JNR semaphore signals

[shadowtiger25]

Is there anyone who knows or can point me to where I can find info on these?

Or info on what signals where used on the hakodate main line in the late 60's early 70's?

[katoftw]

There was a fairly large discussion on semaphores recently. Hit the search bar. Hopefully that older discussion can help.

[kvp]

Also checking out the Tomix site may help too as they have a large selection of form signals with explanation on how to place and control them.

[bikkuri bahn]

Quote

Or info on what signals where used on the hakodate main line in the late 60's early 70's?

Which section, because the Hakodate Main Line is a line that stretches for 423 km from Hakodate to Asahikawa, with varying levels of traffic depending on the section.

I reckon the busier, merchandise freight/coal train heavy sections (Hakodate to Oshamambe) or Otaru to Asahikawa, primarily used automatic block signalling by the late 60's, as evidenced by this view of Yakumo Station in 1966:

https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/yuzu3ka/GALLERY/show_image_v2.html?id=https%3A%2F%2Fblog-001.west.edge.storage-yahoo.jp%2Fres%2Fblog-f8-84%2Fyuzu3ka%2Ffolder%2F443878%2F78%2F9563678%2Fimg_4%3F1343892359&i=1

 

Note this station is the standard JNR layout for a town/city of regional importance, with three platform faces, and varying numbers of auxiliary tracks, depending on through traffic levels and traffic-generating businesses nearby. In this particular picture, there is a center passing track for freights, being used here for what I believe is a down freight bound for Hakodate.

Edited October 16, 2018 by bikkuri bahn
addtl info

[shadowtiger25]

12 hours ago, bikkuri bahn said:

Which section, because the Hakodate Main Line is a line that stretches for 423 km from Hakodate to Asahikawa, with varying levels of traffic depending on the section.

I reckon the busier, merchandise freight/coal train heavy sections (Hakodate to Oshamambe) or Otaru to Asahikawa, primarily used automatic block signalling by the late 60's, as evidenced by this view of Yakumo Station in 1966:

https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/yuzu3ka/GALLERY/show_image_v2.html?id=https%3A%2F%2Fblog-001.west.edge.storage-yahoo.jp%2Fres%2Fblog-f8-84%2Fyuzu3ka%2Ffolder%2F443878%2F78%2F9563678%2Fimg_4%3F1343892359&i=1

 

Note this station is the standard JNR layout for a town/city of regional importance, with three platform faces, and varying numbers of auxiliary tracks, depending on through traffic levels and traffic-generating businesses nearby. In this particular picture, there is a center passing track for freights, being used here for what I believe is a down freight bound for Hakodate.

Hakodate through Sapporo, with a couple of branch lines that connect. I want to  make a model based on the route of the old type Nesiko Express in the last years it was pulled by the C62.

I'm trying to gather information for planning.

Edited October 16, 2018 by shadowtiger25

[bikkuri bahn]

It looks like the Hakodate Main Line was signaled with block signals, with some of the single track sections using a tablet system (specifically portions of the "mountain route" between Oshamambe and Otaru).  Only the branch lines used semaphore signals.

 

This has some interesting pictures of the mountain route, focusing on the D51 types which were used as dual-purpose locos on the freights and local passenger services.  

http://locomotivesteam.web.fc2.com/PhotoHakoD51s4142.htm

Edited October 17, 2018 by bikkuri bahn

[shadowtiger25]

I do plan on having a small fleet of D51's, so that gives me ideas for possible consists.

And thank you very much for the information.

You wouldn't happen to have a map of the line would you? I would really appreciate it, or a point towards where I can find that out. Frankly I dont know where to start with my research..

[kvp]

The linked site is very good. Actually it shows that the line was signalled with light signals. Tablet token operation only allows one train between two stations, with standard signals at each station. (entry and exit signals) It's usually employed with added telegraph or telephone communications but no signal interlocking between stations.

 

Imho the best way would be to start from wikipedia, get the map location and japanese written names of each station and try to find old pictures for each.

[bikkuri bahn]

If you are serious about prototype authenticity, my advice is to invest in some books.  The following book is in print and has track diagrams and gradient profiles (albeit tiny, you may need a magnifying glass to read them) of the mountain route of the Hakodate ML.  

https://www.amazon.co.jp/函館本線-C62-イカロス・ムック-椎橋-俊之/dp/4802205694

 

Tablet operation on the Hakodate Main Line at Ranshima (in 1986, but unchanged from 15 or 20 years prior)

 

[marknewton]

Great video you linked, bb. Real safeworking! 🙂

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

6 hours ago, kvp said:

Tablet token operation only allows one train between two stations, with standard signals at each station. (entry and exit signals) It's usually employed with added telegraph or telephone communications but no signal interlocking between stations.

 

In token operation the tablet or staff instruments are interlocked with each other, permission to withdraw a token being given by bell codes between the safeworking employees at either end of the section, and then holding down the releasing plunger or switch. And in some locations the starting signal of a station was interlocked with the token instrument of the next station in advance, similar to some applications of block telegraph working. 

 

Possession of the token allows only one train in the section at a time. That section may be between two stations, or between a station and a block post. A block post has a token instrument but no crossing loop or passing siding. They were used to divide a long section into  shorter sections to allow more trains to run in the same direction,  and could be switched in and out as required.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

13 hours ago, bikkuri bahn said:

This has some interesting pictures of the mountain route, focusing on the D51 types which were used as dual-purpose locos on the freights and local passenger services.  

http://locomotivesteam.web.fc2.com/PhotoHakoD51s4142.htm

 

Beautiful! Even if you had no interest whatsoever in trains or railways, you could still enjoy these photos as works of art.

