Kato sound box Vs DCC

[Kiran]

Apologies if there is a better subforum for this thread.

 

I would like to have sound for my trains. I have 2 Tomix Shinkansens (500 and 700), Kato C62, Kato Amtrak, older Tomix and Kato trains. Going forward, I am making a conscious effort to buy Kato or DCC ready/friendly trains. While J trains are my primary interest, I would like to buy trains that I have travelled on. This includes quite a few European trains as I lived in the UK for 7 years and travelled across Europe quite a bit.

 

I looked at the Kato sound box but I don't know I feel about the sound coming from just one location when the train is going around in the layout. It isn't cheap either. Also I don't know if they make sound cards for Shinkansens and if those sound cards would even work with my 2 Tomix Shinkansens.

 

I have also been thinking about DCC. I like the idea of being able to run 2 or 3 trains on a track. I read up on it and watched a couple of videos but have a lot more questions on it.

 

If I want to control 2 trains individually (not a consist) on the same track, would I need 2 DCC controllers?

Are there Shinkansens and J trains that are DCC friendly with sound?

How complicated are the DCC interfaces? If I have to look at the display for even basic functions, I would be struggling as I am blind and can't read the LCD screens.

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

[IST]

Just my 2 cents:

- I have recently bought a SoundBox from Kato as I do not plan to change from analog to DCC in the near future. You are right, the sound is coming from one location and not directly from the train, but it does not bother me, especially at home where I can build a small layout on the floor.

- You can use any sound card with any train, so you can here steam engine while you are playing with a Shinkansen, there is no direct connection between the trains itself and the sound. As far as I know there is no Shinkansen sound card right now.

- If you want to control 2 trains individually, you do not need 2 controllers in DCC, you can control all of your train with one, the question will be how easily can you change between the trains on the controller.

- There are lot of different DCC interfaces, I think you should try some in a hobby store, I am pretty sure you can find one which will be easy to handle to you.

[nah00]

On 10/21/2018 at 10:32 AM, Kiran said:

I have also been thinking about DCC. I like the idea of being able to run 2 or 3 trains on a track. I read up on it and watched a couple of videos but have a lot more questions on it.

 

If I want to control 2 trains individually (not a consist) on the same track, would I need 2 DCC controllers?

 Are there Shinkansens and J trains that are DCC friendly with sound?

How complicated are the DCC interfaces? If I have to look at the display for even basic functions, I would be struggling as I am blind and can't read the LCD screens.

 

For a good overview of DCC I recommend a visit to the Digitrax website. With regards to throttles the nice thing is that you can get a WiFi interface with their system and use your phone or tablet to run trains using WiThrottle. The wireless interface is $80 and the full version of WiThrottle is $10 versus $189 for a wireless throttle. WiThrottle can also be set up to have 2 throttles on it so you can control 2 trains from one screen and it is easier to use than a Digitrax throttle but with less functionality. I personally don't like the Digitrax throttle interface (it's like using a graphing calculator) but they have a one year no-questions-asked warranty on their decoders which is nice since I've had 2 replaced this year. 

 

Some Kato Shinkansen and other trains are DCC friendly but aren't sound equipped. Kato DD51s are just a board replacement but you would be hard pressed to find room for a speaker without modifying the frame. One thing to keep in mind though is that a Shinkansen will need 3 decoders - one for the motor car and one for each end car to control the lighting (they are different types of decoders).  There is room in a Shinkansen for a sound decoder but you would to likely import your own sound files. 

[kvp]

Two things come to my mind about DCC:

 

You have to see the trains to know where to stop with DCC and manual control. Analog operation allows pretty simple stop points with minimal setup.

 

As many japanese trains are not plug and play DCC ready, they have to be modded to add decoders into them and that requires a pretty good eyesight. Even DCC ready trains are fussy to install the decoders correctly.

 

So i would not really recommend DCC without someone's help.

 

ps: Some older DCC systems are screenless. For example the older Digitrax throttles have rotary knobs for address selection and once set up, could be used without looking. But the setup does need visual feedback.

 

 

[Kiran]

On 10/26/2018 at 12:18 PM, kvp said:

Two things come to my mind about DCC:

 

You have to see the trains to know where to stop with DCC and manual control. Analog operation allows pretty simple stop points with minimal setup.

