Non Japanese locomotives and trains in Japan and vice versa.

[chadbag]

One thing I have been wondering about, is why there are not any (or more) non-Japanese trains and locomotives used in Japan.  Why doesn't Siemens try and market the Taurus freight versions in Japan, or Bombardier market the freight versions of TRAXX in Japan?

 

And, with the exception of Hitachi with their European HST stuff, and a few EMU/DMUs around the world (including the US) from various manufacturers, why don't we see more Japanese manufacturers pushing their wares outside of Japan?   Mitsubishi did get the Spanish class 251 several decades ago (the one derived from or looking like EF66), but nothing more recent.

 

[bill937ca]

I believe they companies have tried but the railway division of Japan Inc. has kept them out.  Japan Inc. is a combination of business and regulators working together that Japan is known for. There is resistance to non Japanese trains to issues like earthquake resistance.  Remember during a major storm police will investigate any incidents a like derailments as Professional Negligence, a very commonly laid criminal charge.  Injury or death only has to occur to start a probe. The legal expectation seems to be no injury or death under any circumstance.  This also why long JR lines shutdown during major storms when they may be exposed to different conditions than the shorter private railway lines feeding into JR connections.  A good part of this is just very different expectations in the Japanese business culture. You don't break off relations lightly with another company.  This created major issues for Kodak and General Motors in the past. It is a culture that does not welcome new suppliers. In many ways the business culture of Japan very different to western business culture.

 

In the past the Japanese train builders were the only source for low quantity orders like work cars or non-standard cars. Now there are builders like Arva.  

 

https://arvaindustries.com/product_categories/rail/

 

Also look at the track record of some of suppliers like Bombardier and Siemens. Remember the Siemens Combino?  Bombardier is now on track to deliver all 204 low floor trams to Toronto by the end of 2019 as it has two production lines going and they need to deliver fewer cars in 2019 than they already have this year.

 

Some designs are built under license like some of the articulated trams in Hiroshima.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by bill937ca

[EF57]

you don‘t see many mercedes — or even VW‘s — in japan either.  their own stuff is plenty good enough and cheaper.  no märklin in my house either ...

[Suica]

The only more recent instances I can think of, where foreign-made rolling stock made it to Japan are maintenance vehicles made by GEMCO, Plasser & Theurer, SPENO and Mercedes and used trams from Germany.

 

@EF57

Eh... not sure if that's a good example. For being that far away from their home market I see quite a lot of Mercedes and VWs in Japanese cities. They're probably the most commonly seen foreign car brands. European cars are luxury items in Japan and there are more than enough people who will buy them for that fact.

Japanese railways do not have a need for luxury items as they want to make money. I don't think that any foreign company could offer locos at a competitive price.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Suica

[bill937ca]

One thing that is foreign in Japan is many of the ladder trucks used by the Tokyo Fire Department.  Iveco chassis (italian) with Magirus ladders (German).  

 

 

[chadbag]

31 minutes ago, EF57 said:

you don‘t see many mercedes — or even VW‘s — in japan either.  their own stuff is plenty good enough and cheaper.  no märklin in my house either ...

 

Uh, I see plenty of Mercs, VWs, Audis, and BMWs in Japan.  Every day I am there I see a couple of those.

 

I also see Mercedes (and other Euro brands) trucks (Euro/Japan style big rigs) on the road there.  Not as many as Japanese brands, but I see them.

[chadbag]

Hitachi is having some success bringing Japanese trains to Europe (albeit with local manufacturing in Europe).   Siemens or Bombardier could partner with Japanese manufacturers and build locally.   Just thinking out loud.

 

I think the famous Japanese bureaucratic firewalls and general corporate cronyism is most likely the largest factor. 

[katoftw]

Is there really a need for European or Canadian brands to get a footprint in Japan?  I don't think so.  Just because the could, doesn't mean the should.

 

But as you have highlighted,  Japan is trying to export their product.  So doubtful they allow an outsider in with new products.  But also the strong nationalism from Japanese people and businesses probably makes it a difficult task for and outside company to attempt to get a footprint near impossible.

Edited November 7, 2018 by katoftw

[Suica]

2 hours ago, bill937ca said:

Also look at the track record of some of suppliers like Bombardier and Siemens. Remember the Siemens Combino?  Bombardier is now on track to deliver all 204 low floor trams to Toronto by the end of 2019 as it has two production lines going and they need to deliver fewer cars in 2019 than they already have this year.

 

Some designs are built under license like some of the articulated trams in Hiroshima.

 

The Hiroden Type 5000 was actually built by Siemens in Germany and it's Hiroden's biggest problem child. Along with the issues that plague the Combino series in the first place, there were issues that appeared due to the different climate. Of course spare parts are not available in Japan and expensive to import, which is why Hiroshima didn't extend its order as initially planned.

AdTranz (now Bombardier) actually partnered up with Niigata Transys to produce trams locally, with bigger success.

But all this was simply because Japan did at that point have no experience with low-floor trams. Same reason they buy foreign rail maintenance vehicles.