 

Thanks for the link!

 

Mark.

[shadowtiger25]

8 hours ago, bikkuri bahn said:

If you are serious about prototype authenticity, my advice is to invest in some books.  The following book is in print and has track diagrams and gradient profiles (albeit tiny, you may need a magnifying glass to read them) of the mountain route of the Hakodate ML.  

https://www.amazon.co.jp/函館本線-C62-イカロス・ムック-椎橋-俊之/dp/4802205694

 

Yes, I'm one of those insane guys that wants a miniature railroad, and operate it like one to. Simulated schedules, simulated consists and waybills, and of course signals.

Always been a fan of railroads, but I love the feel of operations rather than just running trains in a circle.

The club I was a member at in WV had an impressive model, but it got quite boring for me just watching everything go by, and look like trains, but not act like trains.. 

Plus, if I'm going to sink a lot of money in to this hobby, I want to go authentic

 

Now I just need to learn Japanese so i can read those books...

Edited October 17, 2018 by shadowtiger25

[kvp]

1 hour ago, shadowtiger25 said:

Yes, I'm one of those insane guys that wants a miniature railroad, and operate it like one to. 

Imho you'll quickly see that even N is not small enough for realism unless you compress a lot of things.

1 hour ago, shadowtiger25 said:

Now I just need to learn Japanese so i can read those books...

Or just get a smartphone with the google translate application as it can read and translate japanese text.

[shadowtiger25]

6 minutes ago, kvp said:

Imho you'll quickly see that even N is not small enough for realism unless you compress a lot of things.

I do realize this. It mostly will depend on space available, and I know I can't do it to the scale mile. BUT I want to get as close as I can. If nothing else, I want to do the "mountain route" between Oshamambe and Otaru. I like this area, and reminds me of the place I grew up in.

12 minutes ago, kvp said:

Or just get a smartphone with the google translate application as it can read and translate japanese text.

Its.. awkward to use. 

[ben_issacs]

Folks, 

I noticed that on some Japanese steam locos there was a device on the cab side which was obviously a tablet catcher.

Was tablet exchanging done at any sort of high speed, say 50mph?

Here in Victoria, most steam locos and some diesels had staff exchangers for the miniature electric staffs, and these could be exchanged at high speeds, and also dropped, when the train had to stop and the crew go back alongside the track to find the dropped staff, good fun on a dark night!

Mark,  did the NSW locos have staff exchangers, I cannot remember if this was so there!

Regards, 

Bill, 

Melbourne.

 

[marknewton]

Bill,

There’s a couple of films on YouTube that show the tablet being exchanged at track speed. Tablet catchers were also fitted to diesel and electric locos, as well as DMU and EMU cars. 

 

And yes, staff exchange equipment was fitted to most NSWGR diesels, as well as some steam locos, mainly 36 and 38 class.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[scotspensioner]

It appears that the semaphore signals in Japan were based on the British system which is still in use in some places.

It lasted a long time even on main lines .The East Coast mainline here only went over to Automatic Colour Light in 1986 for example, but the masts dated back to the 1900s in some cases!

[katoftw]

Well since the brits introduced railways to Japan. It makes sense the systems are based on British railways.

Edited December 15, 2018 by katoftw

[marknewton]

2 hours ago, scotspensioner said:

It appears that the semaphore signals in Japan were based on the British system

 

Initially, yes. Both McKenzie & Holland and Saxby & Farmer supplied mechanical signalling equipment and safeworking gear such as block, token or staff instruments to railways in Japan. As the network developed local suppliers came to dominate the market, and the actual signalling equipment and methods of working were modified from the British model to suit the local requirements. Once colour light signalling was introduced to Japan, US influence and practices became apparent.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[ben_issacs]

Folks, 

Japanese semaphore signals, lower quadrant, were in general similar to the British pattern, with the home arms being red with a white vertical band.

The distants were yellow, with a black band, but in contrast to the British distants, which had forked ends, the Japanese distant arms had what I'll call 'bell' ends, where the end of the arm past the black band tapered outwards .

The Japanese must have had supplementary signals such as shunting and ground signals, but I've no details of these.

Did Japan go straight from lower quadrant semaphores to colour light, or was there an intermediate era of upper quadrant electrically operated semaphores?

And did the various private railways have different systems to the Govt. line?

Regards, 

Bill, 

Melbourne.

 

[katoftw]

19 minutes ago, ben_issacs said:

The distants were yellow, with a black band, but in contrast to the British distants, which had forked ends, the Japanese distant arms had what I'll call 'bell' ends, where the end of the arm past the black band tapered outwards .

The Japanese must have had supplementary signals such as shunting and ground signals, but I've no details of these.

https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/report/n/nj_128.htm

[marknewton]

Two useful introductions to Japanese signalling:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_railway_signals

 

https://www.isi.edu/~braden/japan_RR_signals/index.html

 

This site is worth translating, as it deals with mechanical signalling and safeworking equipment:

 

http://www.lazyjack.co.jp/home/non.php

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

 

[lighthouse]

I think I saw that 2 signals stood side by side on one side of the track. Unfortunately, I do not know if this is a common lineup, but I can´t find the picture / video anymore. Can someone say something to that? * I think it was seen on a branch line on Hokkaido?

[katoftw]

Plenty of links above explaining that. Tallest middle you is straight through. First small on left is line of main to the keft. Second smaller on left is another line to the left.

 

Same applies to the right etc.