Not being able to see where the trains are on the layout is a bit of a problem even on analog layout. I rely on the sound from the motors but gets tricky when I have 3 or 4 trains running. This is why I was thinking of trains with DCC sound. Too bad Shinkansens and J trains don't seem to have much of this.

 

How do you set stop points on analogue? I am guessing sectioning the layout using insulating joiners and turning on/off power to those sections? Is there a better way? I was also thinking of track-side IR sensors that I can hook up to something that dings when the train gets to the sensor. I can then stop the train when I hear the ding.

On 10/26/2018 at 12:18 PM, kvp said:

As many japanese trains are not plug and play DCC ready, they have to be modded to add decoders into them and that requires a pretty good eyesight. Even DCC ready trains are fussy to install the decoders correctly.

Understood. I think I can find help to install decoders.

On 10/26/2018 at 12:18 PM, kvp said:

So i would not really recommend DCC without someone's help.

 

ps: Some older DCC systems are screenless. For example the older Digitrax throttles have rotary knobs for address selection and once set up, could be used without looking. But the setup does need visual feedback.

 

I much prefer a keypad interface. I can also get sighted help to setup the system. As long as I am able to run the trains, select a locomotive easily and easily access the sound and other functions, I should be OK.

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Kiran said:

How do you set stop points on analogue? I am guessing sectioning the layout using insulating joiners and turning on/off power to those sections? Is there a better way? I was also thinking of track-side IR sensors that I can hook up to something that dings when the train gets to the sensor. I can then stop the train when I hear the ding.

 

There are two common ways to have stop points. One is the unpowered section you mention, but this is problematic when the motor unit is not in the first car, like in most multiple units.

 

The other option is to use point sensors to detect the 1st car and turn off power for the whole train. Tomix has wheel sensors for this and either using the NOS automation unit or building your own, allows pretty accurate stopping of the trains.

 

It's possible to add varoius sound effects to each sensor. Tomix uses them for the platform sounds and some sound equipped driving cabs could add tunnel and bridge sounds. Or you can use an Arduino and have varoius ATC sounds play according to location. (ATC warning before station approach, ATC tick on the slow speed section and ATC stop where you have to stop) This would allow you to be able to drive your trains with accurate station stops.

 

One more thing for storage yards and stub tracks: Tomix has a spring loaded buffer stop that cuts the power when a train bumps into it but enables departure in the other direction. It can be used to automatically align the trains with the buffers. You use it by taking the track power from the track after the turnout ladder with a feeder, adding an isolating section and feeding the power into the buffer with another feeder. The two female feeders could be connected by an Y cable or a double male plug (a two pin double sided pcb board to board connector)

 

 

[Kiran]

3 hours ago, kvp said:

 

There are two common ways to have stop points. One is the unpowered section you mention, but this is problematic when the motor unit is not in the first car, like in most multiple units.

True this. Especially with those 8 car Shinkansens. I was thinking of having a bit of an offset. But sensor based solution sounds better.

3 hours ago, kvp said:

The other option is to use point sensors to detect the 1st car and turn off power for the whole train. Tomix has wheel sensors for this and either using the NOS automation unit or building your own, allows pretty accurate stopping of the trains.

I did come across the Tomix sensor track on Hobby search but was under the impression it was just for road crossing. I also found this TCS automation set 5563 which appears to have a few modes. https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10040736

 

Would that be a good starting point? I am guessing I will also need the actual sensor track 5559 https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066031

 

I also notice that there is 5558 which appears to be sensor that can go into any fine track piece and make it a sensor track. But I might be wrong https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10028732.

 

What is NOS automation?

3 hours ago, kvp said:

 

It's possible to add varoius sound effects to each sensor. Tomix uses them for the platform sounds and some sound equipped driving cabs could add tunnel and bridge sounds.

 

So something like this? 5721 https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10442453. I think that could work. So I can just add different sounds for different sensors.

 

Or you can use an Arduino and have varoius ATC sounds play according to location. (ATC warning before station approach, ATC tick on the slow speed section and ATC stop where you have to stop) This would allow you to be able to drive your trains with accurate station stops.

Arduino sounds great. I have been meaning to research Arduino for a while. Also have colleagues who do a lot of cool stuff with it. But if a simple solution the TCS one above works, I might try that first.

3 hours ago, kvp said:

 

 

[bill937ca]

14 minutes ago, Kiran said:

 

I also notice that there is 5558 which appears to be sensor that can go into any fine track piece and make it a sensor track. But I might be wrong https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10028732.

