle curve will get rid of any platform modding. Personally i did have some derailments on my double crossover when ran through too fast, but that was probably because it's always located next to a ttrak curve module. (due to lack of space) So if you have a double crossover, just test it if it's reliable or not before buying a single crossover. The double crossover does support one more possible shunting move than a single one.

 

1 minute ago, cteno4 said:

We have had pretty much no issue with the double crossover going straight on the shinkansen line at all speeds. But we put it in the middle of a long straight run to be safe and inside the  rerailers we have at either ends of the station. We looked at doing what Kvp propses in doing a little block control to make for easier shunting of trains off the inside track and passing track but was not easy with how the club layout sections up and would require separate wiring connectors for the block control to 3 modules. Maybe sometime in the future, but with how we run at shows when we go to change the trains on the inside we usually just change out all the trains to mix things up, so it’s good practice for us to not run some trains too long.

Imho a good practice would be to only change at a yard and bring out each train while the rest if running, rotating them in and out of service, just like on the prototype. For simple block control, you can put the isolator just next to the station's opposite entry point from the yard turnout and take the power from the mainline side of the isolators, so the station will be self contained. This would make the two loops two single blocks and the station tracks another two. It would make the shinkansen operations much more complex.

[Hayashi]

Well, after this discussion I may well go back to the double crossing in the center. I feel like a teenager trying to pick out which outfit to wear at the prom. 🙂

[cteno4]

The platform end issue only shows up randomly and it looks like there is clearance when you run trains thru slow. It happens at speed and appears to be wobble in cars causing them to tilt in more that normal and then with the bump on the platform cause it to bounce back and throw a wheel. Many times the wheel throw would be corrected right away by the rerailers just down track so they were not spotted as derailments unless you were watching very carefully. It took a lot of careful watching to find it and the slight reduction took out 90+% of these random wheel pops at this area. It’s been good for the last 10 years doing this. I even verified the strikes once I thought I had seen this enough with a little blue line marking chalk dust along the edge of the platform and it make nice skuff marks on the sides of of some of the cars. Went away with the tiny platform shortening.

 

the double crossovers we have had the most issue with were around curved areas on our ground tracks. Rapids couplers seem to be a bit of the culprit in both derailments and uncoupling when there were issues. May be due to all the flangeway bumps and wiggles and rapidos can do a little slinky all of which could cause an issue together now and then. Again they behave best on straightaways. On the crossover position it’s not perfect, but pretty good. Some shinkansens in some situations seem to be more prone than others having a derail, I’m guessing from power car location, coupler/diaphragm configuration, but it’s been pretty good over all. Overall our double crossovers have held up well over the years and getting abuse on the club layout. I don’t think any have died electrically or lost power routing (usually one #4 or #6 a year would loose power routing and need to be torn apart).

 

we kind of have a rhythm of how the layout is run with so many shows, it’s due to a wide variety of people and other distractions etc. we have not been a big operations group and heavy operations usually is a crowd looser, so we try to keep them brief for the more frequent ones of just switching between passing and straight thru trains and then once and a while take new trains onto the outer tracks. Just a few times a day we do the bigger move trains around to the inner tracks and do that when fewer people are around. Since we don’t wire in our points you ether need clear access to the areas (we can have multiple members doing stuff around the layout at times or talking to visitors) or someone working with your to throw points but you need to be able to hear and have clear language of what to do. Yes we could have a manual of prescribed signals to follow but that would be a lot of effort and little results, that sort of stuff would most likely be a club killer for us. Home layout or even clubhouse environment is very different than shows.

 

go dance!

 

cheers

 

heff

[Hayashi]

I don't foresee doing a lot of yard switching for the shinkansen, so I think I'll go back to the center double crossing with rerailers on each side. The yard is mostly just to store whichever commuters/expresses and shinkansens I'm not running, as well as a spot for MOW vehicles. My two freight yards are where I plan to do my shunting.

 

Current freight plan may look a little wonky due to passing under viaducts. I'm using sectional for everything, but since I'm currently using the free trial version of SCARM I've had to replace some of the sectionals with flex so I don't run out of my 100 track limit. I'll use MT couplers on everything, as well as using magnetic uncouplers. Left rerailer is to take car of any errant tunnel mishaps. Right partial crossing matches up with a commuter line crossing.

 

My goal was to have two factory or transloading yards while still providing a way to have a freight loop on its own, and still have the opportunity to join up to the commuter line for a longer trip (the green #6 turnout at the top-left).My shortest yard spur is 746mm. The bypasses are shorter which isn't ideal, but that's life.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr Hayashi,

 

Because of the speed, shinkansen signals appear in the driver's cab.  There are no track-side signals required.  See Here

 

From time to time, you may see track-side signals duplicating the ATC system for the benefit of maintenance vehicles, etc.

[Hayashi]

Thank you Ochanomizu

[sid21177]

double cross-over in the middle also means the trains are switching platforms midway.

better to have a straight run through with the crossing at the end ??