For regular locos, EMUs and DMUs there isn't really anything they'd miss and thus need from western manufacturers. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Suica

[bikkuri bahn]

As some have said, there are plenty of foreign cars on the road in Japan, mainly the German brands (VW is the most popular foreign car make here), but also some French and Italian (Alfa Romeo is quite popular). American makers are weak here, because their production is huge SUV's and pickup trucks, not really suited to Japanese roads and lifestyles, duh!!  Heavy trucks, Volvo has a foothold.  And Mitsubishi Fuso is owned by Daimler...

JR East a few years back made a push to attract bids from foreign makers for a DMU order- seems they got no interest.  Locomotives, well, as most of you know, it's not much of a market for them here in Japan- almost all passenger trains are multiple units, and the freight sector is very small.  Japanese makers have good designs, and they speak the language, duh!

[bill937ca]

3 hours ago, chadbag said:

Hitachi is having some success bringing Japanese trains to Europe (albeit with local manufacturing in Europe).   Siemens or Bombardier could partner with Japanese manufacturers and build locally.   Just thinking out loud.

 

But why should Japanese builders partner with outsiders and give up their market share?

[bill937ca]

The best chance in Japan for an outside company is something completely new that the Japanese don't already have.

[chadbag]

6 minutes ago, bill937ca said:

 

But why should Japanese builders partner with outsiders and give up their market share?

 

Maybe a manufacturer who doesn't normally do locomotives (rather DMU or rail cars or something similar) who wants to get into the market?

 

-----

 

How much more efficient would a Taurus/Vectron or TRAXX need to be over an EF210/510 or whatever to be economically worthwhile?  (Efficiency from aerodynamics, or more efficient motors, or whatever -- just hypothetically speaking --- I am not saying they are more efficient as I don't know their per km cost to operate, or electric use per km/ton of usage, etc)?   

 

This is all just a thought process on hypotheticals.   We see competition everywhere else, and some of the European loco manufacturers are already selling into other parts of Asia and also have narrow gauge capability.   And some limited Japanese intrusion into the European market with Hitachi HST.  Hence the question.

Edited November 8, 2018 by chadbag

[kvp]

5 hours ago, chadbag said:

Maybe a manufacturer who doesn't normally do locomotives (rather DMU or rail cars or something similar) who wants to get into the market?

 

How much more efficient would a Taurus/Vectron or TRAXX need to be over an EF210/510 or whatever to be economically worthwhile?  (Efficiency from aerodynamics, or more efficient motors, or whatever -- just hypothetically speaking --- I am not saying they are more efficient as I don't know their per km cost to operate, or electric use per km/ton of usage, etc)?   

 

This is all just a thought process on hypotheticals.   We see competition everywhere else, and some of the European loco manufacturers are already selling into other parts of Asia and also have narrow gauge capability.   And some limited Japanese intrusion into the European market with Hitachi HST.  Hence the question.

There are not a lot of larger european or us manufacturers left.

 

For emus, we have Stadler, who bought up half of the european smaller manufacturers, but they specialize in low floor units. These have zero usability with high platform japanese stations. They are the only current large EU manufacturer with narrow gauge experience.

 

Then we have siemens who makes a few products based on a few base platforms. A taurus or hercules locomotive couldn't really fit into the japanese loading gauge and the taurus is mostly an AC only locomotive. Siemens also have a push-pull train carriage line (single and double decker), also not a common thing in Japan.

 

Then there is Bombardier, with their not so good emus and really meh locomotives.

 

Don't forget the french Alstom, with their TGVs and metros. The metros are not really reliable, but they have nice high speed trains. A bit out of gauge even for France, it would be hard to fit them into japanese tunnels, at least without sonic booms.

 

There is a smaller Spanish manufacturer, CAF, who is makes nice stuff, but they already use japanese components, like traction systems.

 

And the US is buying japanese, german and korean trains as there is a lack of manufacturers.

 

Imho Japan still buys or licenses technology from abroad. For example this is how the singing Siemens traction inverters ended up in Japan. Or the schlieren bogies and german-french-swiss arbaitegemeinschaft traction system under the 0 series (Hungary also bought the exact license for the v43 a few years earlier) A more recent example are the Niigata low floor trams mentioned above. But recently it's japanese companies who are licensing and selling technology to other manufacturers or just buying them up, like in the UK, Italy, etc...

 

As far as i see there is nothing in the world right now that is better than what japanese companies could make. This is shown by the number of exports they are doing. The only area they are lacking experience right now is low floor trains. Something that Japan with its high platforms doesn't have any use for.

[ConnieCommie]

A coal company uses a GE U10B in Japan, called the DE601 class. In addition, the prototype DD90 for the JNR was basically a 70 Tonner. Plymouth engines made it into japan and were cloned by local companies.

 

The RENFE 269 and 279 are both based on contemporary Mitsui designs for Japanese locomotives, however with Bo-Bo wheelsets as opposed to Bo-Bo-Bo. A DD51 made it into contractor service in Malaysia, the China Railways 6K bears similarities under the carbody to the EF66 and the TRA DHL200 is similar to the DD13. The EF65 has a diesel variant, the BFA-32M in service in Bolivia.

 

(I'm only counting adapted Japanese designs, not full-on, ground-up export vehicles.)

 

Also FWIW Bomb has bungled up delivery of NYC's R179 subway cars Big Time.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by ConnieCommie