 

This will work with any track with a side feeder. It doesn't work with track that uses under track feeders.

[kvp]

50 minutes ago, Kiran said:

What is NOS automation?

The new automation system from Tomix. It allows multiple trains to run automatically, with one optional manually controlled train.

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10500464

 

 

[Kiran]

28 minutes ago, kvp said:

The new automation system from Tomix. It allows multiple trains to run automatically, with one optional manually controlled train.

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10500464

 

 

Oh dear! completely missed that one. A ton of questions come to mind. I haven't settled on a single layout yet and so I keep changing stuff around. Current layout is a double track loop with viaduct double track anda bridge in the middle of one of the straight sections. The other straight section is ground level with 2 single tracks connecting to viaduct double track at the start of the loops and that is where the incline also starts. There is also a single track oval at ground level all around the main double track oval. There is another single track that connects the inner loop of the double track oval with the outer single track oval. This connecter track comes off of a 541 PL from the inner track of the double track oval, loops around inside the double track oval, curves under the bridge and connects to the single track oval with a 541 PR. The idea is that trains can go from the inner track of the double track, oval to the outer single oval and back. Sorry for the rambling explanation. I am just experimenting.

 

One of the things that strikes with TNOS and the older TCS set is you are pretty much restricted to the layouts that they design for you. The layout I have above may probably fit into one of their predetermined combinations or probably not. Right now, if I have a train in the single track oval and I want to switch it to a different one, I have to do some pretty complicated juggling. I can't just have the train wait before the PR for a different train to pass through the turnout. for all intense purposes, I guess this setup is basically 4-5 sections and 2 turnouts. Maybe the TNOS system can handle it.

[kvp]

3 minutes ago, Kiran said:

One of the things that strikes with TNOS and the older TCS set is you are pretty much restricted to the layouts that they design for you. The layout I have above may probably fit into one of their predetermined combinations or probably not. Right now, if I have a train in the single track oval and I want to switch it to a different one, I have to do some pretty complicated juggling. I can't just have the train wait before the PR for a different train to pass through the turnout. for all intense purposes, I guess this setup is basically 4-5 sections and 2 turnouts. Maybe the TNOS system can handle it.

Actually i'm not sure your arrangement could be covered with one of the preset layout plans. The old automatic unit can only handle one moving train at a time, but could have up to 3 on a controller. The new TNOS can handle more trains but is usually geared towards loop or point to point operation between stations. Someone might be able to find a pattern that works for you with a bit of a tweaking. Your description sounds like either 4 turnouts are involved or the single track oval is just a part oval with the two turnouts connecting it to the main double track, essentially making it a very long siding. The latter case can in theory be handled by both automation units.

 

The Ardunio on the other hand allows pretty much anything, but requires more thinking and a bit of an assembly work to get every off the shelf component connected up. After that it's just software. In theory you could get around 20-24 sensors or turnouts and 10-12 blocks into one Arduino Mega 2560, but i never tried more than 5 each.

[Kiran]

 

 

3 hours ago, kvp said:

Actually i'm not sure your arrangement could be covered with one of the preset layout plans. The old automatic unit can only handle one moving train at a time, but could have up to 3 on a controller. The new TNOS can handle more trains but is usually geared towards loop or point to point operation between stations. Someone might be able to find a pattern that works for you with a bit of a tweaking. Your description sounds like either 4 turnouts are involved or the single track oval is just a part oval with the two turnouts connecting it to the main double track, essentially making it a very long siding. The latter case can in theory be handled by both automation units.

Hard to describe. There are 2 turnouts only. It is essentially 2 separate loops connected by a long piece of track. I will get someone to draw it out tomorrow.

3 hours ago, kvp said:

The Ardunio on the other hand allows pretty much anything, but requires more thinking and a bit of an assembly work to get every off the shelf component connected up. After that it's just software. In theory you could get around 20-24 sensors or turnouts and 10-12 blocks into one Arduino Mega 2560, but i never tried more than 5 each.

What about something like this? http://www.azatrax.com/arduino-shield-ir-detector.html

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Kiran said:

What about something like this? http://www.azatrax.com/arduino-shield-ir-detector.html

4 IR detectors on one card and the 8 possible addresses allows 32 detectors.

 

I don't really see the point as the Tomix detector tracks are easier to set up and work reliably without much optical alignement. (especially the track piece types, the plug in type could get out of alignemnent if the tracks are not fixed down)

 

I do see the need for a breakout board though that could convert a Tomix TCS sensor plug into an Arduino connection. (the two side wires are the inputs, the middle is the common ground)

[Kiran]

Thanks everyone for the input. After thinking this over for a bit, here are my thoughts.

 

The biggest issue right now for me is to figure out where the train is on the layout so I can switch points. A couple of colleagues have said they will help with putting an Arduino solution together. But that is going to take time. So here is what I am thinking.

 

I will get a few Tomix 5558 plug in sensors. I will use them with the Tomix sound box 5722 to play a sound when the train reaches a sensor. I know they say these are typically for platform sounds but I don't see why I just can't put the sensors on anywhere on the layout. It also sounds like you can make your own custom sounds. Not sure if they can be recorded and played again. This can potentially be a good solution in the interim as I don't have fixed layout yet.

 

What do you think? Those sound boxes aren't cheap though. So it sounds like a pretty expensive solution for sound but if it works, I am OK with it. It looks like there are 2 sound boxes 5721 and 5722. Not really sure what the difference is. It also sounds like the box can only take 4 sensor inputs.

 

I think I will skip TNOS for now. I want to investigate DCC a bit more and so I won't rush into either at this stage.

[Kiran]

Sorry for being a pest and bumping this thread up. Any opinions on using 5558 sensors and 5722 sound box to figure out where the trains are? See my previous reply above. I have to tell my colleague in Japan soon if I want him to bring over 5722. And what is the difference between 5721 and 5722?

 

Thanks ever so much.

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Kiran said:

Sorry for being a pest and bumping this thread up. Any opinions on using 5558 sensors and 5722 sound box to figure out where the trains are? See my previous reply above. I have to tell my colleague in Japan soon if I want him to bring over 5722. And what is the difference between 5721 and 5722?

 

Thanks ever so much.

These are platform sound boxes, the sound you get will not be 100% accurate timing wise but it could work as long as two sensors are not triggered too fast, so the voice could stop before the new one needs to start.

 

The sensor tracks are a bit more reliable than the plugs that could get out of alignement on a non permanent layout.

 

The newer sound box has the real voices from the prototype, while the older one has different people. For someone who is used to the prototype the difference is instantly recognizable.

 

ps: If you could get soldering help and an Arduino with a breakout shield then adding a passive piezo beeper to two digital output pins and the sensor tracks as two pull up digital inputs would be imho more effective. Just connect the sensors as pushbuttons and play a different short beep on every input.

[Kiran]

8 hours ago, kvp said:

ps: If you could get soldering help and an Arduino with a breakout shield then adding a passive piezo beeper to two digital output pins and the sensor tracks as two pull up digital inputs would be imho more effective. Just connect the sensors as pushbuttons and play a different short beep on every input.

Thank you KVP. This sounds doable. Will go chat with my helpful colleagues.

 

One last question. Am I correct in assuming that there is no Kato sensor track that can be used? Is it possible to just use the sensor track in the Kato automatic crossing gate?

[kvp]

4 hours ago, Kiran said:

One last question. Am I correct in assuming that there is no Kato sensor track that can be used? Is it possible to just use the sensor track in the Kato automatic crossing gate?

The old style crossing gate had similar wheel sensors but all recent ones use upwards looking infrared gates. Using them is more tricky especially around curves or turnouts and they are somewhat sensitve to external light. Might be usable but i don't know how.

[Kiran]

Thanks kvp and others. I will of course update you on how I get along.

[nightshade]

I have both DC and DCC 

have the standard blue kato DC 

power pack and KC-1 / KM-1 

and also Digitrax Zephyr 

i run 2 trains on DC and 2 on DCC

( can always hook up the DC power pack as jump throtle - can use 2 if want ) - but also have PR3 

so can use Phone as Wi-fi throtle.

U can run DCC trains on DC 

( u got limited options tho ) 

but PWM power packs wont work with those.  For DCC i run my Up excursion with Athern challenger 

( orginal decoder in it - not as good as aftermarket decoders - but has the hand held to use sounds on DC :) ) .  For most Shinkansens u could use a wired decoder - i dont k ow if there any sound for those tho .... would not sugest running any DC trains on DCC tho .

I use dedicated teacks for either 

dc or dcc.   Sound is nice but that also depends on the decoder - and 

baffle for the speaker ..... 

dont have kato sound box .... 

i dont think its worth the money tho - same price as Zephyr itself .